Java Forum / General / August 2007
Java and avoiding software piracy?
adamorn@gmail.com - 11 Jul 2007 01:27 GMT Hi,
Im *hoping* to release an application that I developed in Java, and I want to release a free version as well as a pay version.
Clearly I want to be able to avoid people cracking it, or creating key generators... Although i know that it is unlikely to actually stop them entirely.. I want to do as much as I can to ensure that IF they want to crack/keygen it, that it will be as difficult as possible.
Please let me know what your thoughts are as to how to achieve this. Strategies? Resources?
Please send them my way!
Thanks!
Ashoka! - 11 Jul 2007 02:12 GMT On Jul 10, 8:27 pm, adam...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Thanks! Depends on how may people are going to be using the paid version you can make a small application that collects several system properties like size of hard disk etc and use these as a seeds for a random number generator. The random number will be sent to your server to get a corresponding key. You will then mark that key as used and not allow future registration on it. On the down side every time the users change system configuration they will require a new key. You can manage this by asking them to enter private info like credit card number (you already have this because you charged them the first time).
Its not foolproof and needs some work on the concept but you get the picture.
regards Usman Ismail
~kurt - 11 Jul 2007 05:40 GMT > Depends on how may people are going to be using the paid version you > can make a small application that collects several system properties > like size of hard disk etc and use these as a seeds for a random > number generator. The random number will be sent to your server to get > a corresponding key. You will then mark that key as used and not allow > future registration on it. On the down side every time the users Lots of computers are not connected to the Internet - just internal networks. One needs to take this into consideration.
- Kurt
Andrew Thompson - 11 Jul 2007 03:43 GMT ...
>Im *hoping* to release an application that I developed in Java, and I >want to release a free version as well as a pay version. ...
>Please let me know what your thoughts are as to how to achieve this. Charge for support, and drop that other nonsense of keys.
 Signature Andrew Thompson http://www.athompson.info/andrew/
adamorn@gmail.com - 11 Jul 2007 14:44 GMT > adam...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Message posted via JavaKB.comhttp://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/java-general/200707/1 I think that charging for support will earn me very little $$$... as it is a little application. But thanks for the interesting thought
Roedy Green - 11 Jul 2007 05:55 GMT >Im *hoping* to release an application that I developed in Java, and I >want to release a free version as well as a pay version. see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/obfuscator.html -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com
Hunter Gratzner - 11 Jul 2007 07:35 GMT On Jul 11, 2:27 am, adam...@gmail.com wrote:
> Clearly I want to be able to avoid people cracking it, You can't. End of discussion.
> Please let me know what your thoughts are as to how to achieve this. > Strategies? You are wasting your time.
Roedy Green - 11 Jul 2007 07:50 GMT On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:35:45 -0700, Hunter Gratzner <a24900@googlemail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>> Clearly I want to be able to avoid people cracking it, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >You are wasting your time. You don't have to make it impossible. You merely have to make it more expensive and frustrating than writing the code from scratch. If you can insist on an Internet connection, then new possibilities open up to drive pirates insane. There is also the option of native compilation of highly optimised (and hence naturally obfuscated) code.
See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/obfuscator.html
-- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com
Laie Techie - 11 Jul 2007 09:23 GMT On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:27:30 +0000, adamorn wrote:
> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Thanks! There are several free decompilers so it is next to impossible to do what you're asking.
Jet Brains (the makers of IDEA) store a bunch of information: * Client Name (hashed) * Client Number * Expiration Date * Expiration Version * Key
All that stuff is combined together in some undisclosed binary format. None of their methods returns a simple boolean or Date object. The goal is to use nondescript method names in nondescript classes. Use of reflection also makes it harder to crack.
-- Laie Techie
Lew - 11 Jul 2007 14:30 GMT > Use of reflection also makes it harder to crack. and maintain.
Don't use such a thing heavily throughout your code because you think it will protect you from hackers. Who would then protect you from yourself?
