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Java Forum / General / November 2007

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Printer Tracking Dots

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Roedy Green - 09 Nov 2007 07:26 GMT
I discovered yet another intrusion on civil liberties by the
Department of Fatherland Security.

see
http://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-display-tracking-dots

Basically many printers now print a hidden code on the page that lets
any image printed by that printer to be tracked back to that
particular printer.  So if for example if you print an anonymous
anti-Bush tract  on your printer the bad guys can track it back to
your printer and beat you to a pulp.

The page lists which printers have this snooping feature and which do
not.  There is a "tracking chip" in the printer that does this, so
this applies to all OSes, including printing done with Java or via PS.
Signature

Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com

kc.wong.ird@gmail.com - 09 Nov 2007 07:43 GMT
On 11 9 ,   3 26 , Roedy Green <see_webs...@mindprod.com.invalid>
wrote:
> Basically many printers now print a hidden code on the page that lets
> any image printed by that printer to be tracked back to that
> particular printer.  So if for example if you print an anonymous
> anti-Bush tract  on your printer the bad guys can track it back to
> your printer and beat you to a pulp.

0_o Never heard of that before. What kind of blue light is needed to
see the dots?

In any case I don't own any of those models... I rarely print, and my
printer is an old laser jet, HP LaserJet 5L. I have it disconnected
under my desk, in dust cover, for several years.
Martin Gregorie - 09 Nov 2007 11:20 GMT
> On 11 9 ,   3 26 , Roedy Green <see_webs...@mindprod.com.invalid>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> printer is an old laser jet, HP LaserJet 5L. I have it disconnected
> under my desk, in dust cover, for several years.

I've heard of the technique but don't know how widespread it is.
Actually, I think this was introduced as an anti-forgery measure, rather
than something more McCarthyite.

The description I read said the dots were a pale pastel, e.g. a pale
lemon colour, which implies that the technique only works with a colour
printer. Its easy to defeat: use a monochrome printer.

There are lots of additional benefits if you ditch an inkjet in favour
of a monochrome laser, particularly if you buy an LJ5:
- monochrome lasers are *much* cheaper to run than inkjets.
- LJ5s are built like brick outhouses and run forever.
- Used ones are easy to find and cheap.
- If you're lucky you'll even find one with a network card in it.
- cartridges are easy to find, both new and on eBay.
- HP laserjets from at least the LJ2 to the latest all speak PCL.
- each model added a superset to PCL, so you can send LJ2 PCL to
  a current model. It will work fine, but not print the latest
  fancy twiddles.
- HP LJ printers are widespread, so you'll already have a suitable
  driver if you're running Linux or any Windows later than 3.11.

I replaced an Epson Stylus, which used to use a couple of sets of tiny,
expensive cartridges a year, with a used plane jane LJ5 a couple of
years ago. The cartridge that was in it has shown no sign at all of
getting low in the two years I've had the machine. The only downside is
that Multimap maps are not so clear in b&w, but that's a small price to pay.

Signature

martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

Roedy Green - 09 Nov 2007 21:42 GMT
On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:20:46 +0000, Martin Gregorie
<martin@see.sig.for.address> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>The description I read said the dots were a pale pastel, e.g. a pale
>lemon colour, which implies that the technique only works with a colour
>printer. Its easy to defeat: use a monochrome printer.

In principle, even if you printed a monochrome page, they could add
some yellow dots to it, if you had a colour printer.  Further, in
principle you could add some black dots for the same purpose.

You expect thing like this in cheque blanks, but not in posters.
It a betrayal of trust.  It is like discovering your digital cellphone
has a chip to let Nokia tap your financial transactions, or every ball
point pen has a deliberate different ink formulation and all ball
point pen sales are secretly tracked to credit card and debit card
numbers.

Big brother, get STUFFED!

Read up on Herbert Hoover, a fanatical snoop who held the rich and
powerful in terror through his low-tech, high-budget snooping.  He was
a very corrupt man. He even tried to force Martin Luther King to
commit suicide.

