Java Forum / Tools / October 2004
Which Java IDE is best for beginners?
Marc Chapleau - 11 Oct 2004 22:11 GMT This question might have been asked over and over. Still, i'm new here and i'm just beginning to learn Java.
I did download the SDK 1.4.2.05 and installed it properly.
Should i start with Notepad or with a good IDE?
If IDE should be the best option, which one to chose? i heard about IntelliJ 4.5. But i cant find anything else than a 30 days shareware. i wont install it if i cant use it after a 30 days try out.
thanks for your tips.
IchBin - 11 Oct 2004 23:19 GMT > This question might have been asked over and over. Still, i'm new here and > i'm just beginning to learn Java. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > thanks for your tips. Marc,
For a beginner Netbeans may be a bit over powering. Eclipse maybe better. I use both Netbeans, JDeveloper and Eclipse. You never know where your next job will be. I think Eclipse is more user friendly. Plus it has plug-ins for most anything you heart desires. These may not be beginner IDE's.
Beginner IDE's would be ultraEdit, jEdit, Blujay or JGRASP.. plus more! but these would be my beginner selections. They are FREE.
Blujay is nice but I really think *JGRASP* would be more suitable. Bluejay is more for learning OOP/OOD. I also have and used ultraEdit, jEdit, Bluejay and JGRASP but have tendency to use JGRASP more than the others.
Reason I use it is because it's quick and to the point. I love Eclipse and use this 90% of the time but *JGRASP* can also do the job. I am impressed by what it can do and how simple the ide interface is.
JGRASP just is very powerful but simple. It also does not require your entire machine to run. It still has project management, jar creation, UML diagrams, code profiling.... Well, *you* have to take a peek at it to decide !
You can checkout JGRASP at http://www.jgrasp.org/index.html
It's comes from university so you know cone heads wrote and maintain it... *LOL* which is a good thing!
 Signature Thanks in Advance... IchBin __________________________________________________________________________
'Laughter is inner jogging' - Norman Cousins, editor and author (1915-1990)
Don Conrad - 12 Oct 2004 00:14 GMT >> This question might have been asked over and over. Still, i'm new here >> and i'm just beginning to learn Java. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > It's comes from university so you know cone heads wrote and maintain > it... *LOL* which is a good thing! I would suggest NOT using an IDE as you are learning. You'll spend more time learning the IDE than you will learning Java.
Marc Chapleau - 12 Oct 2004 03:44 GMT > I would suggest NOT using an IDE as you are learning. You'll spend more > time learning the IDE than you will learning Java. I'l do the way you suggest though. ...till the day l'l feel an IDE would ease my work. thanks
JPR105 - 12 Oct 2004 12:44 GMT > >> This question might have been asked over and over. Still, i'm new here > >> and i'm just beginning to learn Java. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > I would suggest NOT using an IDE as you are learning. You'll spend more > time learning the IDE than you will learning Java.
Date : 2004/10/12 - 13h41
Hi Don,
I am a beginner in Java ! I wish to learn by my self Java ! How is it possible to learn Java without an IDE ? By the same time, could you recommend me a few good books or magazines for a beginner ? Thank you ! JPR ( Jean-Pierre )
Don Conrad - 13 Oct 2004 01:22 GMT >>>>This question might have been asked over and over. Still, i'm new here >>>>and i'm just beginning to learn Java. [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Thank you ! > JPR ( Jean-Pierre ) Use gvim (or something like it for an editor).
I like Ivor Horton's Beginning Java 2 book to get started.
Don
Larry Barowski - 13 Oct 2004 10:53 GMT > I would suggest NOT using an IDE as you are learning. You'll spend more > time learning the IDE than you will learning Java. IDEs that can work "projectless" don't require any additional learning. In jGRASP you can just open a new file, edit code, save the file, hit the compile button, and hit the run or debug button. It also displays the full commands used to compile, run, etc.
Having an integrated editor and debugger is much more convenient than using separate tools.
Marc Chapleau - 13 Oct 2004 11:21 GMT > IDEs that can work "projectless" don't require any additional > learning. In jGRASP you can just open a new file, edit code, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Having an integrated editor and debugger is much more > convenient than using separate tools. And JGrasp have an integrated editor and debugger ?
IchBin - 13 Oct 2004 12:00 GMT >>IDEs that can work "projectless" don't require any additional >>learning. In jGRASP you can just open a new file, edit code, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > And JGrasp have an integrated editor and debugger ? Yes.......
just go to the page and take a peek? Not hard to do!
http://www.jgrasp.org/index.html
Even there project management is really simple. It just keeps references to all the programs you want to grouped together. You can then set compiler, UML..etc options for that project. Just as you could do for an individual program. Plus it supports ....... never mind:
*About jGRASP*
jGRASP is a lightweight development environment, created specifically to provide automatic generation of software visualizations for the purpose of improving the comprehensibility of software. jGRASP is implemented in Java, and runs on all platforms with a Java Virtual Machine (Java version 1.3 or higher). jGRASP produces CSD diagrams for Java, C, C++, Objective-C, Ada, and VHDL; CPG diagrams for Java and Ada; UML diagrams for Java; and has an integrated debugger and workbench for Java.