For a small authorization module reflection techniques can be useful. Just don't go replacing viable algorithms with it wholesale in a vain attempt to secure your app.
 Signature Lew
adamorn@gmail.com - 11 Jul 2007 14:43 GMT Ive read all the posts, and have to admit requiring an internet connection isnt bad, seeing how the user has to download the application to their computer to begin wih. But still, easily hackable with decompiled code. But the reality is that some people will pay for it and others will find a way to hack it.
I think I just want to put a relatively thin layer of security behind it, but I do admit that if it is too easy to hack that it will welcome all types of hackers, and casual users... So I want to make it at least somewhat challenging for them. In addition, my other concern is that my server will go down (the one I pay some godaddy for), and then the user will try to open their application and have it fail to reach the server for license verification, making my paid users angry.
On the same thread, if I dont have them hit the server, or rather on server verification I allow them entry to the application, then a firewall that blocks the connection will simply give them access to the full app.
As for a key only, perhaps it is a good way to go. But there are just infinite key generators out there, so clearly anybody who wants to will be able to find a hack, unless I release fake hacks.
Thanks for the feedback. While I think it is a bit of a lost cause, I will do something based on the feedback here and post my final decisions on the matter for any future reader of this thread.
Thanks
~kurt - 11 Jul 2007 15:19 GMT > Ive read all the posts, and have to admit requiring an internet > connection isnt bad, seeing how the user has to download the > application to their computer to begin wih. But still, easily What typically happens is the application is downloaded, burnt to a CD or DVD (maybe even copied to a floppy if it is small enough), virus scanned according to the company policy, and then installed on the internal network. If you go this route, then you must have some way for the user to call in to get their authorization code. We ran into this with JBuilder - they only had email support listed, and it took them over a week to get back to us. I'll never buy one of their products again.
- Kurt
RedGrittyBrick - 11 Jul 2007 15:42 GMT > my ... concern is > that my server will go down (the one I pay some godaddy for), and then > the user will try to open their application and have it fail to reach > the server for license verification, making my paid users angry. I may be wrong but I thought that what was being suggested was accessing an Internet server for initial *registration* after installation, not for ongoing *verification* on each invocation of the program.
At registration you would retrieve and store a token that the application would then check at startup - to see if the stored token matches the gathered hardware fingerprint.
E.g. the token could be the fingerprint and expiry date signed using your private RSA key. The app would hold your RSA public key and use it to verify the signature of the fingerprint. Of course a miscreant could probably hack the bytecode to skip the verification check.
An alternative is to make your application a web-hosted application like "Google Docs & spreadsheets".
Bent C Dalager - 11 Jul 2007 10:35 GMT >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >them entirely.. I want to do as much as I can to ensure that IF they >want to crack/keygen it, that it will be as difficult as possible. Now, this depends a lot on the nature of your application and your target market, but in the general case chances are that in doing this you will be destroying whatever market you otherwise might have had. If you're Microsoft, and therefore ubiqutous, or AutoCAD(*), and therefore indispensable, you can get away with the unavoidable inconvenience a copyright protection system causes your users.
In pretty much all other cases, however, your main problem is probably in creating a user base that desires your product and the best way to do this is to make it as easy as possible to use your software - whether it's paid for or not. Adding registration keys, activation schemes, etc., isn't doing this for you.
* - Or whatever it is they are using these days.
Cheers Bent D
 Signature Bent Dalager - bcd@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd powered by emacs
Twisted - 11 Jul 2007 22:27 GMT Don't waste your time and effort trying to lock up information. It will always be either easily copied or unusable, one or the other.
Instead, make money off your ancillary expertise in the software, its internals, and the problem domain. Your talents in that area are scarce and rivalrous, so they make sense as private or metered goods. Charge for customization of someone's install of the software, or for support beyond basic bug-fixes and how-tos. Open a consultancy, with the software as testament to your competence in the field. Whatever.