This power to pry guarantees abuse. It is human nature.

Signature

Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com

Martin Gregorie - 09 Nov 2007 23:46 GMT
> On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:20:46 +0000, Martin Gregorie
> <martin@see.sig.for.address> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> some yellow dots to it, if you had a colour printer.  Further, in
> principle you could add some black dots for the same purpose.

That is why I said to use a "monochrome printer", not "your colour
printer in greyscale mode".

> You expect thing like this in cheque blanks, but not in posters.
> It a betrayal of trust.

As I said, IIRC it was developed to stop bad guys printing banknotes
with a scanner, Photoshop and a colour printer once scanner and printer
resolutions got good enough resolution to make non-obvious fakes.

Keep up, lad!   :-)

> Read up on Herbert Hoover, a fanatical snoop who held the rich and
> powerful in terror through his low-tech, high-budget snooping.  He was
> a very corrupt man. He even tried to force Martin Luther King to
> commit suicide.

Just as well Hoover and Joe McCarthy never got (metaphorically) into bed
 together. Hey, maybe they did and it wasn't metaphoric. After all its
said that ole Herb liked wearing a dress from time to time.

Signature

martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

Roedy Green - 10 Nov 2007 07:17 GMT
On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 23:46:42 +0000, Martin Gregorie
<martin@see.sig.for.address> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>As I said, IIRC it was developed to stop bad guys printing banknotes
>with a scanner, Photoshop and a colour printer once scanner and printer
>resolutions got good enough resolution to make non-obvious fakes.
>
>Keep up, lad!   :-)

It if was simply to scramble counterfeits they would not need to
encode the identity.

If somebody published a phone list of 7 year old girls when they are
home alone, presumably to help babysitters get jobs, they are still
responsible for misuse of that list. Same for Canon's technology.  

Further they did this COVERTLY.  The covertness suggests their alleged
motivations are not true. Otherwise there would be no need for
secrecy.
Signature

Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com

Martin Gregorie - 10 Nov 2007 18:06 GMT
> It if was simply to scramble counterfeits they would not need to
> encode the identity.

With respect, I think the idea of encoding the printer serial number was
to help track down and arrest the counterfeiters. That makes sense to
me. This use has been confirmed by HP. The encoding is described as a
sort of bar code. My guess is that it would need to be only one or two
matrix lines high to remain hard to see and to occupy as little paper
space as possible.

I agree with you that it would be bad news if some future paranoid
government should use it to track printer users but why would they
bother? The NSA is already monitoring all Internet traffic that crosses
the US. They and the FBI can also access all phone call detail records
and I bet the same applies to GCHQ in this country. As a result they
simply don't need to track the increasingly small amount of printed
material as well.

> Further they did this COVERTLY.  The covertness suggests their alleged
> motivations are not true. Otherwise there would be no need for
> secrecy.

NSA, CIA, MI5/6, GCHQ all use covert methods whether they need to be
secret or not. I don't think it occurs to then to ask that question.
Besides, they're all spooks; they *like* secrecy.

Signature

martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

Roedy Green - 12 Nov 2007 01:59 GMT
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:06:01 +0000, Martin Gregorie
<martin@see.sig.for.address> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>With respect, I think the idea of encoding the printer serial number was
>to help track down and arrest the counterfeiters.

Fine, but don't do it surreptitiously.  People have likely died or
been tortured to death by keeping that big brother trick secret.
Signature

Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com

Martin Gregorie - 12 Nov 2007 12:24 GMT
> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:06:01 +0000, Martin Gregorie
> <martin@see.sig.for.address> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Fine, but don't do it surreptitiously.  People have likely died or
> been tortured to death by keeping that big brother trick secret.

I don't see how you can avoid keeping it secret. Granted that nasty
Savak-type people can misuse it, but if its not secret than any
counterfeiter with a clue will know about it and use another printer,
which sort of defeats its declared purpose.

