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Java Forum / Tools / May 2004Request Opinions on a typical Java development environment (non-Windows)
Hi, I'm a recent convert to the Linux community and was wondering if someone could provide me with some pointers on how I should go about my Java development. Here are my questions. what linux flavour should I use? red-hat, gentoo, suse, etc... what linux gui should i use? gnome or kde (are there others?) what java ide exists on linux? i've heard of eclipse, is this is the best? what web server should i set up? is this apache? (are there others) what database can i use while developing? (no clue here) I'm hoping that some Linux based Java developers read this post, all i'm looking for is a breakdown of what's on your workstation. Any help here would be greatly appreciated. Kal. > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > what linux flavour should I use? red-hat, gentoo, suse, etc... any > what linux gui should i use? gnome or kde (are there others?) any > what java ide exists on linux? i've heard of eclipse, is this is the > best? netbeans eclipse the best is... i'm not going to start a holy war... > what web server should i set up? is this apache? (are there others) > what database can i use while developing? (no clue here) any that has a jdbc driver available, like MySQL, firebird... > I'm hoping that some Linux based Java developers read this post, all > i'm looking for is a breakdown of what's on your workstation. mine is NetBeans (on Fedora core 1/KDE and on Windows XP), and MySQL on both OS's but I'm not a professional developer. >> what java ide exists on linux? i've heard of eclipse, is this is the >> best? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > the best is... i'm not going to start a holy war... I just saw a thread - if not here then on comp.lang.java.developer - to the effect that the Eclipse GUI is very slow in at least some Linux environments due to SWT issues. This might be specific to Gnome or KDE, can't remember. Look it up. > > Hi, > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > the best is... i'm not going to start a holy war... My personal fav is eclipse though I did not use it on Linux (yet). > > what web server should i set up? is this apache? (are there others) > > what database can i use while developing? (no clue here) > > any that has a jdbc driver available, like MySQL, firebird... ... postgresSql > > I'm hoping that some Linux based Java developers read this post, all > > i'm looking for is a breakdown of what's on your workstation. > > mine is NetBeans (on Fedora core 1/KDE and on Windows XP), and MySQL on > both OS's but I'm not a professional developer. robert Ok, so far here is the list that I've created. I've tried to go with ease of installation and support (i hope i'm not way off on this): os: fedora (i tried gentoo got hopelessly stuck, i also have debian, but haven't tried it out yet) Editor/IDE: Eclipse junit for tests (xp style) Version control: CVS? still no idea about my webserver etc... what's the difference between tomcat and apache, does one run with the other? which one will serve my jsp and web services? my goal is to develop a website in jsp with ejb's and then host on the same machine while testing. this machine will also provide web services written in java. this machine will sit on my lan. i will consume its webservices from a .net server. i've pretty much got the windows technology covered, but am stuggling with the linux solution. thank you all so far. Kal. > Ok, so far here is the list that I've created. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > junit for tests (xp style) > Version control: CVS? I would recommend you go with Subversion instead of CVS. It is meant to be an open source replacement for CVS and works quite nicely. There is an Eclipse plug-in called Subclipse and also a nice Windows explorer addition called TortoiseSVN. See: http://subversion.tigris.org > what's the difference between tomcat and apache, does one run with the > other? which one will serve my jsp and web services? Tomcat is a servlet engine and handles jsp and servlet pages. Apache is an http server. Typically you need both. You use apache to serve your satic webpages and proxy that over to tomcat for the dynamic stuff. Theoretically you could use just Tomcat, but such use is not recommended. See the following for more info: http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-3.2-doc/tomcat-apache-howto.html -- Dale King Blog: http://daleking.homedns.org/Blog >I would recommend you go with Subversion instead of CVS. It is meant to be >an open source replacement for CVS and works quite nicely. Subversion has its own server right? So you can't switch to a Subversion client unless you can persuade the whole team to go that way too. -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary. > > what's the difference between tomcat and apache, does one run with the > > other? which one will serve my jsp and web services? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > webpages and proxy that over to tomcat for the dynamic stuff. Theoretically > you could use just Tomcat, but such use is not recommended. I beg to differ: using Tomcat for static content is sufficient for many installations and it reduces deployment complexity significantly. I'd use the tandem *only* if i) you are building a high traffic site, ii) there is a significant amount of static data (images, downloads...) and iii) it is crucial to get these across as fast as possible. Otherwise I'd stick with tomcat. It isn't really that slow for static content. IMHO the limiting factor is rather OS and disk instead of Tomcat's Java implementation. Regards robert > > > what's the difference between tomcat and apache, does one run with the > > > other? which one will serve my jsp and web services? