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Java Forum / General / December 2007Recommend a good free text editor?
Hi all, Following up from a previous post, I just started using Sams Teach Yourself Java 6 in 21 days. So far it seems very nice, very similar to my old VB book of the same series. However, the text editor it comes with is buggy (for example, doesn't colorize syntax until file is saved) and doesn't really do what I need, and I'm wondering if anyone knows of any java-aware freeware editors that do what i need: For example, I had compile errors a few times because I failed to capitalize the word "String" and simliarly I named a method "showAttributes" but when I called it in an application I accidentally capitalized ShowAttributes and it did not recognize any time I used it like that, until I changed them to lowercase the way it is written in the method declaration. Having been using VB for so long, I'm spoiled in that, let's say I name a variable strMyStringVariableWithAWeirdName I could type ANYWHERE in my project strmystringvariablewithaweirdname and it would automatically recognize it as having been declared as a variable, and it applied the appropriate capitalizations. This "awareness" as it is referred to is extraordiarily useful for me, and especially since I'm only just learning... I understand that in the scope of a whole IDE it can have the power to recognize everything built therein, but even just having not capitalized "String" in my main, for example, caused me a problem: I wrote public static void main(string[] arguments) { and it left the word string un-capitalized. Given that's a variable type that's part of the java language, I would think at least I could get an editor that would correct that. It wouldn't compile until I found that error. Yes, yes, I know I've been spoiled, but I often, in my freeware hunts, see a gazillion "editors" on the internet that feature all kinds of these abilities for various languages. I need the easiest and most reliable one in terms of taking care of holding my hand like this. I want something free. I've been browsing sourceforge but nothing catches my eye yet, so I figured... here's a good place to get recommendation. Any recommendation is appreciated, thanks. > ... but even just having not capitalized "String" in my > main, for example, caused me a problem: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > get an editor that would correct that. It wouldn't compile until I > found that error. Well, that editor trusted you. It is conceivable, and legal, if ill advised, to name a variable or a type "string", therefore it would be presumptuous of an editor to re-cast the spelling. As an example, it is quite common for people to use a construct like List list = ... ; The editor cannot "correct" something that might not be wrong.  SignatureLew Symbol names in Java are case-sensitive. VB/VB.NET they are not and the IDE is designed to correct a name to the way it was originally spelled when declared. That is why String string = new String(); is valid. Also: int a1; int A1; creates two DIFFERENT variables. The IDE won't want to presume which one you mean, because it might get it wrong. >> ... but even just having not capitalized "String" in my >> main, for example, caused me a problem: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >The editor cannot "correct" something that might not be wrong. Ah, see for example, in VB you cannot name a variable string. There are lots of words you cannot use since they are reserved. I supposed down in the core of the language BASIC, maybe you could, but the IDE prevents you from using reserved words where inappropriate. Perhaps it is in fact an IDE I am in need of. Lew wrote: >> As an example, it is quite common for people to use a construct like >> >> List list = ... ; >> >> The editor cannot "correct" something that might not be wrong. > Ah, see for example, in VB you cannot name a variable string. There > are lots of words you cannot use since they are reserved. I supposed > down in the core of the language BASIC, maybe you could, but the IDE > prevents you from using reserved words where inappropriate. > > Perhaps it is in fact an IDE I am in need of. "list" and "string" are not reserved words in Java. SignatureLew > I need the easiest and most reliable one in terms of taking care of > holding my hand like this. I want something free. I've been browsing > sourceforge but nothing catches my eye yet, so I figured... here's a > good place to get recommendation. > > Any recommendation is appreciated, thanks. There are several good IDE's that give you that; both Eclipse <http:// www.eclipse.org/> and NetBeans <http://www.netbeans.org/> are free and support auto-completion, and more (refactoring support comes to mind). I would recommend getting both and see which one suits you best. Henk > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > like that, until I changed them to lowercase the way it is written in > the method declaration. ... This is not an editor issue, but a programming language design issue. One of the key decisions in designing a programming language is whether to treat capitalization as significant. Is "string" the same as "String" or different? An editor for a language in which identifier case is not significant can treat these as equivalent, and