Java Forum / General / August 2007
IDE Suggestions
gregarican - 02 Aug 2007 13:04 GMT I am looking to get more into Java development, but would like some suggestions as to the most suitable IDE. I know this is a subjective question, but here's where I am coming from. I have worked in Ruby and C# extensively. The point being:
1) Ruby was easy (fun dare I say?) to work in syntactically, but lacked a solid IDE for GUI development. I have seen a few offerings, but they lacked the drag and drop widget feature to easily create GUI apps.
2) C# development is pretty straightforward using Visual Studio 2005. GUI apps can be created quickly and efficiently. But it lacks the cross platform ability I am looking for now. I have looked into MonoDevelop, but getting this working on Mac OS X and Linux platforms isn't a no-brainer.
So far for a Java IDE I have looked at Eclipse with the WindowBuilder plug-in from Instantiations. It looks pretty good, although I'm not sure about FOSS licensing. Right now I have a 14-day time bombed trial install. What about Netbeans and some of the others out there? Preferably I would like to try out a FOSS solution. Emphasis on quick drag and drop GUI features.
Any suggestions? Keep it clean :-)
Thomas Kellerer - 02 Aug 2007 13:08 GMT > Preferably I would like to try out a FOSS solution. Emphasis on quick > drag and drop GUI features. Then I would definitely look at NetBeans. The GUI editor is really nice and is even better with the upcoming 6.0 release.
Thomas
amitatgroups@gmail.com - 02 Aug 2007 13:16 GMT > > Preferably I would like to try out a FOSS solution. Emphasis on quick > > drag and drop GUI features. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thomas yes I m with Thomas really netbeans is good www.netbeans.org
mich - 02 Aug 2007 13:22 GMT I moved over from jBuilder to Netbeans and I found it quite easy to pick up.
gregarican - 02 Aug 2007 15:11 GMT > I moved over from jBuilder to Netbeans and I found it quite easy to pick up. Thanks for y'all's insight. I downloaded Netbeans 5.5.1 and am scoping it out now. So far it looks very good! Thanks again!
mich - 02 Aug 2007 15:42 GMT >> I moved over from jBuilder to Netbeans and I found it quite easy to pick >> up. > > Thanks for y'all's insight. I downloaded Netbeans 5.5.1 and am scoping > it out now. So far it looks very good! Thanks again! I tried Eclipse, but never figured it out. Seems to me that since Eclipse is supposed to be a platform for everything it's not really that good at anything, being much too generic.
Daniel Pitts - 02 Aug 2007 15:55 GMT > I am looking to get more into Java development, but would like some > suggestions as to the most suitable IDE. I know this is a subjective [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Any suggestions? Keep it clean :-) I actually use JetBrains' IntelliJ IDEA. It has *great* support for refactoring, which is very important to my development style. Most of my work is either webapps, or if it is a GUI, its simple enough that I can hand code the Swing components, so I'm not sure how good/bad/existent the GUI builder in IDEA is.
>From what I've heard, Eclipse is pretty decent too, but I don't have much to base that on.
Twisted - 02 Aug 2007 16:28 GMT > > I am looking to get more into Java development, but would like some > > suggestions as to the most suitable IDE. I know this is a subjective [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > I actually use JetBrains' IntelliJ IDEA. WARNING to OP: IntelliJ IDEA is not free to download and use arbitrarily unlike Netbeans and Eclipse. Daniel Pitts neglected to mention this, perhaps intentionally, but it is a significant entry in the "minus" column nonetheless, especially if you are of limited means as seems likely given you're a student. Beware of attempts to stick a hand in your pocket and take hundreds in return for something that has a marginal cost somewhere in the vicinity of zero! Beware of ads for commercial products that have free alternatives masquerading as advice!
Daniel Pitts - 02 Aug 2007 21:50 GMT > > > I am looking to get more into Java development, but would like some > > > suggestions as to the most suitable IDE. I know this is a subjective [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > a marginal cost somewhere in the vicinity of zero! Beware of ads for > commercial products that have free alternatives masquerading as advice! Excuse me. I did forget to mention the cost, since it doesn't affect me directly. The company I work for dealt the the license.
