Java Forum / General / September 2007
Eclipse?!
gwoodhouse@gmail.com - 11 Sep 2007 15:32 GMT Hello all,
Hope you can help. I started work in a new company yesterday (hurray) and the office uses Eclipse. I miss netbeans!!
Problem is, ive been wrestling all day with the thing trying to find a plugin so it will give me a JSP editor (with predictive text would be nice) but i can't find one on the eclipse plugin site and the ones from google seem to want me to pay.
Hopefully someone will know of one and i wont be forced to used UltraEdit32 :P
Graeme Woodhouse
Lew - 11 Sep 2007 16:21 GMT > Hello all, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Hopefully someone will know of one and i wont be forced to used > UltraEdit32 :P Use NB anyway. Java is Java, and source is just a text file. Class files are standard, JARs are the same from anywhere. Once you've produced your artifacts, no one can tell if they were made with Eclipse, NetBeans or vi + Ant.
All test and production builds should be done from the command line with Ant. All, always.
They hired you to write software, yes? They didn't hire you to be an IDE expert, right? So you should use the tool that lets you do the job for which they pay you.
Incidentally, the English word "I" should always be capitalized.
 Signature Lew
mich - 11 Sep 2007 16:57 GMT >> Hello all, >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Use NB anyway. Might not be a good idea when you start a new job. Why not explain that you are not familiar with Eclispe and ask for a bit of help?
Roedy Green - 11 Sep 2007 17:03 GMT >Once you've produced your >artifacts, no one can tell if they were made with Eclipse, NetBeans or vi + Ant. The problem is they don't have compatible beautifiers. Every time you check out module and beautify it and check it back in, you will introduce false deltas if you use a different IDE from the team. People have been killed for less.
One possibility is to always beautify with Eclipse before checkin.
 Signature Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com
Lew - 11 Sep 2007 18:05 GMT > The problem is they don't have compatible beautifiers. Every time you > check out module and beautify it and check it back in, you will > introduce false deltas if you use a different IDE from the team. > People have been killed for less. Given that both Eclipse and NetBeans have individually configurable beautifiers, as does every other important programmers' editor, the fault, dear Reader, lies not in our IDEs, but in ourselves, that we are possessed of individuality and free will. [1]
Two points about version control and false deltas.
Point one, Roedy is right, only the problem is more general than just in Editor Wars. [2] Ergo the version control systems should handle it. In this sense, the fault lies not in ourselves but in CVS and Subversion.
Actually, version control systems come with the tools to handle the job. 'cvs diff', for example, leverages diff's '-B','-b' and '-w' options. They don't have to report the changes in just whitespace.
Point two, it's no big deal to store whitespace-only deltas, from a storage standpoint. Deltas are called that because they store differential information, so a whitespace-only delta isn't so horrid.
This begs the question of whether changes in whitespace are "false". They may not be of interest in a certain context, but they are changes. Hence the diff whitespace-ignoring options, which give the practitioner freedom to decide. Bear in mind that no sane or responsible developer should ever check in a whitespace-only delta - any whitespace changes will be concomitant to substantive ones.
Nevertheless, there will be changes in whitespace if developers are given the license to run rampant with their blanks and newlines.
The whitespace-delta issue is not one of IDE configuration but of individual programmer style. Even within a single IDE programmers can have different settings. That makes whitespace management a management issue, i.e., a process question.
To address the question, a team must choose:
- the importance of a whitespace standard. With daily builds and automated testing, the significance of whitespace changes may be negligible and no further concern justified. Maybe we should just all get along with any reasonable layout, and just tell every developer to reformat as they see fit whenever it's their turn to work on a source artifact. Make a molehill out of the mountain.
- whether to mandate or automate source layout. Whitespace layout is a matter of programmer productivity - there is a kind of "impedance match" between a layout and a programmer's mental efficiency. Forcing developers to conform to a single standard may reduce productivity, and may not be necessary. Simply run all source through a standard prettifier on the 'cvs export' to a documentation tree (or Subversion equivalent, natch). You even configure an "on commit" action, as CVS does via the commitinfo commands. [3]
- how all this fits into the larger deploy-and-test strategy.
with perhaps special consideration to comment layout.
Conclusion:
I conclude that programmers should use the editor(s) or IDE(s) of their own choice, with the whitespace of their choice, with the version control system of the team's choice, via scripts or other automata that format the whitespace to the team standard on the way in to the repository, in a context of quotidian build-and-test cycles that use Ant and similar command-line tools and pretty-formatting on the export (yes, redundantly). I'd much rather see clear and thorough Javadoc comments now the programmer need not take the time to worry whether a brace belongs on its own line.
Footnotes:
[1] misquote from Shakespeare, /Julius Caesar/, Act I, Scene II. [2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editor_wars> [3] <http://ximbiot.com/cvs/manual/cvs-1.11.22/cvs_18.html#SEC171>
 Signature Lew
Wojtek - 11 Sep 2007 18:51 GMT Lew wrote :
> Actually, version control systems come with the tools to handle the job. > 'cvs diff', for example, leverages diff's '-B','-b' and '-w' options. They > don't have to report the changes in just whitespace. Except where the whitespace is significant.