normalize to one capitalization for display. In Java, "showAttributes" and "ShowAttributes" are distinct identifiers. An editor that automatically "corrected" one to get the other would be badly broken. At the most, it should offer "showAttributes" as a possible correction when it finds "ShowAttributes" is undefined. If you are used to a language in which identifier capitalization is not significant you may benefit from an IDE that will mark undefined identifiers and offer corrections. I suggest Eclipse. Patricia > If you are used to a language in which identifier capitalization is not > significant you may benefit from an IDE that will mark undefined > identifiers and offer corrections. I suggest Eclipse. NetBeans is a suitable alternative. SignatureLew >> If you are used to a language in which identifier capitalization is not >> significant you may benefit from an IDE that will mark undefined >> identifiers and offer corrections. I suggest Eclipse. > >NetBeans is a suitable alternative. Yea the book came with Netbeans and I already installed Eclipse so I'll play with both. Do these do what I'm referring to? Despite what many have suggested, that myFunction and MyFuntioN are two distinct things, I cannot imagine anyone wanting to use them differently within any project... it makes for some serious confusion not to mention not very good in terms of re-usability and clarity to other developers looking at the code. I would think that even though some conventions may be legitimate, any responsible developer would avoid such things... I am only an amateur but one of the most fundamental tenets I stick to is the code should be as consistent and distinct and readable as possible. I realize what is being pointed out is that the editor should not presume anything, but an IDE I hope would recognize once a variable or a function has been declared and then henceforth correct spelling to match it. Even, perhaps, as a user-defined preference that it should do this. Thanks for the advice all - I had a sneaking suspicion that what I really needed was a full IDE not just an editor. I had been advised to keep it very very simple at first and start just with text editors, but I'm so used to being spoiled by an IDE that I guess maybe I should dive right in and just ignore anything I don't need to know yet. All your replies are much appreciated. -Dan >>> If you are used to a language in which identifier capitalization is not >>> significant you may benefit from an IDE that will mark undefined [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yea the book came with Netbeans and I already installed Eclipse so > I'll play with both. Do these do what I'm referring to? I'm not sure. What exactly are you referring to? Neither IDE can mark as an error something that is not an error. > Despite what many have suggested, that myFunction and MyFuntioN are > two distinct things, I cannot imagine anyone wanting to use them > differently within any project... it makes for some serious confusion Not the compiler's problem. > not to mention not very good in terms of re-usability and clarity to > other developers looking at the code. I would think that even though [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > then henceforth correct spelling to match it. Even, perhaps, as a > user-defined preference that it should do this. Also not the IDE's job. Its job is to enforce correctness, not style, for the most part. > Thanks for the advice all - I had a sneaking suspicion that what I > really needed was a full IDE not just an editor. I had been advised to > keep it very very simple at first and start just with text editors, > but I'm so used to being spoiled by an IDE that I guess maybe I should > dive right in and just ignore anything I don't need to know yet. IDEs aren't going to flag as wrong what is not wrong. SignatureLew >IDEs aren't going to flag as wrong what is not wrong. I'll give you an example, and I know that to compare VB to Java is likely to make some if not most readers of this post want to reach for the Maalox, just hear me out. What I'm looking for, it is possible that it doesn't exist, and this could be because the java community does not want to baby down anything but quite frankly, anything that makes my life easier is good. Let me give you an example of the way VB's "IntelliSense" works and this is why I don't think it's such a horrific thing: First of all, suggestions popup which is very useful since you can use them or just ignore them: Let's say I start typing dim strMyString as st Once I start the word that follows "as" the IDE knows I'm declaring a variable and it starts auto-suggesting things as I type. This may not seem too amazingly useful to very seasoned developers, but let's say I have defined a Type called "CustomizedRoundButton" Let's say I want to declare a new one. It is a pain to type it all out every time I'd want to do that, and once that Type has been defined anywhere within the project, VB will use the intellisense as such: I type "Dim myButton as cus at this point, the intellisense is already suggesting filtered possibilities, and my Type will be one of the few or even only one available. I can then just hit enter or tab, and it fills in for me. Now, the aforementioned is more of a luxury than a correction feature. But in the example that I gave