I find your response somewhat offensive. You, who has been known to take simple comments as personal affronts, should know how to phrase your comments in a way that isn't a personal attack. I have absolutely no vested interest in JetBrains. I was simply expressing my personal opinion about a product that I use nearly every day.
mich - 02 Aug 2007 22:21 GMT >> > > I am looking to get more into Java development, but would like some >> > > suggestions as to the most suitable IDE. I know this is a subjective [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > absolutely no vested interest in JetBrains. I was simply expressing > my personal opinion about a product that I use nearly every day. The guy is simply a jerk and I KF'ed him as should everybody else.
gregarican - 03 Aug 2007 00:53 GMT > > > > I am looking to get more into Java development, but would like some > > > > suggestions as to the most suitable IDE. I know this is a subjective [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > - Show quoted text - No doubt. It's not like you work for them. What's up with that? It's not like your last name is JetBrains :-) Seriously though, I appreciate the feedback. Right now I'm trying out Eclipse and Netbeans back and forth to see which one will fit the way I work the best. That and looking forward to getting my Sams book on Java to get my feet under me.
Lew - 03 Aug 2007 01:30 GMT > No doubt. It's not like you work for them. What's up with that? It's > not like your last name is JetBrains :-) Seriously though, I > appreciate the feedback. Right now I'm trying out Eclipse and Netbeans > back and forth to see which one will fit the way I work the best. That > and looking forward to getting my Sams book on Java to get my feet > under me. Wisdom indicates to have an Ant-based command-line build for Java and Java-based projects. Character development arises from familiarity with the process. Integrating Ant with a versioned source repository is /de rigueur/.
Both NetBeans and Eclipse adore Ant and version control. Both also risk imposition of IDE-dependent artifacts in your code library. Nice if you want that, but annoying if it's a surprise. Having an automated build-and-test protocol using Ant off CVS or Subversion is the way to go.
As a developer it behooves one to play with Ant-based builds outside of any IDE in order to grok the process. Reading the IDE-generated build.xml and related files is also quite the educational journey.
 Signature Lew
Twisted - 03 Aug 2007 12:45 GMT > > > > > I am looking to get more into Java development, but would like some > > > > > suggestions as to the most suitable IDE. I know this is a subjective [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > and looking forward to getting my Sams book on Java to get my feet > under me. Nothing I wrote was intended to make a definitive claim that anyone here was definitely a corporate shill, or in any way dishonest; if it was misread that way I apologize for that. However it is important that newcomers here be somewhat skeptical of suggestions. Anyone suggesting a particular product or service *might* be a corporate shill or otherwise have an ulterior motive. It is likely that some here *are*, even if we have no clue who in particular might be. Any suggestion that happens to involve spending a substantial chunk of change needs to be viewed with suspicion, as it may be to the suggester's financial benefit at your expense if you follow such a suggestion. It could be perfectly honest; then again it might turn out not to be. The fact that someone makes money if the suggestion is followed creates an automatic taint of suspicion. Recommendations for stuff you can freely use on the other hand seem unlikely to benefit anyone at your expense and so can probably be viewed as honest; there's no danger it's a salesman in disguise about to rip you off.
Obviously, the key thing to do is to a) not assume that things people suggest are free, even if they don't warn you otherwise (lack of such a warning is however reason for suspicion, though proof of nothing); b) see if there are free alternatives; and c) see if there's any broad consensus that the unfree thing suggested is superior. In the case of IDEs there's no such consensus, and the top two popular ones appear to be NetBeans and Eclipse, both free. Tutorials is another area to be wary about. N00bs looking for introductory materials often get two or three responses trying to sell books to them before anyone deigns to mention the excellent and freely readable Java tutorial maintained by Sun themselves on their own Web site. There's no point blowing hard- earned money on thick bundles of dead tree unless you feel the need for further basic help beyond what Sun's tutorial provides, and even then, asking specific questions of this newsgroup where there are gaps in (your understanding of) the tutorial is probably a better bet -- somewhat slower but much less expensive given you already have net access and already posted here once requesting pointers to introductory materials.
As for those providing helpful responses, I would recommend that you disclose up-front if something you suggest is unfree, and that if the thread has no reference to the applicable freebies yet you include them and explain why your suggestion might be better and under what circumstances; this will indicate to others that you are acting in good faith, and help ensure that nobody gets ripped off. I see no logical objection to those suggestions unless your intent was in fact to rip someone off; only then is there a logical reason why you would not want them alerted to the existence of free alternatives to your suggestion.