*New Versions*
The jGRASP 1.7.1 release added more support for Java 1.5 features. CSD generation now fully supports Java 1.5 syntax. The UML diagram shows enums and generic signatures for classes, fields, and methods. The Java debugger and workbench show full generic signatures with replacements whenever possible, and allow the user to specify generic type arguments when creating a class instance. Operations such as "invoke method" still consider the declared type of values to be the run-time type even when a replaced type can be resolved - this will be fixed in a future version.
Also in 1.7.1, the Java workbench can now be used without a project, and can be started and used directly from an editing window, without a UML diagram.
jGRASP 1.7.2 fixes a minor problem in 1.7.1. The Java CLASSPATH extensions that jGRASP normally searches for in standard locations were ignored.
 Signature
Thanks in Advance... IchBin __________________________________________________________________________
'Laughter is inner jogging' - Norman Cousins, editor and author (1915-1990)
Hal Rosser - 12 Oct 2004 00:33 GMT > > This question might have been asked over and over. Still, i'm new here and > > i'm just beginning to learn Java. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > It's comes from university so you know cone heads wrote and maintain > it... *LOL* which is a good thing! I agree with using JGrasp - Its simple enough to use like a text editor - but has features to grow into - and most important - a debugger
William Peterson - 14 Oct 2004 20:00 GMT > I agree with using JGrasp - Its simple enough to use like a text editor - > but has features to grow into - and most important - a debugger All this talk about JGrasp and newbies and no one has mentioned Control Structure Diagrams? That's the feature that sets JGrasp apart from all other IDEs. Those new to programming or a particular language should look at a lot of other peoples code, and JGrasp CSDs can make even horrendously ugly code understandable.
I've been using it for reverse engineering since it was just Grasp (for Ada) and while I don't use it anymore as an IDE it's always on my computer in case I need to understand some obtuse code.
I just wish they'd open source it so CSDs could find their way into Eclipse and other products.
J. F. Cornwall - 15 Oct 2004 21:30 GMT >>I agree with using JGrasp - Its simple enough to use like a text editor - >>but has features to grow into - and most important - a debugger [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I just wish they'd open source it so CSDs could find their way into > Eclipse and other products. Speaking as a newbie (to Java, I have been earning a living in Fortran for 20 yrs) with an installed copy of jGRASP for the Java intro class I'm taking, can you elaborate on the benefits of these diagrams? I noticed it in the program last nite after seeing this, but nothing leaped out at me as far as how you'd make use of them. Got any good pointers to info on the subject?
Jim Cornwall
Larry Barowski - 16 Oct 2004 06:16 GMT > Speaking as a newbie (to Java, I have been earning a living in Fortran > for 20 yrs) with an installed copy of jGRASP for the Java intro class > I'm taking, can you elaborate on the benefits of these diagrams? I > noticed it in the program last nite after seeing this, but nothing > leaped out at me as far as how you'd make use of them. Got any good > pointers to info on the subject? Disclaimer: I am the chief programmer for the jGRASP project. I believe everything that follows, but you can take it as "advertising" if you want. I do use jGRASP exclusively to develop jGRASP, and always use the CSD.
In general, I would say try the CSD. Give it a few hours at least and see if you like it.
The CSD has been shown to increase the rate and reliability of code comprehension. This is based on a published in-house study, with "experienced student users" as subjects. We welcome independent verification and related studies.
Another benefit that most would accept without evidence is an increase in search speed - it makes it much easier to find the start and end of each structure.
In my experience a huge benefit is a reduction in fatigue (meaning fatigue due to "reading code") with long hours of programming. This is just my feeling - it would certainly be difficult to study.
It also enables simple and meaningful code folding - in jGRASP you can fold a structure by double clicking on the CSD "stem" for that structure.
Another feature enabled by the CSD is "context hints", which displays the first or last line of a structure (whichever is significant) when that line is off-screen, when the mouse is placed over the CSD stem for that structure. So basically you can slide the mouse across a line and see (using Java as an example) what class that line is in, what method, and down through all the structures that are not currently visible.
The CSD does show complete control flow for the "structured" parts of the code (not raw gotos, etc.) when you know how to read it. I don't think this is a big benefit, but in some situations it can be. One example is in showing the path to one or more "finally"s from a "return", "break", etc. If the "finally"s are off-screen (or even if they are visible), you are likely to ignore them when reading the code. Also it will make it obvious when a switch case is missing a "break", when there is an accidental semicolon at the end of a structure (if, for, etc.) header, and some other common structural mistakes and unexpected structures.