where my statement in java was: String strStatus; Let's say I had not capitalized "string" string strStatus; Would it not be sensible for the IDE to not only realize that there's a syntax error here (which it does! it flags it in the gutter and also redline's the word), but also popup with suggestions, probably the foremost being "String" It's possible what I'm really getting at here is more of a "I'd like to see this feature" rather than a "why doesn't this happen?" Just my thoughts on the matter, and I welcome comments/corrections etc. Dan PS - Eclipse does something similar but it takes like 5 keystrokes/mouse-clicks to finally get to "choose" what it should replace with! However, all this having been said, I _WILL_ start diciplining myself to use the proper convention, it is only that I never had to due to VB's hand-holding. Whatever some people may say about VB, the IDE's intellisense and its intuitiveness is extremely useful, and aside from a staunch purist perspective, I can't see how anyone wouldn't want that kind of functionality. You can turn it off if you don't want it. Maybe this will be refined in future versions of java IDEs. > Let's say I start typing dim strMyString as st > Once I start the word that follows "as" the IDE knows I'm declaring a > variable and it starts auto-suggesting things as I type. This may not NetBeans already does this, at least to a degree. As long as you get the first couple of characters correct (capitalization counts), NetBeans will pop up a suggested list of identifiers, with the first ones being most likely. You can press Control-Space to force this behavior if it hasn't kicked in yet (maybe NetBeans thinks there are too many identifiers still that match). You can also press Control-K to match variable names that are in scope. This is a great why to copy parameters name from the argument list of a method. > Let's say I had not capitalized "string" > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > redline's the word), but also popup with suggestions, probably the > foremost being "String" I don't think that NetBeans will suggest that string be String here. It will recognize that there is (most likely) a syntax error here and put a red line under string, but you'll have to get the first few characters of String correct then hit Control-Space to get a completion. It's actually not too bad of an idea however. Most Java programmers just get used to case correctness I guess. I don't mind it. Still some basic "word processor spelling checker" features like spotting incorrect capitalization and transposed characters might not be a bad addition to the editor. Hmmm..... ... > Despite what many have suggested, that myFunction and MyFuntioN are > two distinct things, I cannot imagine anyone wanting to use them > differently within any project... it makes for some serious confusion > not to mention not very good in terms of re-usability and clarity to > other developers looking at the code. ... You will not get comfortable in a case-significant language until you get used to thinking of them as distinct things. For example, I've seen case used to distinguish between a constructor parameter and a field that will remember it. Patricia > .... >> Despite what many have suggested, that myFunction and MyFuntioN are [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > case used to distinguish between a constructor parameter and a field > that will remember it. Having the IDE substitute "String" for "string" is as bad as having it substitute "Integer" for "string". SignatureLew > Despite what many have suggested, that myFunction and MyFuntioN are > two distinct things, I cannot imagine anyone wanting to use them [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > fundamental tenets I stick to is the code should be as consistent and > distinct and readable as possible. Java's case-sensitiveness forces you to write a given identifier every time in the same manner. Don't you think that improves clarity and readability? Note: in VB, it's your editor (a /specific/ editor) which enforced consistency for your identifier's spelling. Not the language. I have, sigh, been forced (well, kinda) to write VB.NET just recently. It has been pissing me off in some ways, but the single thing which made me really despise it was its case-INsensitivity, among other reasons because it restricted my choices of identifiers -- what with its load of keywords. As for you being spoiled: I'd rather use the term "ruined". With all due respect. In the course of my .NET excursion, I've had to train a few apprentices. The first thing I usually get irritated about is their lax handling of character case. My advice is this: regardless of whether the piece of software you're using allows you to trade an 'a' for an 'A' (a very wide-spread phenomenon in the Microsoft world), *ALWAYS* mind the case. This isn't the pathetic ranting of a pricky old geezer, for I'm not old. It's about the, IMO, single most important trait of a programmer: discipline. And discipline in programming is an all-or-nothing trade. Minding case and similar "small" things might yield direct benefits -- but possibly only so much and those benefits might be got otherwise, as with your editor enforcing your spelling's consistency. What's most important with these things is the /attitude/ they help you