Philipp Leitner - 12 Jul 2007 12:33 GMT > Instead, make money off your ancillary expertise in the software, its > internals, and the problem domain. Your talents in that area are > scarce and rivalrous, so they make sense as private or metered goods. > Charge for customization of someone's install of the software, or for > support beyond basic bug-fixes and how-tos. Open a consultancy, with > the software as testament to your competence in the field. Whatever. This is only a valid business model under certain circumstances: - the tool under discussion has to be something "enterprisey", since only at least medium-sized companies pay for customized software, support or consultants. If you wrote e.g. a RSS reader or anything else that definitely targets the single end user you're out of luck. - the tool has to be obscure / complex / buggy / ... enough so that consultancy is even necessary. Again: if you have a well-written little RSS reader it is unlikely that enough questions arise that a paid support is even necessary. - you as the author have to be able and willing to dedicate a lot of the time following into consulting and/or maintaining the software. If you already have a day job you're unlikely to have enough spare time that you can spend to follow this business model. Customization takes time. So does maintaining and supporting an application.
Conclusion: I am definitely a friend of OSS, but the idea that seems to go around that an OSS business model is the one and only way to earn some money with software is just bogus.
And for the OP: I wouldn't care too much about crackers and key generators. Unless your software /really/ catches on the problems arising from these guys are marginal.
/philipp
Twisted - 13 Jul 2007 02:32 GMT > - the tool under discussion has to be something "enterprisey", since > only at least medium-sized companies pay for customized software, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > little RSS reader it is unlikely that enough questions arise that a > paid support is even necessary. If it's something like a little RSS reader, there's no money to be made off it anyway, certainly not in a competitive market if you play fair. If there's no market for the ancillary expertise due to anyone and his brother being able to do it, there's no market for the software itself for the same reason. Someone will make something compatible and sell it cheaper. Someone else will do it and make it FOSS. You won't be able to compete on price OR quality in this case. The reason to write such software is when it directly benefits your own productivity through your own in-house use, and then there's no reason to be stingy and not open-source it since you derive the benefits of its direct use anyway, and releasing it encourages quid pro quo (you may get nice free tools and not have to write them; you might get bug fixes or suggestions from other users of such stuff savvy enough to modify the code).
> - you as the author have to be able and willing to dedicate a lot of > the time following into consulting and/or maintaining the software. If > you already have a day job you're unlikely to have enough spare time > that you can spend to follow this business model. Customization takes > time. So does maintaining and supporting an application. If you already have a day job you already have a steady paycheque and no need to charge for the software.
> Conclusion: I am definitely a friend of OSS, but the idea that seems > to go around that an OSS business model is the one and only way to > earn some money with software is just bogus. The only ways to earn money with software that depend on charging for access to the software itself are by their nature coercive and extortionate. They are also doomed in the long term because your competitors can always undercut you on price without any loss in quality. Microsoft is learning this lesson right now. They're reaching for any legal bludgeon they can invent (software patents for example, or a "trusted computing" mandate) to kill open source competitors by criminalizing them, all because they cannot compete in a fair and open market. Only aggressive marketing and questionable business practises enabled them to become rich in the first place, that and a lack of access to alternatives for most consumers for a long time before widespread access to broadband developed in the industrialized parts of the world.
> And for the OP: I wouldn't care too much about crackers and key > generators. Unless your software /really/ catches on the problems > arising from these guys are marginal. Anybody using such wasn't ever going to pay for the software anyway. Actually, scratch that -- some of those using such methods would never pay no matter what. Making it harder might force them to use a competitor's software but it won't get your hand into their pockets successfully. On the other hand, some of those who crack it might later pay, if they derive benefit from the software and decide it's worth subsidizing its further development and maintenance. More than those who just play with your crippled free version, who will just be annoyed by random and arbitrary restrictions and have a generally terrible user experience that will put them off ever sending you a dime.
