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Java Forum / General / February 2007Using Visual J# in a first programming course.
I'm considering using VJ# in a first programming course in addition to or in place of JBuilder and the J2SE. Given install problems other students have had, VJ# seems like a nice alternative. I expect criticism. But: 1. Most of my students are using WinXP. 2. VJ#.Net Express is free and has an outstanding GUI. 3. Code written in VJ#, via the Mono Project could always be ported to other platforms. 4. Java compiler source seems close to moving into Open Source - I think! What is the groups opinion TIA Bob >I'm considering using VJ# in a first programming course in addition to or in >place of JBuilder and the J2SE. Given install problems other students have >had, VJ# seems like a nice alternative. Don't call it Java if you do so, though - be clear to your students that VJ# is a different language than Java, and you're using it because they're too dumb to install the real thing. Actually, you're probably better off teaching C# if you want to show off Microsoft developer technologies. It's pretty good, well-supported, and has LOTS of documentation. J# is loved by nobody and has no reason to exist. For me, I'd rather teach or learn Java, but I wouldn't bother with JBuilder or any other IDE. If you're teaching intro programming, teach command-line tools. Edit with whatever editor they like, compile with javac, run with java. A lot depends on what you want the course to teach. If it's "show some people some cool, easy, stuff to do with computers that's kind of like programming", then C# is almost certainly what you want. If it's "prepare for life as a grunt developer who doesn't really understand what programming is", then Java or C# are fine, depending on what job you want them to seek. If it's "learn data structures, computational complexity, and how to write and debug computer programs", then Java or C# are good choices (as would be Python, C++, or any modern OO language in wide use), but don't use a development environment. Use a command-line compiler, and give assignments that can be done using whatever editing tools the students like. >1. Most of my students are using WinXP. >2. VJ#.Net Express is free and has an outstanding GUI. >3. Code written in VJ#, via the Mono Project could always be ported to other >platforms. Sure. All of these apply to C# as well, and it's a language that may actually be useful to students. Or to Java, for that matter. J# has the advantages of neither. >4. Java compiler source seems close to moving into Open Source - I think! Even if it does, the Java trademark will likely be retained by Sun, and only applicable to implementations of the JLS. Which .Net isn't. -- Mark Rafn dagon@dagon.net <http://www.dagon.net/> Thank you Mark for your comments. I also support a C# course in the course offerings. From your reply, I suspect that you think most Java developers spend most of their time writing applications without the use of an IDE with GUI support. If this is true, what is your basis ? ... Just curious! I appreciate your comments on using an editor, javac and java. I on the otherhand appreciate the power and felxibility of IDEs. To each his own. Again, thanks for your input. Bob --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I'm considering using VJ# in a first programming course in addition to or > >in [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > -- > Mark Rafn dagon@dagon.net <http://www.dagon.net/> > Thank you Mark for your comments. I also support a C# course in the course > offerings. [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] >> -- >> Mark Rafn dagon@dagon.net <http://www.dagon.net/> Bob because you do not want to spend valuable time teaching them how to use a professional sized IDE. It is far far more important to concentrate on the language. Hence, editor javac and java. If you really, really want then to use an IDE then pick one that are developed and used in the educational institutions. Example: To teach the Java language with an OOD\OOP emphasis then look at: BlueJ: http://www.bluej.org Or another one would be JGRASP: http://www.jgrasp.org  SignatureThanks in Advance... http://ichbinquotations.awardspace.com IchBin, Pocono Lake, Pa, USA http://ichbin.9999mb.com ______________________________________________________________________ 'If there is one, Knowledge is the "Fountain of Youth"' -William E. Taylor, Regular Guy (1952-) >From your reply, I suspect that you think most Java developers spend most >of their time writing applications without the use of an IDE with GUI >support. Goodness, no! The vast majority of Java developers use an IDE. With good reason - IDEs take a lot of hassle out of developing any but the tiniest of projects. For actual work, a good IDE about triples my productivity over using vi. I use Eclipse every day, and others for specific tasks or when I'm evaluating changing. I wrote a good portion of Weblogic Workshop when I worked for BEA, and we spent a LOT of time thinking and experimenting about what makes an IDE useful (and harmful, in some cases) for various types of development. I heartily encourage the use of an IDE for writing real code. I think it's a horrible idea to use an IDE for an intoductory programming course. These are not contradictory statements. Using an IDE for a course where the students are writing a complete application, with hundreds of classes, lots of dependencies, and a lot of complexity is quite reasonable. But you wouldn't do that until they knew enough about programming and the Java language that they can choose whatever IDE they like, and install and maintain it without it being part of the class. For an intro class, you'll be covering the basics, each of which requires only a few source files, with simple commandline compile and run. Even if you wanted to include IDE use in the class (as one of the later lessons), you'd want to do an overview of a few of them rather than picking one and forcing everyone to use it. >If this is true, what is your basis ? ... Just curious! My basis is that the IDE hides a lot of complexity, and that hiding is good only AFTER the complexity is understood well enough for the programmer to know when and how to un-hide it. -- Mark Rafn dagon@dagon.net <http://www.dagon.net/> Mark Rafn... > For an intro class, you'll be covering the basics, each of which requires only > a few source files, with simple commandline compile and run. A good IDE I recommend for all who just started programming in Java http://www.bluej.org/download/download.html It is used at Colleges all over the world. SignatureJoanna Bob Palank wrote: >> 4. Java compiler source seems close to moving into Open Source - I think! How could that pose any difficulty? > Even if it does, the Java trademark will likely be retained by Sun, and only > applicable to implementations of the JLS. Which .Net isn't. - Lew Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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