develop (or rather, admittedly: impose on you). Although it is only natural for coertion to be percieved negatively by its object(s), in this case and in the end it's a Good Thing (TM), IMO. df. >> Despite what many have suggested, that myFunction and MyFuntioN are >> two distinct things, I cannot imagine anyone wanting to use them [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > readability? Note: in VB, it's your editor (a /specific/ editor) which > enforced consistency for your identifier's spelling. Not the language. I disagree with this. In English, capitalization of a word can change depending on its context, without changing the meaning. I'll capitalize a word in a title that I would not capitalize in the middle of a normal sentence. I don't think that makes English writers sloppy - it just means capitalization does not have much to do with word meaning in that language. I don't have a strong view about which is better for programming languages, case sensitive or case insensitive. Either works well. What matters is for the programmer to match thinking and attitude to the language - and that applies to a lot more than case sensitivity. If you are programming in a case sensitive language, it is important to really see "String" and "string" as different words, even though they would be the same word in English or in any case-insensitive programming language. Equally, if you are programming in a case-insensitive language, you need to see them as the same word. > This isn't the pathetic ranting of a pricky old geezer, for I'm not old. > It's about the, IMO, single most important trait of a programmer: > discipline. On the other hand, this really is the pathetic ranting of a pricky old geezeress? geezerette? she-geezer? (What is the female of "geezer" anyway?). IMO, the most important trait of a programmer is mental flexibility, including the ability to adjust thinking to fit the problem and programming language. It is important to be disciplined about the things that matter in the current context, and a waste of time and effort to be unnecessarily precise about things that don't matter. Patricia >>> Despite what many have suggested, that myFunction and MyFuntioN >>> are two distinct things, I cannot imagine anyone wanting to use [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > sloppy - it just means capitalization does not have much to do with > word meaning in that language. Well, my point was about programming languages, i.e. totally different things than English. Consequently, what holds true for the former need not be applicable to the latter, and what's a contradiction to the latter needs not be a contradiction to the former. > I don't have a strong view about which is better for programming > languages, case sensitive or case insensitive. Either works well. I'd agree either work equally well as far as the programming language is concerned. I'd disagree either work equally well as far as the /programmer/ is concerned. > What matters is for the programmer to match thinking and attitude to > the language - and that applies to a lot more than case sensitivity. Why, certainly. Actually, one /automatically/ tends match their thinking and attitude to the tool they use for (personal) productivity all day long (IOW as long as they don't switch languages really often), since that's a premice for maximizing effectiveness. This phenomenon is a crucial part of my argumentation. I argue that there are languages which are /better/ to match with your thinking than others. > If you are programming in a case sensitive language, it is important > to really see "String" and "string" as different words, even though > they would be the same word in English or in any case-insensitive > programming language. Equally, if you are programming in a > case-insensitive language, you need to see them as the same word. Again, that's my point. If "String" and "string" are the same thing, you have to do additional checks while reading. Think collated comparisions versus plain ones. If you can be sure that a sequence of characters you're looking for (say for instance you're tracking a variable's use in an algorithm) will appear, if relevant, in exactly the same form you saw it first in, then it's much less of a mental strain to find it. Remember the topic which came up a while ago, about humans being able to read a (-n English) sentence where the words' letters were in a slightly different order? The explanation is that in order to read fast, one does not look at the individual letters, but at the word as a whole. Take the example I gave above again. You're looking for a variable. If the language is case-sensitive, you can rely on the word's /shape/ and do not have to look at the individual characters. Thus, you avoid a sementical translation of the letter's graphical shape to the abstract "letter". Easier. You can feel it. Actually, the biggest point in my favor is brought by the makers of the standard editor for the language the OP spoke about: Visual Basic/Studio (I can't seem to get its name straight). By default, that editor will change any word you type to match a certain case: capitalized for keywords (IIRC) or the exact spelling of whatever variable matches the word just typed when compared toLowerCase(). Now, guess why it does that: because otherwise it's a pain in the