hi all
after many years of working as mostly an asp developer, i finally decided it
was time to try to pick up java. i've gotten about 1/4 into my 'intro to
...' book, figuring out the basics of things like applet. as an asp
developer, i kept looking for the 'magical abilities' that java would have
over asp. i didn't really find any. i realize i have a ton of reading left
to do before i have a sense of what java can really do, but from a web
developer's perspective, would there be any advantage to use java over asp
for common developer chores (read form fields, add/update/delete records, do
page security)? java obviously has graphics, oop, 'write once, run
anywhere' features to it, but how do these really benefit the basic asp
developer writing scripts designed to perform fairly routine chores?
tks
Ryan Stewart - 13 May 2004 03:22 GMT
> hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> developer, i kept looking for the 'magical abilities' that java would have
> over asp.
Keep looking. They're there.
> i didn't really find any. i realize i have a ton of reading left
> to do before i have a sense of what java can really do, but from a web
> developer's perspective, would there be any advantage to use java over asp
> for common developer chores (read form fields, add/update/delete records, do
> page security)?
Immense advantages in my experience, but then I've not used ASP.NET. I hear
it's somewhat better than standard ASP (which I consider evil).
> java obviously has graphics, oop, 'write once, run
> anywhere' features to it, but how do these really benefit the basic asp
> developer writing scripts designed to perform fairly routine chores?
The graphics side of Java won't help you in server-side development
obviously, but Java is widely used and highly standards-oriented, both for
standalone and web applications. Assuming you're looking into Java strictly
for web development, I'd advise you to learn the basics of the Java
language, such as primitive types, exception handling, operators, and
syntax. Then spend some time getting a feel for object oriented programming
(any good Java primer will have a good bit on that). Then finally look into
J2EE. That's Java 2 Enterprise Edition. It's all about web development. Look
into servlets first, then JSPs. Again, a basic Java book should at least
touch on these subjects. Eventually look at an application framework like
Struts. You can ignore AWT and Swing, which should cut several chapters out
of your reading. On a side note, one of the great things about developing in
Java is that it's totally free. You can download the Java SDK, an IDE
(NetBeans, Eclipse, JDeveloper), and a servlet container like Tomcat, and
run them all for free at work, at home, or anywhere in between.
chris - 13 May 2004 13:05 GMT
thanks for the response, ryan. i'll look into this j2ee stuff. recommend any
good books on oop?
also, i know what you mean about asp being evil, especially when you can
look at the syntax and see pretty quickly where it comes from (php)
> > hi all
> >
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> (NetBeans, Eclipse, JDeveloper), and a servlet container like Tomcat, and
> run them all for free at work, at home, or anywhere in between.
Roedy Green - 13 May 2004 06:45 GMT
>after many years of working as mostly an asp developer, i finally decided it
>was time to try to pick up java. i've gotten about 1/4 into my 'intro to
>...' book, figuring out the basics of things like applet. as an asp
>developer, i kept looking for the 'magical abilities' that java would have
>over asp. i didn't really find any
language comparison cheerleading belongs in comp.lang.java.advocacy.

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Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
chris - 13 May 2004 13:05 GMT
noted.
> >after many years of working as mostly an asp developer, i finally decided it
> >was time to try to pick up java. i've gotten about 1/4 into my 'intro to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> language comparison cheerleading belongs in comp.lang.java.advocacy.
Bryce - 13 May 2004 15:52 GMT
>hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>anywhere' features to it, but how do these really benefit the basic asp
>developer writing scripts designed to perform fairly routine chores?
First off, you can't compare Java over ASP. ASP is a web technology,
built using tags in an ASP page that is compiled by the server. Java
encompases much more.
I think you wish to compare JSP vs ASP. JSP is Java's answer to ASP.
--
now with more cowbell
Chris Smith - 13 May 2004 18:20 GMT
> after many years of working as mostly an asp developer, i finally decided it
> was time to try to pick up java. i've gotten about 1/4 into my 'intro to
> ...' book, figuring out the basics of things like applet. as an asp
> developer, i kept looking for the 'magical abilities' that java would have
> over asp. i didn't really find any.
Bryce is right that Java is more than a web application technology.
You're finding that out if you're reading about applets. You won't use
applets in your particular development area, and keep in mind that books
that start with applets tend to be poor ones from a language standpoint
(which is what you *will* need to know).
The biggest advantage you ought to find in using Java over ASP for web
development is exactly that Java is a bigger language and used for a lot
of different things, and that this is reflected in the way you approach
web development with JSPs. While it's possible to write a bunch of Java
code in JSP pages, this is about the worst way to proceed. If you do
your job right, 90% of the code you write for a web application will be
in Java classes that are used by your JSPs. That's getting even more
true with time.
I can't explain Java web application development in a newsgroup post,
but if you want to jump ahead and get an idea of where you're heading,
browse through some books on:
1. Servlets and JSPs
2. JSTL and JSP 2.0 (including EL)
3. Tag libraries
4. Struts or JSF
Particularly the last (Struts or JSF) should help a lot, because these
kinds of books will focus on how you would organize the pieces of a web
application in Java. For the more challenging tasks that involve more
than the presentation layer, you're dealing with core Java programming
outside of a web context, and there are a lot of libraries for solving a
variety of difficult problems in Java. Which you choose will depend
heavily on what problem you're actually solving (and not at all on
whether your solution will be presented via a web page).

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chris - 13 May 2004 22:39 GMT
hey chris
i think i get the gist of what you're saying here. i did a quick lookup on
jsf - this does sound pretty cool and powerful, something well beyond what
traditional asp can do. can you give me a practical example of a problem i
could solve using java?
also, i had a look through your design a course site - very impressive. my
company is in the process of building a similar site. main difference is
that our system will ask the client to upload their own training media
(video, powerpoint, word doc, etc). the grading would all take place after
the training media has run via simple quiz forms which the teacher would set
up after uploading the media. your system has obvious advantages, however.
mind if i ask if you built your publishing tool from scratch or did it come
from an open sources wysiwyg editor you customized?
tks
> > after many years of working as mostly an asp developer, i finally decided it
> > was time to try to pick up java. i've gotten about 1/4 into my 'intro to
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> heavily on what problem you're actually solving (and not at all on
> whether your solution will be presented via a web page).
Bryce - 14 May 2004 20:24 GMT
>i think i get the gist of what you're saying here. i did a quick lookup on
>jsf - this does sound pretty cool and powerful, something well beyond what
>traditional asp can do. can you give me a practical example of a problem i
>could solve using java?
Strange question.. Like asking:
Can you give me a specific location I can drive my car to?
--
now with more cowbell
Roedy Green - 15 May 2004 01:51 GMT
> can you give me a practical example of a problem i
>could solve using java?
see http://mindprod.com/projects.html

Signature
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
perry - 17 May 2004 14:21 GMT
keep reading....
- perry
> hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> tks