Of course, when a suggested product's price tag is clearly massively inflated compared to its marginal cost there is additional cause for suspicion of an attempted ripoff. Where is the rest of the money (most of it) going to go? To line someone's pockets as pure profit, no doubt. Using such a thing instead of Eclipse is at best like buying Perrier water instead of using tapwater (the former may actually be superior in some respect, but the latter is adequate and a darn sight cheaper) and at worst like buying Dasani (bottled tap water at inflated prices).
To recap: * Newbies looking for common Java aids are suggested to always check into Eclipse, NetBeans, and Sun's Java tutorial and other documentation before resorting to paying for any software or books. * People answering questions are advised to disclose up front in their own posting if something they are recommending costs money or has other strings attached. * People answering questions are advised to disclose up front any affiliation they may have with the purveyors of same. * People answering questions are advised to suggest the appropriate freebies in their post if they aren't already suggested elsewhere in the thread. * People answering questions and suggesting something unfree are advised to explain, honestly, what (if any) advantages their suggestion has over said freebies and under what circumstances.
This should serve dual purposes: * Newbies don't get incomplete information and then perhaps spend hard- earned money they could have saved. Newbies make their spending decisions with full knowledge of alternatives. * The disclosure suggestions for those suggesting unfree things will also help reduce any cause for suspicion of their motives. People shilling for a company probably won't read any of these suggestions, or give a hoot if they do read them, so it will also be easier to spot any shills that might be present when the non-shills by and large follow such suggestions.
A parting note: some people seem to just suggest unfree things off the cuff not with any ulterior motive but because they use it at work and didn't pay, or they have no real problems themselves with making off- the-cuff purchases in the three-figure range because they make six figures a year, or whatever. They do wise to keep in mind that most people coming here with these types of questions will be students and therefore of starkly limited means, and suggestions that they should spend those kinds of sums will not be particularly welcome. In the worst case, a poor student may get the impression that there's no viable alternative and, unable to afford the sum, give up on Java entirely as "too expensive to develop in"! This would clearly be a travesty. In the best case they get the impression that advice is sometimes unreliable or suspect, or maybe even given with the primary purpose of drumming up business for various corporations rather than the primary purpose of helping, even in the cases where that isn't true.
It is also the case that many of the individuals asking for such help will not be Americans, and may not be Westerners at all in many cases. As such they may not have convenient access to any payment methods accepted by any of the corporations selling any of the unfree products. They may have no local bookstores selling any of the books you suggest and no easy way to get them shipped; Amazon may not accept any payment method they can use. Nor might a software vendor have a local presence where they are or accept online purchase methods they can use (if they accept online purchases at all). Most American businesses don't do COD, especially with international shipping; they may accept cheques drawn on American banks and American money orders that are nontrivial to get as close by as Canada let alone in Europe or even Asia; they usually accept credit cards but the vast majority of people picked at random from the planetary population don't have one. Supposing they had access to a payment method they'd likely have to jump through many extra hoops to use it from outside the USA; currency conversion and exchange rates would be an issue, at minimum. And if they happen to be in North Korea they're completely out of luck. By contrast if they have broadband net access, a computer, and nothing else they can use Sun's tutorial and download Eclipse and/or NetBeans, barring Great Firewall type problems.
So suggesting an unfree product or service of an American company also makes your suggestion worthless to, at a guess, roughly 18/19* of the population of the planet. Oops; some help you turned out to be. :)
* Using the approximations of US population 1/3 billion (maybe a touch low), world population 6 and a third (definitely lowball, but offsets the former), and the very liberal assumption that everyone inside the US can afford the price asked. In actuality, it's probably an option worth considering to maybe 1/50 of the world population or less, while the freebies are an option for as many as 1/3, the current estimate for worldwide internet access penetration by population.
Joe Attardi - 03 Aug 2007 05:37 GMT > WARNING to OP: IntelliJ IDEA is not free to download and use > arbitrarily unlike Netbeans and Eclipse. Daniel Pitts neglected to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a marginal cost somewhere in the vicinity of zero! Beware of ads for > commercial products that have free alternatives masquerading as advice! WARNING TO OP: Twisted likes to stir up trouble.
Not all software products have free alternatives that are comparable in quality. Don't get me wrong; in this case I agree with Twisted. I've used IntelliJ and like it very much, but the bottom line is that Eclipse is free and is just as full-featured, if not more.