Why not make the full version free, but offer a registration certificate or something for a certain amount of money? It may turn on frivolous features of the software or just a personalized greeting or something, or let you get early access to bugfix-test beta versions or something. Plenty will just use the software and never send you a dime, but they'd likely never have sent you a dime no matter what you did. Others may gladly pay if they know it will finance further development of the software, including some that never would have if subjected to any sort of coercion or made to feel obligated to pay.
You could probably get away with giving the fully-functional version for free and selling a snazzy "pro skin" even. This works for the Limewire folks. (They also sell T-shirts. The "pro" version isn't actually any faster than the free one, despite what they claim; it just tends to make more redundant connections to hubs to make it slightly more stable in connectivity perhaps.)
Oh there are lots of creative ways to make money without ticking off your prospective customers, denying the use of your software to the poor, or using threats, extortion, gratuitous cripplage, or any copy protection crap that just adds bugs and subtracts features. Nobody wants to pay for added bugs and fewer features! Outmoded "copyright" business models just use the increasingly unenforceable copyright laws as a crutch to lean on in a futile attempt to avoid the obligation to innovate. It's red queen syndrome though -- you have to run faster just to stay in the same place. If by some means (becoming a complete fascist police state?) the US began to really successfully enforce copyrights, it would just cause the US to rapidly fall behind other countries, particularly China, which looks set to topple it and take on the role of world superpower in the next few years *anyway*. If they don't, copyright-reliant businesses within the US are quickly outcompeted by innovative firms with other business models. It's the whole protectionism-vs.-free-trade thing again, only with information flow and services instead of physical trade goods. History repeating itself in the usual manner when someone failed to learn from it. Free trade won the last few rounds. Anyone want to bet against the proven champ this game?
Oliver Wong - 13 Jul 2007 17:16 GMT > The reason to write such software is when it directly benefits your > own productivity through your own in-house use, and then there's no [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > might get bug fixes or suggestions from other users of such stuff > savvy enough to modify the code). Feel free to accept them if they arrive, but don't *expect* bug fixes or suggestions. Only the top 1% or so of open source project ever receive outside help.
>> - you as the author have to be able and willing to dedicate a lot of >> the time following into consulting and/or maintaining the software. If [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If you already have a day job you already have a steady paycheque and > no need to charge for the software. That's not necessarily true. Your day job might not be paying enough, and yet it's the best you can get, and so you need to supplement it with a second or third job. If programming software is a part of your skillset, then there's no reason not to consider writing software for profit as one of those second or third jobs.
>> Conclusion: I am definitely a friend of OSS, but the idea that seems >> to go around that an OSS business model is the one and only way to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > competitors can always undercut you on price without any loss in > quality. Depends on your definition of "coercive and extortionate", I suppose. Take the computer game industry, for example. Most games are one-shot deals. You won't have enterprises buying support contracts. You won't have users paying for support. You won't even have users expecting continuous updates over the next few years of the product. There are some exceptions to this (Blizzard, for example, semi-regularly releases updates to their game Diablo), but most games are play-once-and-then-forget-about-forever.
Different games take different approaches to restricting access to the software. Some uses virtual device drivers that take over your CD drive to try to differentiate between original CDs and copied ones; others have you enter a serial number which is then verified online; yet others just release the game without any software copyprotection at all, relying on the "honesty" of the Internet (or more cynically, on the guilt that might be generated in pirates).
The latter of these, I would certainly not consider to be coercive nor extortionate.
> Microsoft is learning this lesson right now. They're reaching > for any legal bludgeon they can invent (software patents for example, > or a "trusted computing" mandate) to kill open source competitors by > criminalizing them, all because they cannot compete in a fair and open > market. It was recently fashionable to demonize Microsoft, such that a lot of accusations thrown their way was unfair. I think that trend has died a little bit, but I still see the occasional blogs with one entry saying "Vista sucks" and followed by another entry saying "I've never tried Vista and I never will".