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > tomcat. It isn't really that slow for static content. IMHO the limiting > factor is rather OS and disk instead of Tomcat's Java implementation. None of which disagrees with what I said. You can use just Tomcat and that is sufficient for some applications. I didn't say it was impossible to use just Tomcat but that it is not recommended. You will find many places on the web saying that you should use Tomcat through Apache. I posted a link to one site that explains why. Here is another: http://www.idevelopment.info/data/Programming/web/connecting_apache_tomcat/W eb_Server_Connectors.shtml If none of those reasons are a concern to you, then there is no reason to use Apache. Of course they may become a concern later and you might have to switch later anyway. -- Dale King Blog: http://daleking.homedns.org/Blog > > > > what's the difference between tomcat and apache, does one run with the > > > > other? which one will serve my jsp and web services? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > web saying that you should use Tomcat through Apache. I posted a link to one > site that explains why. Here is another: http://www.idevelopment.info/data/Programming/web/connecting_apache_tomcat/W > eb_Server_Connectors.shtml Do you have any information on how old this is? There are issues that are simply not true (any more). Tomcat is in fact able to do virtual hosting. And with a website with a lot of dynamics it doesn't really matter whether it's "only" the dynamic part that comes down or the complete thing. Also, Tomcat does support CGI. And as I said, it's not necessarily slower for static content. I still don't subscribe to that "it's not recommended to use tomcat alone". robert > > > I beg to differ: using Tomcat for static content is sufficient for > many [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > one > > site that explains why. Here is another: http://www.idevelopment.info/data/Programming/web/connecting_apache_tomcat/W > > eb_Server_Connectors.shtml > > Do you have any information on how old this is? Well here is the current information from the latest documentation for Tomcat. I don't think it gets any more recent than that: http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/faq/connectors.html#integrate > There are issues that are > simply not true (any more). So what? There are still many issues that are still true. For example, in my case I have subversion running with Apache. I'm not aware of a way to run that with just Tomcat. That is only one example. > Tomcat is in fact able to do virtual hosting. > And with a website with a lot of dynamics it doesn't really matter whether > it's "only" the dynamic part that comes down or the complete thing. Also, > Tomcat does support CGI. And as I said, it's not necessarily slower for > static content. Great! It is narrowing the gap, but there are still plenty of reasons to choose the combination. The OP didn't even seem to know the difference between Apache and Tomcat so is definitely not the type of person I would recommend to go with a Tomcat only install. > I still don't subscribe to that "it's not recommended to use tomcat > alone". I've given you several examples where it is recommended that you install Apache with Tomcat. I don't see anyone who universally recommends Tomcat alone. The best I see is that it might be good enough for you, which I don't disagree with. The point of my post was not to disparage Tomcat, but simply to explain what it and Apache were to the OP, who didn't know. -- Dale King Blog: http://daleking.homedns.org/Blog > > > > I beg to differ: using Tomcat for static content is sufficient for > > many [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > one > > > site that explains why. Here is another: http://www.idevelopment.info/data/Programming/web/connecting_apache_tomcat/W > > > eb_Server_Connectors.shtml > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > between Apache and Tomcat so is definitely not the type of person I would > recommend to go with a Tomcat only install. So you're recommending the more complex scenario to someone who isn't even that proficient that he knows the difference... If developing a Java based webapp I'd recommend to start with Tomcat alone (which is simpler to set up) and go for Apache only, if it is needed (be the reason speed, features or security). > > I still don't subscribe to that "it's not recommended to use tomcat > > alone". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > alone. The best I see is that it might be good enough for you, which I don't > disagree with. Well, I didn't say that there are not plenty of situations where you need both. I simply disagree to the statement that it's *generally* recommended to use both. It's totally dependend on the situation at hand. There are lots of situations where you can go with tomcat alone and lots of others where you need / want both. Regards robert > > > > > I beg to differ: using Tomcat for static content is sufficient for > > > many [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > > one > > > > site that explains why. Here is another: http://www.idevelopment.info/data/Programming/web/connecting_apache_tomcat/W > > > > eb_Server_Connectors.shtml > > > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > So you're recommending the more complex scenario to someone who isn't even > that proficient that he knows the difference... The added complexity is minimal. Basic apache setup is pretty easy. > If developing a Java based webapp I'd recommend to start with Tomcat alone > (which is simpler to set up) and go for Apache only, if it is needed (be > the reason speed, features or security). If it was a webapp alone I'd probably recommend the same. If you start talking about setting up an entire site with a broader scope the odds that you will need Apache are fairl great. > Well, I didn't say that there are not plenty of situations where you need > both. I simply disagree to the statement that it's *generally* > recommended to use both. It's totally dependend on the situation at hand. > There are lots of situations where you can go with tomcat alone and lots > of others where you need / want both. Then we don't seem to be in any real disagreement. The