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Java Forum / General / April 2008Declining Popularity of Java?
Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of Java? When I search the major job boards, and compare the quantity of Java searches with C#, using just those search terms, Java comes back with more hits. But if I exclude occurances where "Java" occurs inside Javascript, it looks like C# generally has Java beat in terms of quantity of jobs available by a roughly 2:1 ration. Obviously javascript itself applies to web browsers thus all Internet related development, regardless of the back end language. I've been doing both languages for some time and I am finding my client's generally more satisfied with the solutions we delivered in C#. Any thoughts on future trends? Please no language flamewars, I am looking for legitimate discussions. I was one of the original proponents of Java but I'm seeing some major shifts in the industry here. >Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of .. ..posting advocacy based matters to a tech. group? I sure have. Please put it to c.l.j.advocacy, where I do not have to care.  SignatureAndrew Thompson http://www.physci.org/ >>Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of .. > >.posting advocacy based matters to a tech. group? I sure have. >Please put it to c.l.j.advocacy, where I do not have to care. That newsgroup is for advocating java. I'm not advocating java. I'm advocating the notion of others engaging me in a discussion about whether or not java is a still a viable language to focus on or if recent trends are pushing it out the door. >>>Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of .. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >whether or not java is a still a viable language to focus on or if >recent trends are pushing it out the door. Yet your first reply was to me, as opposed to the other responder who spoke entirely 'to your topic'. 'nuff said. SignatureAndrew Thompson http://www.physci.org/ >>>>Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of .. >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >other responder who spoke entirely 'to your topic'. >'nuff said. What kind of logic is that? I sure hope you don't develop software with that sort of thought flow, or at least that nobody is fool enough to pay you to do so. >>>> Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of .. >>> .posting advocacy based matters to a tech. group? I sure have. >>> Please put it to c.l.j.advocacy, where I do not have to care. >> That newsgroup is for advocating java. I'm not advocating java. >> I'm advocating the notion of others engaging me in a discussion about >> whether or not java is a still a viable language to focus on or if >> recent trends are pushing it out the door. > Yet your first reply was to me, as opposed to the > other responder who spoke entirely 'to your topic'. > 'nuff said. Seems to me you received a rational answer to why the OP was here and not in an advocacy group. Your second reply strikes me to be a bit out of porportion to the reasonable explanation offered to your first reply, which was clearly intended to be a slap in the face for raising the question here in the first place. I'm here as a student of the language, all aspects of the language, and I've gleaned a wealth of information from posters like you and others. However, I'm finding your contribution to this particular thread not quite on par with what I've come to expect from you. AL >>>>> Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of .. > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >AL Yeah, he seems a little bitter and defensive, doesn't he. Maybe the cause lies here: http://tinyurl.com/255kr2 Keep in mind I have a lot of java on my resume thus an interest in not seeing it fizzle out, but this is the feeling I am getting more and more so I am interested in sharing ideas on the subject. >>>>>> Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of .. >>>>> .posting advocacy based matters to a tech. group? I sure have. >>>>> Please put it to c.l.j.advocacy, where I do not have to care. >>>> That newsgroup is for advocating java. I'm not advocating java. >>>> I'm advocating the notion of others engaging me in a discussion about >>>> whether or not java is a still a viable language to focus on or if >>>> recent trends are pushing it out the door. >>> Yet your first reply was to me, as opposed to the >>> other responder who spoke entirely 'to your topic'. >>> 'nuff said. >> Seems to me you received a rational answer to why the OP was here and >> not in an advocacy group. Your second reply strikes me to be a bit out [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> contribution to this particular thread not quite on par with what I've >> come to expect from you. >> AL > Yeah, he seems a little bitter and defensive, doesn't he. Maybe the > cause lies here: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > seeing it fizzle out, but this is the feeling I am getting more and > more so I am interested in sharing ideas on the subject. I have an interest as well - given my limited resources to re-program myself in the event a post-early-retirement opportunity arises. Once, when I came to a fork in the road where I needed to decide C++ or Java, I choose Java - or should I say, I took the fork... Interesting to read in the article you cite that Java is the new Cobol. BTW you JAVA kids used to call mainframe cobol guys like me dinosaurs - how's it feel now? - (heh heh heh). Oh great I thought after reading the article, its Deja Vu all over again. Oh well, I'm not looking for a new career, just some interesting work to see me thru till I find myself sitting at the old folks home playing 'find yer foot'. BUT, I do have a daughter studying engineering and possibly computer science, so I do have more than a mild passing interest in the future of Java. I invite your inquiry and will be watching the thread with interest. AL > Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of > Java? Not really. Measuring language popularity is difficult, but the statistics I've seen invariably show the triumvirate of Java, C, and C++ at the top with other languages languishing by a long shot. > When I search the major job boards, and compare the quantity of Java > searches with C#, using just those search terms, Java comes back with > more hits. Are you sure `C#' isn't also catching `C' or `C++'? > I've been doing both languages for some time and I am finding my > client's generally more satisfied with the solutions we delivered in > C#. Java is the predominant "beginner's language"--the one taught in introductory courses. It therefore stands to reason that it will have a little less competency on average than other languages. Besides, other factors can come into play (Java GUI apps tend to use Swing with the cross-platform LAF, which mayn't look sufficiently like the Windows LAF for some). SignatureBeware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth > Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of > Java? > [snip] I don't know about changes, but when I look on job boards, I'm seeing more ads for ".net" programmers than for Java. One college that uses Java as its main language for coursework looks to hire ".net" programmers. >> Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of >> Java? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >One college that uses Java as its main language for coursework looks to >hire ".net" programmers. I think a lot of that has to do with the declining relevance of Linux. For maybe 12 or 13 years now I've been hearing about how Linux was going to take over. It has always had it's small niche following but never quite overtook Microsoft, and it seems to be on the retreat these days. Java's primary appeal was the cross platform thing. Who care's when nobody is using any other platform? >>> Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of >>> Java? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Java's primary appeal was the cross platform thing. Who care's when >nobody is using any other platform? I disagree. Linux has done very well in the server market. What do you think is powering Google? Linux is a niche player in the desktop market. In the early days, Java's primary appeal was its cross platform capability. But starting in the late 90's/2000, its ability to do server work lead to Java's growth. It still does guite well there IMO. Windows is getting better, but if you have an application that needs to be up 24x7, you want a 'Nix server. Period. And Java will serve you well. That's my off topic 2 cents. Eric >>>> Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of >>>> Java? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >I disagree. Linux has done very well in the server market. What do you think >is powering Google? Linux is a niche player in the desktop market. Google is a nice search engine. That's all. I don't personally know of anyone using any Google product for anything but simply searching the web. >In the early days, Java's primary appeal was its cross platform capability. >But starting in the late 90's/2000, its ability to do server work lead to >Java's growth. It still does guite well there IMO. > >Windows is getting better, but if you have an application that needs to be up >24x7, you want a 'Nix server. Period. And Java will serve you well. That's BS. I've got 4 Windows 2003 web servers at work that have been up 24x7 serving a mission critical application since early 2005. Linux does not even have POSIX compliant threads without phony add on solution that partially achieve said goal! So much for scalability. I agree AIX and Solaris are acceptable for building scalable multithreaded solutions, but that's not Linux, they cost money just like Windows Server does.... and, if you recall I was talking about Linux, not 'Nix. >>In article <1sqdo3196vhl7h2a9h98c07jtm9a97dph1@4ax.com>, Phister > <3123123482340293823@324022123193423.COM> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >That's BS. I've got 4 Windows 2003 web servers at work that have been >up 24x7 serving a mission critical application since early 2005. It may be a function of what you run on those servers. My company was using Win 2003 servers running Oracle, and they had to be rebooted regularly. We switched to Redhat recently. No need to reboot. I'm impressed that your Win servers have been up for 3 years. They really are getting better. >Linux does not even have POSIX compliant threads without phony add on >solution that partially achieve said goal! So much for scalability. I >agree AIX and Solaris are acceptable for building scalable >multithreaded solutions, but that's not Linux, they cost money just >like Windows Server does.... and, if you recall I was talking about >Linux, not 'Nix. I agree with much of what you say here. Linux threading could be better. AIX and Solaris, aside from the cost, are preferable to Linux for scalabilty. But Linux is pretty good, and given the cost of 'puters these days, you can do a lot with Linux boxes. Eric Eric >>>In article <1sqdo3196vhl7h2a9h98c07jtm9a97dph1@4ax.com>, Phister >> <3123123482340293823@324022123193423.COM> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Win 2003 servers running Oracle, and they had to be rebooted regularly. We >switched to Redhat recently. No need to reboot. See that's the problem. Oracle is trying cash in on their brand name, which has been around for a lot longer than SQL Server, but SQL Server has many fundamental architechtural advantages over Oracle when it comes to scalability. I've developed software for both, which use SQL-92 compliant syntax, and on equivalent hardware SQL Server is both faster in the short term and more scalable in the long term. I dare anyone to challenge my statement and provide contradictory evidence against my statement that SQL Server is both faster on a small scale and more scalable on a large scale. I have deployed commerical software for both and SQL Server is superior in every way. There was a time when Unix hardware was superior but the latest Intel processors have changed that in the last few years. >I'm impressed that your Win servers have been up for 3 years. They really are >getting better. There was a time when I could not have recommended them for mission critical operations, but yes, they have gotten better, and dollar for dollar they are as good as it gets these days. >>Linux does not even have POSIX compliant threads without phony add on >>solution that partially achieve said goal! So much for scalability. I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Linux is pretty good, and given the cost of 'puters these days, you can do a >lot with Linux boxes. Linux is a great freeware OS. Like most free software, worth every penny :) We're at 13 years now, with at least another 5 years in legacy status. That is undeniably an aging product. I just read all of the articles referenced in this thread, and I don't see how you can argue against the evidence that Java is on the decline. That's not something I wanted to hear either. >>>> In article <1sqdo3196vhl7h2a9h98c07jtm9a97dph1@4ax.com>, Phister >>> <3123123482340293823@324022123193423.COM> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > Linux is a great freeware OS. Like most free software, worth every > penny :) >>> Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of >>> Java? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Java's primary appeal was the cross platform thing. Who care's when > nobody is using any other platform? I totally disagree. What makes you think that Linux' relevance is declining ? I don't know about the rest of the world but in many european countries the governments are starting to require that all government offices are using open formats and spend less money on software, and they are looking more and more towards Linux. Both for server side and desktops. South american countries have been Linux advocates for many years, and with easy to use and install distros like Ubuntu more and more people are switching. >>>> Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of >>>> Java? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >software, and they are looking more and more towards Linux. Both for >server side and desktops. There was a trend of that in the US about 4-5 years ago but the pendulum has been swinging back to Windows as most of those projects failed for one reason or another. >South american countries have been Linux advocates for many years, and >with easy to use and install distros like Ubuntu more and more people >are switching. Poverty stricken areas have always been attracted to the allure of free software. Whether or not the fact that Linux has some fundamental architectural flaws that limit scalability will matter to them might depend on how far they really want to take technology. Meanwhile, Linux is getting slowly but surely wiped out here in the US. And Java is dying. http://weblog.infoworld.com/techwatch/archives/014981.html > There was a trend of that in the US about 4-5 years ago but the pendulum > has been swinging back to Windows as most of those projects failed for > one reason or another. Shame the US's influence along with their status of the world's super power is going down the drain. Also, I'm not sure where you're getting your information from seeing how the whole world is moving towards more open formats. That is why their is battle between ODF and OOXML and that includes the US. People realised that if you stick with proprietary formats then you can lose old data because you have to rely on one company to give you access to it. I'm a supporter of ODF but even if OOXML wins out the point is that Office becomes less relevant and quite frankly there will be less of a reason to avoid Open Office which, it happens, also uses Java. This trend will continue as people demand to have the safety of always being able to access their data and not as and when one company says they can. > Poverty stricken areas have always been attracted to the allure of free > software. Whether or not the fact that Linux has some fundamental > architectural flaws that limit scalability will matter to them might > depend on how far they really want to take technology. > > Meanwhile, Linux is getting slowly but surely wiped out here in the US. I wouldn't call China poverty stricken. After all they're going to be the US's master in the near future and nor is the EU. As I mentioned earlier Linux is growing in Hollywood and it is slowly growing in the education sector. People are probably getting scared by the fact it's quite obvious Microsoft wants to control all aspects of computing (the language, the server, the desktop, consoles, mobiles, etc) and anyone with half a brain realises that it dangerous and would do something to avoid that. But you are right the US will probably hold onto MS a little longer than others because it's about the only thing profitable in the US and Americans are nationalists a bit more than other countries but the end users in the US will catch on too. > And Java is dying. > > http://weblog.infoworld.com/techwatch/archives/014981.html No, it's just that idiots want to program too so they're choosing a child's language like .Net but that won't last. There are far too many open and free options that are superior. >>> Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of >>> Java? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Java's primary appeal was the cross platform thing. Who care's when > nobody is using any other platform? Someone has been drinking too much of the kool-aid in Redmond Wa. Linux has more relevance than ever before. Linux owns the server market because quite frankly running anything by MS on a server is just asking for trouble. Linux's role in hollywood is growing with software like Cinepaint (Film Gimp). Linux runs more DVD players and other appliances than Windows and Linux is in the best position to own the next big market, mini-laptops. That is why MS is ditching XP except for the laptop market. They don't have an OS that can run a PC like the EEE other than XP and they can't afford to be shut out of that market. The only area Linux isn't doing great is on the Desktop but even that is growing thanks to MS trying to dominate console gaming. the Xbox and 360 have taken their efforts away from PC gaming and that is the only benefit Windows has over Linux and that is why they're coming back to PC gaming and trying to get that going again. Java's benefit is that it can run anywhere which it does. It's on phones, Blu-ray and DVD players. It's in cars, on the web. It's everywhere. Java is not dying. .Net is growing but that is because a lot of countries are short of good programmers so they take on programming languages aimed at the mentally slow just to get someone who can code. BTW, my company, thank god, is ditching Windows and ASP in favor of JBoss. So that's one less large company handicapped by a poor web environment. >> Has anyone else been sensing a widespread decline in the popularity of >> Java? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > One college that uses Java as its main language for coursework looks to > hire ".net" programmers. The only reason people like .Net is because any idiot can knock out a program. Mind you there is a good chance it'll be poorly coded and unoptimised but who cares. MS can't even code a decent OS. They certainly don't want anyone coding better than them. Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. 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