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Java Forum / First Aid / February 2005

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Java Object-Oriented Prgramming- Basics for High School Course ???

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James - 26 Feb 2005 21:07 GMT
I hope this is the right group within which to post this message.  If I am
off base, please tell me and I will try a more appropriate group.   But, I
do need help for my son, and this was the only place that I know where to
turn for help.

My  son is in high school, and is taking a basic Java course.      The text
book is  called      "Java Methods", An Introduction to Object-Oriented
Programming.  The authors are  Maria and Gary Litvin.

It appears that his teacher is very well skilled in Java programming, but
she doesn't have super teaching skills.   My son works hard and is smart,
but cannot for the life of him figure out how to actually write a simple
program.  He doesn't have a clue where to start, and cannot do most of the
book assignments as he hasn't learned the very, very basic elements of
writing a Java program.    At the same time, he is very smart, works hard,
and I know for a fact that he can and will learn  Java if exposed to the
right source.

Some of the book assignments simply say,   "Write a program that will do the
following..... etc,  etc "

Here are my questions:

1.  Is there a more appropriate user group to post this question ?

2. Is there a good website that might help him as a TOTAL NEWCOMER  to the
Java language?

3. Does anyone know of an outstanding book ,  that effectively teaches  Java
Object Oriented Programming, in a manner that a teenager could pick it up
(without teacher assistance)  if he were willing to work hard at it ??

4.  Is there a Java  software product that can be used as a teaching source
for learning      BASIC   Java Object-Oriented Programming ?

------------------------------------------

In making responses, please keep in mind that my son is very much a
beginner, and any source of materials would have to assume that the student
was on his or her first day in a Java class, and needed to be able to write
a simple program with a week or ten days.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated  !!

--James--
Wiseguy - 26 Feb 2005 21:34 GMT
"James" <jnipperxxx@nospamfdn.com> scribbled on the stall wall:

> It appears that his teacher is very well skilled in Java programming, but
> she doesn't have super teaching skills.   My son works hard and is smart,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> and I know for a fact that he can and will learn  Java if exposed to the
> right source.

Being his parent, you're in no way biased, right?

> 1.  Is there a more appropriate user group to post this question ?

I don't see why it wouldn't be an adequate forum to ask.


> 2. Is there a good website that might help him as a TOTAL NEWCOMER  to the
> Java language?

Yes, but not for the average highschool kid.


> 3. Does anyone know of an outstanding book ,  that effectively teaches  Java
> Object Oriented Programming, in a manner that a teenager could pick it up
> (without teacher assistance)  if he were willing to work hard at it ??

I suppose I'll take all kinds of flaming for this since many of us are/were
self-taught in the golden age of computers (1970s-1980s) but I really don't
think (effective) java programming can or should be taught to teenagers in
highschool.

It goes back to a fundamental concept I've believed for over 20 years and
I'm not about to change my mind.  People really need to conceptually
understand computer science principles as part of learning to program in ANY
object oriented language.  Teaching programming separate from theory has
led to a slew of underqualified incapable programmers out there who produce
substandard code but are attractive to industry because they work cheap.

I'll step off of my soap-box now...Asbestos coveralls are on, so flame at will.

> 4.  Is there a Java  software product that can be used as a teaching source
> for learning      BASIC   Java Object-Oriented Programming ?

I don't really think object oriented programming is BASIC...

There once was a language called BASIC and highschool kids should start by
learning that since it is a useful tool for teaching algorithms and ways of
thinking about problems without getting bogged down in higher level concepts.

> In making responses, please keep in mind that my son is very much a
> beginner, and any source of materials would have to assume that the student
> was on his or her first day in a Java class, and needed to be able to write
> a simple program with a week or ten days.

Even with my unwavering feelings about whether it is appropriate to teach
java to a highschool kid, I have a hard time immagining a class where the
first week of lectures does NOT include a blackboard example such that
simply copying it would produce a working java program.  Are you sure
Jr. is REALLY taking notes and paying attention?  OTOH, those who cannot
DO, TEACH INSTEAD...so it is possible that his instructor is innept.
James - 26 Feb 2005 21:44 GMT
Well, we can all fully understand why your chosen Newsgroup name is
Wiseguy.

I didn't have to know anything about software to figure that one out.

Good Luck !!

--James--

--------------------------------

"James" <jnipperxxx@nospamfdn.com> scribbled on the stall wall:

> It appears that his teacher is very well skilled in Java programming, but
> she doesn't have super teaching skills.   My son works hard and is smart,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> and I know for a fact that he can and will learn  Java if exposed to the
> right source.

Being his parent, you're in no way biased, right?