only dispute is on how likely it is that you will need Apache. You make it sound like it is rare when you need it and I think typically you will need it. -- Dale King Blog: http://daleking.homedns.org/Blog <snip/> > > So you're recommending the more complex scenario to someone who isn't even > > that proficient that he knows the difference... > > The added complexity is minimal. Basic apache setup is pretty easy. From my experience it's not that easy, especially regarding versions of the connector. But maybe that was only due to a messed up setup from a colleague... > > If developing a Java based webapp I'd recommend to start with Tomcat alone > > (which is simpler to set up) and go for Apache only, if it is needed (be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > talking about setting up an entire site with a broader scope the odds that > you will need Apache are fairl great. D'accord. > > Well, I didn't say that there are not plenty of situations where you need > > both. I simply disagree to the statement that it's *generally* [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Then we don't seem to be in any real disagreement. :-) > The only dispute is on > how likely it is that you will need Apache. You make it sound like it is > rare I didn't want to. I am sorry, if that got distorted. My point is just "it depends" and not "generally". :-) > when you need it and I think typically you will need it. Well, that certainly depends on our personal histories... Regards robert I found a really cool Java dev system that is easy to use and you don't have to write code, it does it automatically once you diagram out the business processes. It works with JBoss and MySql but its FREE. You can download it from www.skywaybuilder.com > <snip/> > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > robert Firstly I should point out that the typical development environment for Java is Linux. > what linux flavour should I use? red-hat, gentoo, suse, etc... Any will work fine. Personally I'd avoid the commercial ones though and either go with debian or start from scratch (although starting from scratch would be hard for a non-Linux user) > what linux gui should i use? gnome or kde (are there others?) X-Windows :-) Then install a load of window managers until you decide which one you like - it's entirely a matter of personal choice. > what java ide exists on linux? i've heard of eclipse, is this is the > best? Other than Microsoft's (which doesn't really count in Windows anyway) all the common ides have Linux versions, and probably a few that don't exist in Windows. > what web server should i set up? is this apache? (are there others) If I were going to set up a web server on Linux I'd use Apache (but if I were then I wouldn't be running my IDE and developing on that machine) > what database can i use while developing? (no clue here) Whatever you like really. Except MS SQL server. Alun Harford Oracle JDeveloper works great on Linux. http://otn.oracle.com/products/jdev > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > what linux flavour should I use? red-hat, gentoo, suse, etc... does not really matter since i dont know if any of them comes with a JDK. you ought to download it from the Sun web site and install it. > what linux gui should i use? gnome or kde (are there others?) Again, it does not matter. > what java ide exists on linux? i've heard of eclipse, is this is the > best? It is indeed a great IDE. But as a beginner, I would say - do not use any IDEs. Start with a good old editor - vim ( or emacs, your choice ). > what web server should i set up? is this apache? (are there others) apache should do it. > what database can i use while developing? (no clue here) Go for mysql . You may need to separately install the mysql JDBC drivers to get started. Have fun with Java. HTH  SignatureKarthik ------ Human Beings please 'removeme' for my email. >> what linux gui should i use? gnome or kde (are there others?) > >Again, it does not matter. how could this not matter? Does not Java have to decide on a gui? How can you have different apps using a different gui manager? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary. >>> what linux gui should i use? gnome or kde (are there others?) >> >>Again, it does not matter. > > how could this not matter? Does not Java have to decide on a gui? > How can you have different apps using a different gui manager? It is certainly possible to have apps that link against gnome, and those that link against kde running under gnome OR kde OR under no desktop manager (you can even remove the window manager as well if you really want). As Eclipse links against gtk2 (at least if you don't want motif - and who would these days) you will need to install at least that (you will get that for free if you install gnome). SignatureAndy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials" - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_ >>>what linux gui should i use? gnome or kde (are there others?) >> >>Again, it does not matter. > > how could this not matter? Does not Java have to decide on a gui? > How can you have different apps using a different gui manager? What I meant was that, for a person who wants to learn java, itis totally transparent, as to what GUI manager the person uses. It is more important to learn the API than bother about the GUI manager. SignatureKarthik Humans please 'removeme_' for my real email. >What I meant was that, for a person who wants to learn java, itis >totally transparent, as to what GUI manager the person uses. It is more >important to learn the API than bother about the GUI manager. So Linux seem to have several layers of GUI manager out past Swing?? You have the X-Windows, then Gnome/KDE, then something low level they all must agree on that perhaps allocates rectangles of screen real-estate, then finally the device driver. Is this considerable duplication of effort, or are the layers cleanly separated? -- Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary. 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