First of all, anthropophormizing corporations is dangerous, because it then becomes extremely tempting to assign emotions to them (e.g. fear, jealousy, envy, anger, etc.) and then to try to make predictions about their future behaviour based on what emotions they are supposedly experiencing.
I think a much more accurate model is to think of corporations as a perfectly rational utilitarian whose sole metric is profit. There's no good vs evil, moral vs immoral issues to enter into the consideration of a coporation's "mind". It's solely about what action can maximize profits.
Keeping that in mind makes it much easier to understand Microsoft's (or any corporation's) actions. They break the law when the profit they gain from doing so outweighs the penalties they'd pay. They embrace Open Source when it's profitable to do so (Windows XP has some BSD licensed code in it, for example), and they try to stiffle competitors of all form (open source or otherwise) *when it is profitable to do so*. Honestly, I don't think Microsoft is very concerned about losing the desktop market to Linux, so they aren't spending much resource in fighting it there (the reason being the expenses paid in "fighting" Linux will be greater than profits from the marketshare regained). They might be more concerned with Apache vs IIS, and so you do see a lot of marketing in that area (I see a lot of banners citing IIS is better than Apache, for example).
To address the patents issue in particular, because of the way patent law is set up, if you're a big company, you are essentially forced to horde up on so called "defensive patents". It's a like a cold war, where none of the big corporations sue each other, for fear of getting sued in return. That's the way the rules were set up, and Microsoft (and other corporations, like IBM, Sun, etc.) are just playing the smart strategy according to those rules. Again, it's fallacious to think in terms of "evil corporations hate our freedom, that's why they patent everything" versus "acquiring patents is the action with the highest utility at this point".
> Only aggressive marketing and questionable business practises > enabled them to become rich in the first place, that and a lack of > access to alternatives for most consumers for a long time before > widespread access to broadband developed in the industrialized parts > of the world. Drop the keyword "only" and I'll be in agreement with you.
>> And for the OP: I wouldn't care too much about crackers and key >> generators. Unless your software /really/ catches on the problems [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > terrible user experience that will put them off ever sending you a > dime. On the other hand, I know some people who had pirated Windows XP, but are going to pay for Windows Vista simply because Vista is too much of a pain to pirate. It's like Roedy said (and it echos a dogma in the security industry as a whole): Perfect security is impossible. The goal isn't to attain perfect security. The goal is to make it such that the least painful solution is to just go ahead and pay for the software so that this will be what all rational people (who always choose the least painful/most pleasurable of all options) end up doing.
[snip some creative ideas for making money; I've no comments or arguments against that]
- Oliver
Twisted - 14 Jul 2007 05:28 GMT > That's not necessarily true. Your day job might not be paying enough, > and yet it's the best you can get, and so you need to supplement it with a > second or third job. If programming software is a part of your skillset, > then there's no reason not to consider writing software for profit as one > of those second or third jobs. Hire out your programming expertise then. There is always work for people with a talent for coding.
> Depends on your definition of "coercive and extortionate", I suppose. My definition isn't unreasonable. It includes things like one party interfering with a consensual transaction between a second party and a third party, especially if there's a financial motive such as preventing competition. (In this instance, the second party is letting the third party examine an object the second party (legitimately) possesses, and construct a duplicate of that object with their own raw materials and time and on their own dime.)