a.s (the size of moderately large pumpkin) to read. If they agree it's a necessity for the result, they should agree it had even better be built into the language in the first place. >> This isn't the pathetic ranting of a pricky old geezer, for I'm not >> old. It's about the, IMO, single most important trait of a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > old geezeress? geezerette? she-geezer? (What is the female of > "geezer" anyway?). Patricia. :-P > IMO, the most important trait of a programmer is mental flexibility, > including the ability to adjust thinking to fit the problem and > programming language. It is important to be disciplined about the > things that matter in the current context, and a waste of time and > effort to be unnecessarily precise about things that don't matter. I don't disagree with that. However, note how, as an allegory, gymnastics are seldom performed on quicksand. For you need firm ground to be flexible. df. ... > Actually, the biggest point in my favor is brought by the makers of the > standard editor for the language the OP spoke about: Visual Basic/Studio [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If they agree it's a necessity for the result, they should agree it had > even better be built into the language in the first place. Indentation is not significant in Java, yet many programmers, myself included, routinely use editors that ensure indentation consistent with statement nesting. As indicated by protests in this newsgroup, some programmers find unindented Java code somewhere between painful and impossible to read. I tend not to bother to protest badly indented code - if I care at all about the code, I'm too busy loading it into Eclipse and running Source - Format on it. Do you think that makes Java inferior to languages in which statement nesting is controlled by indentation? Patricia > Do you think that makes Java inferior to languages in which statement > nesting is controlled by indentation? I still can't decide on that one. On one hand, having both indentation and block syntax ({...}) that represent the same thing, is redundant. Being redundant, it's an error waiting to happen when the two get out of sync. Humans rely on indentation, and only use the block syntax for verification. The compiler only understands the syntax. if (foo == bar) foo = 42; bar = 43; System.out.println(foo + ":" + bar); It has happened to me at least once. So yes, I do believe that a language where something as important as block structure is only represented once is better at the DRY principle, and is therefore superior. On the other hand, whitespace having meaning really rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps because I've been bitten by tab/space confusion, and even \u0020 vs \u00a0. /L SignatureLasse Reichstein Nielsen - lrn@hotpop.com DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html> 'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.' >Humans rely on indentation Then I am not human. >On the other hand, whitespace having meaning really rubs me the >wrong way. Perhaps because I've been bitten by tab/space confusion, >and even \u0020 vs \u00a0. http://www.research.att.com/~bs/whitespace98.pdf > On the other hand, whitespace having meaning really rubs me the > wrong way. Perhaps because I've been bitten by tab/space confusion, > and even \u0020 vs \u00a0. I have used a compiler (Fortran) that gave a fatal error due to a blank line at the end. Not so easy to spot. Arne Lasse Reichstein Nielsen wrote : >> Do you think that makes Java inferior to languages in which statement >> nesting is controlled by indentation? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > System.out.println(foo + ":" + bar); Ok, but that is why there are auto-formaters. For instance Ecplise will format on save. So you press CTRL-S, the file is formatted and your source is saved. So the above would now look like: if (foo == bar) foo = 42; bar = 43; System.out.println(foo + ":" + bar); SignatureWojtek :-) Lasse Reichstein Nielsen wrote : >> On one hand, having both indentation and block syntax ({...}) that >> represent the same thing, is redundant. Being redundant, it's an [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> System.out.println(foo + ":" + bar); > Ok, but that is why there are auto-formaters. For instance Ecplise will > format on save. So you press CTRL-S, the file is formatted and your [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > System.out.println(foo + ":" + bar); There are two domains of discourse here when we speak of "meaning" in source code. One is meaning for programmers working on that source. The other is meaning for the machine that ultimately runs the program embodied in the source. I shall call the first the "meaning" of the program, and the second the "semantics" of the program. Just for discussion purposes - I doubt I'm using these terms in any endorsed way. Languages that enforce semantics via indentation presumably intend to enforce consistency between the meaning and the semantics. Unfortunately in practice over the years that style has turned out to be somewhat fragile. Overall, most programmers find semantically-neutral indentation to be easier to use to convey meaning. In other words, being loose about the semantics allows the developer to be much more accurate conveying