Signature

martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

Roedy Green - 13 Nov 2007 08:08 GMT
On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 21:42:04 GMT, Roedy Green
<see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>Read up on Herbert Hoover, a fanatical snoop who held the rich and
>powerful in terror through his low-tech, high-budget snooping.  He was
>a very corrupt man. He even tried to force Martin Luther King to
>commit suicide.

oops. J. Edgar Hoover, the guy who kept secrets on others sitting on
some lulus of his own: transvestism, homosexuality, and money from the
mob while maintaining the public persona as bulldog crime fighter.
Signature

Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com

RedGrittyBrick - 09 Nov 2007 11:33 GMT
> I discovered yet another intrusion on civil liberties by the
> Department of Fatherland Security.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> any image printed by that printer to be tracked back to that
> particular printer.

This is old old news Roedy. It was widely reported in 2004, 2005.
<http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,118664-page,1/article.html>
<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/18/AR2005101801663.html>
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/20/outlaw_printer_dots/>

In other breaking news: JRE 1.5 has been released!!!

> So if for example if you print an anonymous
> anti-Bush tract  on your printer the bad guys can track it back to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> not.  There is a "tracking chip" in the printer that does this, so
> this applies to all OSes, including printing done with Java or via PS.

I know CLJP often wanders far off topic but I'd prefer to get my civil
liberties news elsewhere :-)

Please.

Pretty please?
Roedy Green - 09 Nov 2007 21:31 GMT
On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:33:28 +0000, RedGrittyBrick
<RedGrittyBrick@SpamWeary.foo> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>This is old old news Roedy. It was widely reported in 2004, 2005.

It may be old news, but it is perhaps more germane now with so many
repressive regimes in the world cracking down on pro-democracy
movements.

Further, you may be the only one here who caught it first time around,
and you apparently sat on the information.

My printer is not on the list, but I consider what Canon did a major
break of faith.  They had no business introducing such a feature
without informing the customers. I wrote them telling them they are
now on my lifetime boycott list.


Signature

Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com

Jeff - 12 Nov 2007 03:43 GMT
On Nov 9, 4:31 pm, Roedy Green <see_webs...@mindprod.com.invalid>
wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:33:28 +0000, RedGrittyBrick
> <RedGrittyBr...@SpamWeary.foo> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
> The Java Glossaryhttp://mindprod.com

And I think you are a total idiot and completely off topic. Herbert
Hoover? You mean the President of the US from 1929 to 1933?? Try J.
Edgar Hoover. Try some Risperdal or Thorazine for your paranoia.
Roedy Green - 10 Nov 2007 07:14 GMT
On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 07:26:55 GMT, Roedy Green
<see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
someone who said :

>I discovered yet another intrusion on civil liberties by the
>Department of Fatherland Security.

Canon wrote back when I complained they had betrayed the trust of
their customers.

Thank you for your E-mail inquiry regarding the i450 printer.

The i450 does not pace yellow track dots onto the printed documents at
all. In fact none of our consumer level bubble jet product place
yellow track dots onto the printed page.
The products that are shown on the website are all commercial colour
laser products.
According to the federal government this is a requirement to curd or
prevent copying of documents such as

Paper money

Money orders

Certificates of deposit

Postage stamps (canceled or uncanceled)

Identifying badges or insignias

Selective service or draft papers

Checks or drafts issued by governmental agencies

Motor vehicle licenses and certificates of title
 
Traveler's checks

Food stamps

Passports

Immigration papers

Internal revenue stamps (canceled or uncanceled)

Bonds or other certificates of indebtedness

Stock certificates

Copyrighted works/works of art without permission of copyright owner


The yellow track dots allow the federal government to identify the
manufacturer of the product that made the copy during an
investigation.

Should you require further assistance, please feel free to email us or
visit our customer support website at http://www.canon.ca 

Sincerely,

Jevon T.

Technical Support Representative

Customer Information Centre

Canon Canada Inc.

Signature

Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com

Andrew Thompson - 10 Nov 2007 08:27 GMT
...
>Sincerely,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Canon Canada Inc.