> Take > the computer game industry, for example. Most games are one-shot deals. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (Blizzard, for example, semi-regularly releases updates to their game > Diablo), but most games are play-once-and-then-forget-about-forever. Well I can see a few options here that don't involve coercive activities and can still make you money. * Make it a multiplayer game. Give the game away. Open a pay service for online play; playing through your service requires access to your servers and that in turn costs you bandwidth and electricity and the like; you can certainly meter this access and make money this way. Of course, if third parties can't create compatible servers then you are doing something anticompetitive and sneaky! * Make a game for your own enjoyment. Your own future enjoyment of the game is the "payment". * Say you have a great game idea but need financing to create the game. If enough money is pledged you'll make the game and give it away. If not enough is pledged by a certain date you'll return the money already received and won't make the game. This amounts to being paid up front to write the code, so you don't lose money if it's easily copied once it's released. * Make arcade machines that are coin-operated, and to which only you have the key to the coin-box. If the game's not otherwise available it's admittedly a bit morally dodgy, but even if it is you'll make money from machines in places where people have to sit around and wait for a particular time or a number to come up, like airports and movie theatre lobbies and suchlike. People often forget to bring their Nintendo DS or a book or something ... and then you've got some of their pocket change. * Demo it to rich people until you sell one copy for a bazillion bucks. Retire. Don't care if the rich guy then spreads copies around. Some people have piles of money and nothing better to do with it than be the first ever to do/have something. * Give the game away. If it's any good, and especially if the source code is publicly visible, you might get job offers. Even if game companies no longer made any money selling copies of games this wouldn't change, since someone might want a game made with particular features and not have the skills themselves but have the money to hire someone to make it for them; and since your proven skills with Java or whatever are likely of broader use than just game making. * Use the game as a loss leader to sell something else. A special case of this is to sell access to one online service for multiplayer gaming with this game; the game creates the whole market for such online services, and you start one of them. As the game's maker you may be able to make a better one more cheaply than a competitor could without a lot of study of your game's code. More generally, the game might become popular and you could sell related T-shirts, stuffed game- character animals or game-character action figures, and other such physical goods. The game could also contain paid product placements -- e.g. you could make a GTA clone and get Coke and Pepsi to bid for which one's logo gets on a big billboard and all the vending machines in the game world or something. * There's the outright adware/spyware route too, but that's evil, not to mention stupid since people will just strip that crap out and spread the "cleaned" version around, and it will outcompete your original. * Make copies and sell them! If you don't do anything coercive, obviously sooner or later other people will make copies and sell them, and more will give copies away. Some will still prefer to buy from the trusted original source, or to subsidize the possibility of addons or new games from a proven good game-maker. Red Hat sells copies of Linux on CD for $60 a pop, and makes money at it, even though anyone else can do the same, one company started selling copies of Red Hat's distro for $30 a pop, and lots of places have free downloads of Fedora Core. Admittedly not a game, but it still proves you can make money without restricting others from making copies and giving them away or selling them.
> Different games take different approaches to restricting access to the > software. I hate all gratuitous restrictions on access. If I can pay the marginal cost of reproduction of something I see no reason I should not be permitted to have one if I want it, and a grave moral wrong in withholding access to something for someone who can pay its marginal cost. Worse, this type of thing involves by its very nature intrusions and breaches of privacy, because party 1 is trying to impede certain consensial transactions between parties 2 and 3, not merely to set the terms of transactions between party 1 (themselves) and other parties. The only way to do this effectively is to spy on parties 2 and 3 and then intrude on them when they try to conduct a transaction you don't like. If done in person, that's called eavesdropping, break-and-enter, and assault where I come from.
If you really want to control access, you should not furnish copies at all. Put your game on a server and charge for access to it. Secure the server against being hacked. Without hacking, all someone can do is play the game through the interface. Give away a thin client (most likely a browser applet) which isn't of any use without what's on the server. Just don't expect many users unless the game is very, very good or membership is cheap and one fixed-sized payment buys you a lifetime of access.
> Some uses virtual device drivers that take over your CD drive to > try to differentiate between original CDs and copied ones; others have you > enter a serial number which is then verified online Evil and rude. VXDs being installed without the system administrator's explicit knowledge and consent ought to be downright illegal, because they can easily corrupt and crash the OS. Sony recently got into a world of legal hurt over exactly this sort of BS, namely the infamous XCP rootkit CDs. Gratuitously requiring a net connection is nearly as bad, and makes the software stink of spyware. More generally, all such schemes add a bug-prone component whose very INTENT is to make the software gratuitously fail sometimes, and any bug in which is sure to do so. Worse everyone reporting such bugs gets treated with scorn and suspicion. Treating your customers like criminals and their hardware and OS configuration like your personal property is a sure way to lose friends and influence people!