String a = "Hello"; a += " there";
vs
String a = "Hello "; a += "there";
 Signature Wojtek :-)
Lew - 11 Sep 2007 19:05 GMT Roedy Green wrote:
>> The problem is they don't have compatible beautifiers. Every time you >> check out module and beautify it and check it back in, you will >> introduce false deltas if you use a different IDE from the team. >> People have been killed for less.
> Lew wrote : >> Actually, version control systems come with the tools to handle the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > String a = "Hello "; > a += "there"; AFAIK the prettifiers will not mess with that part of the whitespace, so neither the process issue nor its solution is altered. It is an issue with 'diff', thus 'cvs diff', yes, you got that right. Most of the time I don't use '-b' or '-W' anyway. Maybe '-B' and '-E' are enough.
In practice there usually isn't a whole lot of variation in only (non-significant) whitespace between checkins. Most shops are (alas) not in the habit of rotating the same code amongst several developers during its growth. What swapping occurs usually happens with verbal interchanges between those involved. Rarely will most people mess with whitespace in the parts of the file they're not actively altering. This suggests that 'diff'ing with awareness of whitespace is just fine, necessary in light of your observation. It suggests that while people certainly "have killed for less", they certainly had no more reason to than developers over whitespace. It's just not enough of a problem that is so hard to handle - you take a very open attitude about it, you automate prettification where prettification is needed and you start paying attention to things like whether your software works, is robust, has good logging, excellent documentation, is expandable, algorithmically sound, efficient, satisfying to use.
Or waste your time worrying about layout while your customers howl for production releases and new features, or that things stop crashing, or that no one knows how to use or fix the damn thing.
Just let programmers put (non-significant) whitespace in any reasonable pattern. More shops have a problem with programmer staff who cannot actually program than they do with whitespace-motivated homicide.
 Signature Lew
gwoodhouse@gmail.com - 12 Sep 2007 08:23 GMT Thank you everyone for your help.
I'm downloading the eclipse WTP all includsive download with prequisits from the Eclipse.org site. I've been told if you download it all as a huge chunk then you actually get the correct editor tools for jsp/jstl etc.
If you dont hear any more on this thread then - It worked! Huzzah.
link : [http://download.eclipse.org/webtools/downloads/]
Graeme
Arne Vajhøj - 15 Sep 2007 03:52 GMT >> Hope you can help. I started work in a new company yesterday (hurray) >> and the office uses Eclipse. I miss netbeans!! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> nice) but i can't find one on the eclipse plugin site and the ones >> from google seem to want me to pay.
> Use NB anyway. Java is Java, and source is just a text file. Class > files are standard, JARs are the same from anywhere. Once you've [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > IDE expert, right? So you should use the tool that lets you do the job > for which they pay you. I think that is questionable advice.
It could bring the poster in problems with his new tech lead.
And some problems could be real: different templates, different source formatting, IDE project files checked into source control etc..
Arne
Joe Attardi - 15 Sep 2007 04:00 GMT > I think that is questionable advice. > It could bring the poster in problems with his new tech lead. If the tech lead relies on a particular IDE being used across the development team, perhaps he/she shouldn't be a tech lead. The IDE is just a tool to get the job done.
> And some problems could be real: different templates, different > source formatting, IDE project files checked into source control etc.. So use a tool like Checkstyle to enforce any particular coding standards.
 Signature Joe Attardi | Massachusetts, USA jattardi@gmail.com | http://thinksincode.blogspot.com/
Arne Vajhøj - 16 Sep 2007 22:22 GMT >> I think that is questionable advice. >> It could bring the poster in problems with his new tech lead.
> If the tech lead relies on a particular IDE being used across the > development team, perhaps he/she shouldn't be a tech lead. The IDE is > just a tool to get the job done. True but time spend on tools still cost the company money.
The tech lead must consider whether the benefits outweigh the cost.
There is a cost associated with every tool used.
I find it hard to believe that there long term will be any benefits of using NetBeans instead of Eclipse (same the other way around - there would be a long term benefit of using any of them instead of notepad).
There are places where developers are allowed to pick the tools they prefer. But I am pretty sure that the majority of places has a corporate standard for tools.
>> And some problems could be real: different templates, different >> source formatting, IDE project files checked into source control etc.. > So use a tool like Checkstyle to enforce any particular coding standards. That is just introducing a third tool. It would make it even worse.
Arne
Arne Vajhøj - 15 Sep 2007 03:47 GMT > Hope you can help. I started work in a new company yesterday (hurray) > and the office uses Eclipse. I miss netbeans!! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Hopefully someone will know of one and i wont be forced to used > UltraEdit32 :P Don't worry - Java web app plugins do exist.
If you use Eclipse 3.3, then you can choose to download a J2EE version that comes with all the necesarry plugins.
Arne
abstract - 16 Sep 2007 02:11 GMT Ow man, just go to software updates in the eclipse and search for web tools or WTP.
ps: Discussion about eclipse versus netbeans, is really boring...
On Sep 11, 11:32 am, "gwoodho...@gmail.com" <gwoodho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Graeme Woodhouse
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