the meaning. It does introduce that risk of having the meaning and semantics contradict each other by failing to indent properly. This seems to be a concomitant cost to gaining the power to control how the meaning is documented. It just slightly adds to the burden of the source maintainer to be careful, thorough and smart. Since they're doing that anyway, it shouldn't be too egregious to match meaning with indentation while they're about it. SignatureLew Lew wrote : > Since they're doing that anyway, it shouldn't be too egregious to match > meaning with indentation while they're about it. I sure hope not. Complier enforced white-space (other than as a delimiter) is a Bad Thing. I remember the first time I coded in COBOL. It took me several tries to get a clean compile, and I was copying from an instructor supplied sample. And it was ALL column positioning. And it is the same with RPG, another column dependant language. Program indentation problems with free form languages is all the developers fault. And at that Ecplise flags empty bodies, so something like for ( int c = 0; c < max; c++); would be caught. SignatureWojtek :-) >If you are used to a language in which identifier capitalization is not >significant you may benefit from an IDE that will mark undefined >identifiers and offer corrections. The other way so make Java's picky capitalisation less painful, till you get used to it, is to RIGIDLY follow the naming conventions, which include capitalisation rules. If you are sloppy, you make life 100 times more complicated than it need be. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/codingconventions.html I recall my early frustration. Now cap errors appear as glaring as spelling errors. The catch is, I have a heck of a time reading newbie code that violates the coding conventions. To make matters worse, whenever I correct newbies, some nerd will point out the coding conventions are not enforced by the compiler so the newbie can code caps and name variables any screwy way he pleases, nya nya nya. You will see some posters like patient sheepdogs constantly herding newbies who write arraylist when they mean ArrayList, trying to get them to understand it DOES matter. SignatureRoedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 00:44:36 -0500, Atreju <someone@who.hates.junkmail> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >However, the text editor it comes with is buggy You might want to jump directly to an IDE. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/ide.html If you want to stick with a text editor see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/editor.html for some possibilities. I suggest speed dating. Asking someone to arrange a marriage for you won't work, since everyone has such specific tastes in what they like in a editor. SignatureRoedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com Roedy Green, 12.12.2007 17:12: > If you want to stick with a text editor see > http://mindprod.com/jgloss/editor.html > for some possibilities. You might want to add PSPad (www.pspad.com) to that list. Thomas > However, the text editor it comes with is buggy (for example, doesn't > colorize syntax until file is saved) and doesn't really do what I > need, and I'm wondering if anyone knows of any java-aware freeware > editors that do what i need: A small suite of editors: * vim -- with knowledge and utilization of some helper external programs (like exuberant-ctags), this is a very powerful tool. * emacs -- I've never used it; I'm just putting it in here to straddle both sides of the emacs/vim editor wars * NetBeans \ The standard Java editors. I myself can't recommend one * Eclipse / of these over the other one. * JBuilder -- I used to use this heavily, but I have grown less fond of it, probably due to my increasing desire for handling the command-line part myself. * jEdit -- My editor of choice on Windows computers, this program seems to go through active and dead development periods. Crappy without installing many of the plugins: Console and ErrorList are necessary. SignatureBeware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth > However, the text editor it comes with is buggy (for example, doesn't > colorize syntax until file is saved) and doesn't really do what I > need, and I'm wondering if anyone knows of any java-aware freeware > editors that do what i need: Several has suggested an IDE. And for you usage I think an IDE is indeed the best choice. Personally I prefer Eclipse. But that does not imply that you will do the same. If you insist on a general purpose editor with Java support, then I will recommend JEdit. I use it for all my non-IDE editing and really like it. > For example, I had compile errors a few times because I failed to > capitalize the word "String" and simliarly I named a method > "showAttributes" but when I called it in an application I accidentally > capitalized ShowAttributes and it did not recognize any time I used it > like that, until I changed them to lowercase the way it is written in > the method declaration. The Java language is case sensitive. If you use Eclipse, then in case of errors due to wrong capitalization, then it will often be capable of suggesting a proper change to you. Arne Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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