> It was recently fashionable to demonize Microsoft, such that a lot of > accusations thrown their way was unfair. I think that trend has died a > little bit, but I still see the occasional blogs with one entry saying > "Vista sucks" and followed by another entry saying "I've never tried Vista > and I never will". This probably has a lot to do with the fact that Vista sucks, and I've never tried Vista and I never will.
Seriously. It does suck.
> First of all, anthropophormizing corporations is dangerous, because it > then becomes extremely tempting to assign emotions to them (e.g. fear, > jealousy, envy, anger, etc.) and then to try to make predictions about > their future behaviour based on what emotions they are supposedly > experiencing. No, it makes more sense to regard them as emotionless, cold-blooded sociopaths, since that is what all large corporations are. With IQs in the mid-to-upper forties, seeing as they're almost invariably less than the sum of their parts.
Note that I didn't anthropomorphize Microsoft in the original post anyway. I said they couldn't compete and decided to try to use their money to buy laws to effectively outlaw competing with Microsoft. This much is provable fact (they can't compete -> observe Linux server-side market share eating Windows alive; ditto Apache vs. IIS and JSP vs. ASP; law-buying, well, just look, the campaign donations are a matter of public record. No I don't know the URL offhand.)
> I think a much more accurate model is to think of corporations as a > perfectly rational utilitarian whose sole metric is profit. This fails to explain Arthur Andersen and Enron, Worldcom, Sony's brain-dead rootkit shenanigans, and lots of other things. Your "perfectly rational utilitarian" has an IQ inversely proportional to the CEO's annual salary. I doubt they actually are perfectly rational. A rational RIAA would embrace music sharing and monetize music some new way. In practise, companies often show some degree of dominance by the will of one or a few people exhibiting all the usual human foibles. Cartels more so than individual companies; they can be downright schizophrenic and for obvious reasons. Ultimately however they often lust for power and control, and obviously so, regardless of whether this is rational.
They also lack a key element of sanity -- satiability. Corporations are, by and large, insatiable. The more they have the more they want. It's not enough to have 47% of the market, 400 full-time paid employees with full benefits, and enough money coming in to pay the salaries and expenses; they want 57% of the market and to expand to 500 employees and rake in money faster than they spend it, so they can panel the CEO's office in oak and he can cut down from three days working a week to two and spend another day a week playing golf at expensive Augusta.
> There's no good vs evil, moral vs immoral issues to enter into the consideration of a > coporation's "mind". It's solely about what action can maximize profits. Explain irrational decisions like outsourcing all of your support to Brokenenglishstan, with the result being customers abandon you in droves? In fact, the guys that do this stuff are not doing it for the benefit of the company's long term profits. They do it to get short term profits or show decreased expenses in their own department, so they get promoted and more stock options, so they can buy when the next product is shipping and the stock jumps, sell right after, and retire, leaving someone else holding the bag when the customer neglect comes back to bite the company in the butt.
Companies show some tendency to maximize short-term revenues, about three or four months out (roughly one fiscal quarter, which cannot be coincidence), and damn the long term consequences of their behavior. They act like spoiled children that have not learned empathy, more than anything else -- little sociopaths with no more than a vague sense of any time scale beyond a few months, and impulsively grasping for shiny baubles and smacking at anything they don't like.
> (I see a lot of banners citing IIS is better than Apache, for example). I don't. Must be Firefox's adblock. You really should get that plugin.
> To address the patents issue in particular, because of the way patent law > is set up, if you're a big company, you are essentially forced to horde up > on so called "defensive patents". It's a like a cold war, where none of > the big corporations sue each other, for fear of getting sued in return. And they like it just fine that way, since they can all nuke any small upstart that threatens to horn in on their turf, especially one that looks like it won't play by the unspoken rules of the existing cartel.