> 1.  Is there a more appropriate user group to post this question ?

I don't see why it wouldn't be an adequate forum to ask.

> 2. Is there a good website that might help him as a TOTAL NEWCOMER  to the
> Java language?

Yes, but not for the average highschool kid.

> 3. Does anyone know of an outstanding book ,  that effectively teaches  Java
> Object Oriented Programming, in a manner that a teenager could pick it up
> (without teacher assistance)  if he were willing to work hard at it ??

I suppose I'll take all kinds of flaming for this since many of us are/were
self-taught in the golden age of computers (1970s-1980s) but I really don't
think (effective) java programming can or should be taught to teenagers in
highschool.

It goes back to a fundamental concept I've believed for over 20 years and
I'm not about to change my mind.  People really need to conceptually
understand computer science principles as part of learning to program in ANY
object oriented language.  Teaching programming separate from theory has
led to a slew of underqualified incapable programmers out there who produce
substandard code but are attractive to industry because they work cheap.

I'll step off of my soap-box now...Asbestos coveralls are on, so flame at
will.

> 4.  Is there a Java  software product that can be used as a teaching source
> for learning      BASIC   Java Object-Oriented Programming ?

I don't really think object oriented programming is BASIC...

There once was a language called BASIC and highschool kids should start by
learning that since it is a useful tool for teaching algorithms and ways of
thinking about problems without getting bogged down in higher level
concepts.

> In making responses, please keep in mind that my son is very much a
> beginner, and any source of materials would have to assume that the student
> was on his or her first day in a Java class, and needed to be able to write
> a simple program with a week or ten days.

Even with my unwavering feelings about whether it is appropriate to teach
java to a highschool kid, I have a hard time immagining a class where the
first week of lectures does NOT include a blackboard example such that
simply copying it would produce a working java program.  Are you sure
Jr. is REALLY taking notes and paying attention?  OTOH, those who cannot
DO, TEACH INSTEAD...so it is possible that his instructor is innept.
emma wykes - 26 Feb 2005 21:50 GMT
Hi There,

Wiseguy has some valid points !

I am speaking as a post grad student who learned Java without the first idea
of computer science or programming I was an electrician !
Most people can learn OOP with a lot of application.

He could  try Blue J book and IDE  http://www.bluej.org/

David J. Barnes & Michael K?lling
Objects First with Java
A Practical Introduction using BlueJ, 2nd ed

Prentice Hall / Pearson Education, 2004
ISBN 0-13-124933-9

I think this is as good a manual as any .

regards

Jim Ascroft

> "James" <jnipperxxx@nospamfdn.com> scribbled on the stall wall:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
TechBookReport - 28 Feb 2005 10:39 GMT
> Hi There,
>
[quoted text clipped - 140 lines]
>
> =----

A second vote for BlueJ. The book is reviewed here:
http://www.techbookreport.com/tbr0096.html

Also the Sun tutorial is worth looking at.

pan
============================================================
TechBookReport Java http://www.techbookreport.com/JavaIndex.html
Fuddzy - 26 Feb 2005 21:48 GMT
> 3. Does anyone know of an outstanding book ,  that effectively teaches  Java
> Object Oriented Programming, in a manner that a teenager could pick it up
> (without teacher assistance)  if he were willing to work hard at it ??

James:

I am a hobbyist Java programmer and as I was learning (it never ends)
Java I stumbled across the following book in my local library

"Java Demystified" by Jim Keogh from McGraw-Hill-Osborne .

In Canada the book costs $28.95 and is worth every penny

Hope this helps your son

Fuddzie
Paul Chapman - 26 Feb 2005 22:04 GMT
James,

I would echo some of what Wiseguy wrote, but not all.

I certainly agree that Java is inappropriate for a FIRST language.  It
worries me that your son's school does not appear to share this view.  BASIC
was and still is a far better idea.  LOGO would be my choice today, even
though its heyday is past, because the teaching materials were designed by
teachers (very good teachers) and not programmers.

Beyond that, programming is not for everybody.

It's not like art, where anyone can follow the instruction "draw a horse".
Ask me to draw a horse, and I will produce something the average
eight-year-old could beat.  It will be recognizable as a horse, but wouldn't
be suitable for illustrating a book about horses.  I cannot make money from
drawing.

But ask someone to write a program to load a picture of a horse and render
it on the screen upside down, and there will simply be people who can't do
it.  Programming is a discipline that at the first requires ABSOLUTE
pedantry, and some people can't (and don't want to) function that way.

Beyond that, programming gets very hard very quickly.  Being able to create
a program to solve a problem from scratch again requires a very particular
way of thinking.  Being "bright" or "good at maths" or "well-trained" is
sometimes simply not enough.