The CSD also has the benefits of any other code- formatter (at least for indentation). It reduces the time you would spend "indenting", and standardizes the indentation format to some extent. If you don't like the indentation scheme it uses (which is more-or-less mandated by the diagram), you may not consider that a benefit.
In jGRASP the CSD is editable, so during development you would typically regenerate at least as often as you would compile. Generating it is fast (40,000 Kloc / s or so on a 2GHz Pentium - effectively "instant").
The CSD fits into the space normally taken by indentation, so it really doesn't interfere with the normal presentation of source code, it just adds to it. I suppose there are people who find the CSD distracting and can not "adjust" to it, but I would expect that is quite rare.
J. F. Cornwall - 16 Oct 2004 18:02 GMT >>Speaking as a newbie (to Java, I have been earning a living in Fortran >>for 20 yrs) with an installed copy of jGRASP for the Java intro class [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > In general, I would say try the CSD. Give it a few hours > at least and see if you like it. (snip)
Thanks for the info, Larry. I will definitely be checking into the subject in your tutorial that William pointed me to. :-)
Jim
William Peterson - 16 Oct 2004 07:58 GMT > Speaking as a newbie (to Java, I have been earning a living in Fortran > for 20 yrs) with an installed copy of jGRASP for the Java intro class [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Jim Cornwall The developers of JGrasp do a pretty good job of selling the concept on the web site. http://www.jgrasp.org/tutorials17/08_CSD.pdf is probably more eloquent than I can be. The primary value of CSDs to me has been looking at other peoples code. Nested ifs and loops can be hard to follow, particularly if you don't notice a bracket or brace buried in the middle.
If you're just starting, the course materiel you've been given is probably well structured, well commented, well indented and relatively simple. CSDs might not add too much value there. But with more complicated code I've found them very helpful.
You can use the various CSDs as templates and paste them in your code, thus assuring that you'll have the proper syntax and formatting. I've not really used that feature.
J. F. Cornwall - 16 Oct 2004 17:59 GMT >>Speaking as a newbie (to Java, I have been earning a living in Fortran >>for 20 yrs) with an installed copy of jGRASP for the Java intro class [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > thus assuring that you'll have the proper syntax and formatting. I've > not really used that feature. Thanks, I will definitely check into this. Sounds very useful...
Jim
Juha Laiho - 14 Oct 2004 18:20 GMT "Marc Chapleau" <leraelien@hotmail.com> said:
>This question might have been asked over and over. Still, i'm new here and >i'm just beginning to learn Java. There's Google Groups archive that enables you to search past articles and discussions.
>I did download the SDK 1.4.2.05 and installed it properly. > >Should i start with Notepad or with a good IDE? I'd recommend the notepad way (or perhaps an editor with a bit more features, such as syntax highlight, automatic indentation -- if you like these, but in no cases compile automation or other hiding of what goes on in the background). It seems to me that people who have grown into Java just the IDE way lack some fundamental knowledge, ad are further very afraid to even try out things outside their IDE (and at times IDEs may have limitations or outright bugs prohibiting things that are completely ok - and people too accustomed to the IDEs blame the language when they should blame their IDE instead).
See the Java Tutorial from Sun ( http://java.sun.com/tutorial ); it gives the handholding needed to start development without an IDE.
>If IDE should be the best option, which one to chose? i heard about IntelliJ >4.5. But i cant find anything else than a 30 days shareware. i wont install >it if i cant use it after a 30 days try out. I wonder from where did you download your JDK so that you did not see the JDK+NetBeans -cobundle download (so, Sun provides JDK+NetBeans as a single download, and NetBeans is a free IDE).
 Signature Wolf a.k.a. Juha Laiho Espoo, Finland (GC 3.0) GIT d- s+: a C++ ULSH++++$ P++@ L+++ E- W+$@ N++ !K w !O !M V PS(+) PE Y+ PGP(+) t- 5 !X R !tv b+ !DI D G e+ h---- r+++ y++++ "...cancel my subscription to the resurrection!" (Jim Morrison)
Bill Tschumy - 17 Oct 2004 03:47 GMT > This question might have been asked over and over. Still, i'm new here and > i'm just beginning to learn Java. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > thanks for your tips. You might also look at Jurtle, my tool for teaching programming in Java. It combines a very easy to use IDE with a set of lessons that introduces you to programming using Turtle Graphics (a concept popularized by Logo).
The downside is that my tool is not free. It is $23, but hey, I have to make a living too <g>.
You can find Jurtle at <http://www.otherwise.com/Jutle.html>
 Signature Bill Tschumy Otherwise -- Austin, TX http://www.otherwise.com
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