Other free software categories...not so much. I recently tried to switch from Microsoft Money 2007 to GnuCash. GnuCash on Windows is pretty good but lacked important features out of the box - integration with my banks' online systems, automatic stock price updates, etc.
Sometimes you do get what you pay for.
But, as to not confuse the OP: Eclipse is my recommendation. I've used it every day for years and has yet to do me wrong.
 Signature Joe Attardi jattardi@gmail.com
Arne Vajhøj - 02 Aug 2007 17:02 GMT > So far for a Java IDE I have looked at Eclipse with the WindowBuilder > plug-in from Instantiations. It looks pretty good, although I'm not > sure about FOSS licensing. Right now I have a 14-day time bombed trial > install. Eclipse is open source.
You can download it freely and use it as long as you want.
You probably have gotten one of the commercial packages built on top of Eclipse.
Get it from www.eclipse.org !
Arne
gregarican - 02 Aug 2007 18:58 GMT On Aug 2, 12:02 pm, Arne Vajh?j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> > So far for a Java IDE I have looked at Eclipse with the WindowBuilder > > plug-in from Instantiations. It looks pretty good, although I'm not [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Arne I got the main Eclipse install as a free download. The WindowBuilder plug-in was indeed something that costs to register once the trial period expires. Kind of a side (off) topic, but I got the plug-in from a site called http://www.eclipsepluginscentral.com. It in turn linked to the Instantiations website that sells WindowBuilder. The EclipsePlugInCentral site tried to infect me with the Windows ANI animated cursor exploit. I was patched and have updated AV software so it didn't do anything (thank God). Does anyone know if this site is reputable or not? Perhaps they just got 'sploited by a third party and aren't aware of it...
gregarican - 02 Aug 2007 19:03 GMT > On Aug 2, 12:02 pm, Arne Vajh?j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Oops. I meant http://www.eclipseplugincentral.com (minus the plural 's'). Beware though if you're using a unpatched Windows PC!
Arne Vajhøj - 02 Aug 2007 19:10 GMT >>> So far for a Java IDE I have looked at Eclipse with the WindowBuilder >>> plug-in from Instantiations. It looks pretty good, although I'm not [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > reputable or not? Perhaps they just got 'sploited by a third party and > aren't aware of it... Eclipse also has a free GUI Builder plugin called VE. Why not try that ?
Arne
Twisted - 02 Aug 2007 21:53 GMT > On Aug 2, 12:02 pm, Arne Vajh?j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > reputable or not? Perhaps they just got 'sploited by a third party and > aren't aware of it... Well, let's see. Instead of pointing you to free, more-valuable-to-you stuff they pointed you to crippled expensive less-valuable-to-you stuff and tried to virus your PC. Maybe not deliberately, but their security is obviously shoddy even if their ethics are clean. This site is at best of poor quality, and at worst actively malicious and self- serving, attempting to extort money from you at every turn whether via spyware and other surreptitious means or just by straightforward if crass methods like gratuitously crippled software.
I'd recommend looking elsewhere. Does the main Eclipse site not provide links to plugins, or to a reputable plugin-catalogue site? (A reputable one should run a tight ship so nothing, exploit or intentional, tries to hack your browser, and should clearly differentiate and list as separate categories free software versus software with strings attached.)
John mitre - 03 Aug 2007 17:07 GMT Gentlemen,
>> So far for a Java IDE I have looked at Eclipse with the WindowBuilder >> plug-in from Instantiations. It looks pretty good, although I'm not [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Arne http://www.easyeclipse.org/site/home/ (Based on Eclipse 3.3).
Another option is using the Eclipse from www.eclipse.org Version 3.3 is already out and also provides "Java" ready version (with JDT). It's a free, libre software and the crowds behind eclipse (the users, devels) is HUGE + a great community (http://www.eclipse.org/community/)
So, everyone jump in! ;)
- THIS IS NOT ECLIPSE ADVERTISEMENT -
Cheers
David Segall - 02 Aug 2007 18:36 GMT >I am looking to get more into Java development, but would like some >suggestions as to the most suitable IDE. I know this is a subjective [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Any suggestions? Keep it clean :-) I have what I believe to be a complete list of "full featured" Java IDEs at <http://ide.profectus.com.au> but given your emphasis on GUI development and preference for FOSS I would agree with the NetBeans recommendations. As a bonus, NetBeans 6.0 (in pre-release) supports Ruby development.
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