...

Constructive advice: not much to give.  First off, get your son a BASIC or
LOGO system with some introductory materials and start him off on that.  If
the school complains, tell 'em to go to hell.  Do you want your son to be
able to program, or to please the teachers?

Then find a parent who programs and who understands why Java is such a bad
first language, and go see the principal together and ask him/her what the
hell they think they're doing.  Well, maybe be a bit more diplomatic. :)
Say you'll offer to help them set up a world-beating
introduction-to-programming course.

Cheers, Paul
Chris Smith - 26 Feb 2005 22:17 GMT
> Constructive advice: not much to give.  First off, get your son a BASIC or
> LOGO system with some introductory materials and start him off on that.  If
> the school complains, tell 'em to go to hell.  Do you want your son to be
> able to program, or to please the teachers?

That seems to me like an incredibly poor approach.  Like it or not, this
is about accomplishing the goal of learning Java.  Java may not be the
best language to learn it (although it's far better than some), but it's
not a good choice to attempt to learn Java by first learning something
else, and then learning Java.  I might as well advise you that because
French is a hard language to learn, you should learn Latin first and
then move on to French.

So definitely check out BlueJ, and/or also look up the "Java Tutorial",
which has an excellent step-by-step section on getting started with your
first program.  Then take Patricia's advice, and just have him start
working a lot of simple example problems.

Signature

www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

Paul Chapman - 26 Feb 2005 23:32 GMT
> > Constructive advice: not much to give.  First off, get your son a BASIC or
> > LOGO system with some introductory materials and start him off on that.  If
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> is about accomplishing the goal of learning Java.  Java may not be the
> best language to learn it (although it's far better than some), ...

I would say that it's not much better than very few, but anyway...

> ... but it's
> not a good choice to attempt to learn Java by first learning something
> else, and then learning Java.  I might as well advise you that because
> French is a hard language to learn, you should learn Latin first and
> then move on to French.

Well, this has become a political debate, and people's politics vary
radically. :)

I strongly believe that in any subject, that *if* one has ambitions beyond a
superficial, lay understanding, *then* one should learn the fundamentals
first.

Your Latin/French example is a good one.  If you want to be able to order a
beer on a two-week vacation in Britanny, then forget the Latin.  If you want
to be able to read and understand French philosophy, you need the Latin.  I
did two years of Latin, and it helped me not one jot in my French and German
exams.  But now I'm older, even my foggy recollections of those two years
inform my understanding of two thousand years of European history, right up
to political and social differences today, not to mention the history of
British mathematics and science, and my lay interest in linguistics.  I only
wish I had some Ancient Greek as well!

(And in the absence of any formal education in English grammar -- my schools
were both a little too progressive in that area -- I thank the stars that I
was made aware of parts of speech in my Latin studies.  Many PROFESSIONAL
writers of English today obviously do not have a grasp of simple grammar --
few can identify a gerund, for example, and as a consequence pretty much
every single news or feature article committed to the page uses an object
pronoun somewhere where a possessive pronoun belongs.  Latin is not the only
route to such understanding, but it does a grand job in the absence of
formal training in English.)

There are fundamentals in programming.  OO is not one of them (and the world
of computer programming did fine without it for 25 years).  GUI is not one
of them.  Where to put and where not to put braces and semicolons is not one
of them, nor are two-dimensional arrays which are actually vectors of
vectors.

Compare:

   class MyClass {
       public static void main(String[] args) {
           System.out.println("Hello World"); } }

with:

   10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD"
   20 END

and tell me which you think helps start someone off with the fundamentals of
programming!

Cheers, Paul
Chris Smith - 27 Feb 2005 00:15 GMT
> Well, this has become a political debate, and people's politics vary
> radically. :)

I don't know about that.  I agree with pretty much everything you said.  
However, the fact remains that this kid is apparently in a semester
class in programming that uses Java, and going off to learn Logo and
BASIC is not going to help much with that class in a one-semester time
frame, especially if it he's still sitting in class hearing about Java
on a regular basis anyway, and BASIC takes away from the time he is
spending learning Java.

It *is* possible to learn the basics of programming in Java, and it
looks like that is what's called for here.

Signature

www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

iSyncLtd@hotmail.com - 27 Feb 2005 02:34 GMT
i learned LTP BASIC and then java.

basic is helpful to learn the logic part of programing but i would just
recommend "java 2 for dummies" :) that's how i learned it and it has
less techno stuff others wouldn't know
Patricia Shanahan - 26 Feb 2005 22:06 GMT
> I hope this is the right group within which to post this message.  If I am
> off base, please tell me and I will try a more appropriate group.   But, I
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Some of the book assignments simply say,   "Write a program that will do the
> following..... etc,  etc "

You may need to look for another book that he prefers. While
I'm not familiar with the course book, the amazon.com
reviews are mixed. At least some students find it confusing.