Well that was a lot more polite than "piss off, ya' loony!".

High points for Jevon T. TSR,  from the CIC of Canon Canada (Inc.)!

Oh, and in regard to RGB  'sitting on' the information, that
is simply ludicrous.
1) It was widely discussed at the time.  (I can recall hearing
about it - and I do not go looking for that kind of information.)
2) ..in the presss, and on the relevant groups.
3) ..of which, this is not.
4) According to GG profiles, RedGrittyBrick started
posting in May 2005 - I do not know when they began
posting on comp.lang.java.* groups exactly (my vague
impression is 4-6 months) but the first two months of
postings were to completely non java groups.  So it
might be surmised that by the time RGB began posting
*here*, the 2004/2005 inclusion of the dots was 'old news'.

Now, please use a monochrome printer* and stop bugging
us about it.

* Or 'save the trees' and do without those damnable devices.

Signature

Andrew Thompson
http://www.athompson.info/andrew/

Lew - 10 Nov 2007 14:36 GMT
> * Or 'save the trees' and do without those damnable devices.

I've never understood what's supposed to be so bad about hugging trees.

Hugging trees is good.

"Treehugger" makes about as much sense as an insult as does "peacenik".

Signature

Lew

Martin Gregorie - 10 Nov 2007 18:09 GMT
> Hugging trees is good.

...except when  it gets your clothes covered in pine or eucalyptus resin.

> "Treehugger" makes about as much sense as an insult as does "peacenik".

True.

Signature

martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

Andrew Thompson - 11 Nov 2007 03:05 GMT
>> Hugging trees is good.
>
>...except when  it gets your clothes covered in pine or eucalyptus resin.

Forget your clothes!  Try applying Eucalyptus resin to any
'sensitive part' of the human body.  Boy does it *sting*!

(Defensively: not that I go in for 'naked' tree-hugging, but
Eucalyptus Oil is sold as a medicine in Oz.  ..Really!)

Signature

Andrew Thompson
http://www.athompson.info/andrew/

Andrew Thompson - 11 Nov 2007 02:56 GMT
>> * Or 'save the trees' and do without those damnable devices.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>"Treehugger" makes about as much sense as an insult as does "peacenik".

I ..kind of regard myself as a tree-hugging peacenik.

Except when I realise that if loved ones were threatened
by 'invading marauders', I'd fell the tree*, form the trunk
into shafts, make one end pointy, and toss them at the
invaders (pointy end first).

Do I still qualify, or should I hand in my 'tree-hugging
peacenik' card?   ;-)

* Failing easy access to better weapons.

Signature

Andrew Thompson
http://www.athompson.info/andrew/

John W. Kennedy - 12 Nov 2007 04:15 GMT
>> * Or 'save the trees' and do without those damnable devices.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> "Treehugger" makes about as much sense as an insult as does "peacenik".

Well, one of the Shakespeare-denying loonies on
humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare claims to have taken to tree-hugging
in quite the wrong way....
Signature

John W. Kennedy
"I want everybody to be smart. As smart as they can be. A world of
ignorant people is too dangerous to live in."
  -- Garson Kanin. "Born Yesterday"

Andrew Thompson - 12 Nov 2007 14:22 GMT
>>> * Or 'save the trees' and do without those damnable devices.
...
>> "Treehugger" makes about as much sense as an insult as does "peacenik".
>
>Well, one of the Shakespeare-denying loonies on
>humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare claims to have taken to tree-hugging
>in quite the wrong way....

Is there such a thing as 'bad touching' with a tree?

I mean, yeah, sure - I can understand if it were a *shrub*..

Signature

Andrew Thompson
http://www.athompson.info/andrew/

John W. Kennedy - 13 Nov 2007 04:03 GMT
>>>> * Or 'save the trees' and do without those damnable devices.
> ...
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Is there such a thing as 'bad touching' with a tree?

Apparently....
Signature

John W. Kennedy
"...if you had to fall in love with someone who was evil, I can see why
it was her."
  -- "Alias"



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