Also, with two books he would have a better chance of
finding an explanation he can understand for any difficult
point.

Pick one where the first few pages make sense to him. The
first exercises should be given in detail, and relate to
worked examples. By the time he reaches "Write a program
that will do...." he should have already written several
programs and made them run.

Encourage him to attempt examples in order. Programming is a
skill that needs to be developed through practice, not
something most people can learn by just reading. He
shouldn't be worrying at all about "most of the book
examples", only the very earliest and easiest ones he has
not already done. Later examples will require skills he
will not have until he has done the earlier ones.

Patricia
James - 26 Feb 2005 22:17 GMT
Thank you all  for these nice responses.

--James--
Brian Hetrick - 27 Feb 2005 00:04 GMT
> 3. Does anyone know of an outstanding book, that effectively teaches
> Java Object Oriented Programming, in a manner that a teenager could
> pick it up (without teacher assistance) if he were willing to work
> hard at it ??

Firstly, I have to agree with several others here that Java is a poor
choice for a first language.  It has too many special cases in the
syntax and semantics; and while someone with a good understanding of
computer science can understand why the special cases are a 90%
solution and extending the language to provide a 100% solution would
turn it into C++, someone just starting out cannot.  Pascal would be a
much better first language: it was /designed/ to be a first language
by someone who was both an expert educator and a world-class computer
scientist, and succeeds admirably.

As we're already a month into the semester, "write a program to do
<foo>," where "<foo>" is something fairly simple, is entirely
reasonable.  On the other hand, if the instructor did not spend the
first month pounding the concepts and methods of procedural thinking
into the students' heads, "write a program" at all is not reasonable.

A good book for the motivated novice is Bruce Eckel's /Thinking in
Java/.  This is freely downloadable in electron form, although you may
prefer dead tree form.  For electron form, see
http://www.mindview.net/Books/TIJ/.
IchBin - 27 Feb 2005 05:09 GMT
> I hope this is the right group within which to post this message.  If I am
> off base, please tell me and I will try a more appropriate group.   But, I
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> --James--

Try this reference...

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/reallybigindex.html

Signature

Thanks in Advance...
IchBin
__________________________________________________________________________

'The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical
substances:
 if there is any reaction, both are transformed.'
-  Carl Gustav Jung,  (1875-1961),  psychiatrist and psychologist

Steve Horsley - 27 Feb 2005 09:42 GMT
<snip>>
> Here are my questions:
>
> 1.  Is there a more appropriate user group to post this question ?

I think this is the right group

> 2. Is there a good website that might help him as a TOTAL NEWCOMER  to the
> Java language?

Difficult. Suns web site java.sun.com has a java tutorial that tries to cover
from the basics upwards. I's big but downloadable.

> 3. Does anyone know of an outstanding book ,  that effectively teaches  Java
> Object Oriented Programming, in a manner that a teenager could pick it up
> (without teacher assistance)  if he were willing to work hard at it ??

For Q 3 and 4, as others have said, try bluej (www.bluej.org). This is a small
IDE designed for teaching. It will definitely help with object oriented
thinking. It's a free download. It lets you get straight into writing code
without all the polava of saving files and figuring out the compiler first.
It also has an accompanying book (see the web site) that is written specially
for teaching java using bluej.

HTH
Steve

> 4.  Is there a Java  software product that can be used as a teaching source
> for learning      BASIC   Java Object-Oriented Programming ?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> --James--
Joerg Simon - 27 Feb 2005 11:44 GMT
[snip]
> 3. Does anyone know of an outstanding book ,  that effectively teaches  Java
> Object Oriented Programming, in a manner that a teenager could pick it up
> (without teacher assistance)  if he were willing to work hard at it ??
[snip]

Hm, this may not be much helpful right noe, but after your son got the
basics of programming, I would recomment "Head First Java" as a very
good book. I think so because it makes learning the language a fun, the
things you learn just stick better, and it keeps you motivated trying
the complete crazy examples.

However, this book is for somewon who still knows the basics.

I pearsonally started learing Programming with one year BASIC at school
and JavaScript ;), and moved to Java after 1 1/2 jears of beeing
confronted with that stuff with O'Raillys book Learning Java.

Since Learning Java is a very good book, it is very technically written,
but it may be of help.

However, my aim was to tell that your son may have fun with Head First
Java, which too helped me a lot to "master" the language....

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