You know the sort of unspoken rules they have. Like that they will spend no money fixing bugs except security holes. Or they will all outsource their support simultaneously and anyone who reneges by keeping support local to grow its market share by not pissing off its customers as much as its rivals will get punished in some way. There's all kinds of collusion like this, though nothing easy to prove.
> That's the way the rules were set up, and Microsoft (and other > corporations, like IBM, Sun, etc.) are just playing the smart strategy > according to those rules. Again, it's fallacious to think in terms of > "evil corporations hate our freedom, that's why they patent everything" > versus "acquiring patents is the action with the highest utility at this > point". Either way, such patents do more harm than good. I think all so-called IP law does more harm than good, save perhaps trademark law.
> On the other hand, I know some people who had pirated Windows XP, but > are going to pay for Windows Vista simply because Vista is too much of a > pain to pirate. Fools -- they already have a free copy of XP and are willing to pay for a downgrade?
> [snip some creative ideas for making money; I've no comments or arguments > against that] They prove copyright law unnecessary to "promoting the progress of science and the useful arts", which in my opinion leaves it at the mercy of the First Amendment protecting freedom of speech and of the press.
Philipp Leitner - 14 Jul 2007 09:46 GMT Honestly, you have some strange ideas of what is 'coercive'. If I coded some app and want to see a few bucks in return for people using it ... how can that be coercive? If I plant potatoes and want people to pay for them before eating them, do I "restrict people's access to my potatoes"?
> Well I can see a few options here that don't involve coercive > activities and can still make you money. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > course, if third parties can't create compatible servers then you are > doing something anticompetitive and sneaky! [snipped a lot more ideas]
All of those ideas are possibilities, but all of them will only work out only in certain circumstances (do you see a big company like IA produce games 'for the benefit of their own pleasure'?). I cannot see why you are so strictly against the simple business model of 'we produce something, you pay to use it'. And no, I really do not think that everybody has the legal conception that such a business model is evil and coercive (as you seem to imply). I think this is just the most natural business model that can come around.
/philipp
Twisted - 14 Jul 2007 22:37 GMT > Honestly, you have some strange ideas of what is 'coercive'. If I > coded some app and want to see a few bucks in return for people using > it ... how can that be coercive? If I plant potatoes and want people > to pay for them before eating them, do I "restrict people's access to > my potatoes"? I don't see anything coercive about those. Not giving people copies of your app if they don't pay, or your potatoes if they don't pay. It's your right not to give them to someone if you don't want to, or to want something in return.
Where it gets coercive is if you insist that the guy with the potatoes must eat them and cannot plant the "eyes" off one to grow his own, simply because then he might not buy more from you, and you want to force him to only ever do business with you. (An agribusiness called Monsanto has raised a lot of farmers' hackles by doing almost exactly this.) Likewise if you don't let the guy with a copy of your app "grow" more copies.
Then you aren't just setting the terms of one transaction with you as a participant; you now seek to govern the buyer's use of what they purchased and limit in various ways after the fact. THAT is coercive. In fact, it abrogates some of the buyer's property rights in what they bought.
In the case of copy-protection schemes, they all tend to be ineffective against a determined adversary, and they all tend to compromise users' property rights in the computing hardware they own as well as the copies of software they bought. They may not be able to back up the software, for example, or effectively restricted from upgrading their hardware (MS Vista refuses to work without buying a new copy if you replace the mobo, from some reports I've read).
> All of those ideas are possibilities, but all of them will only work > out only in certain circumstances (do you see a big company like IA > produce games 'for the benefit of their own pleasure'?). I'm not claiming they are universally applicable. In any given situation a few of them will be options and most of them won't be, I expect.
> I cannot see why you are so strictly against the simple business model of 'we > produce something, you pay to use it'. I'm not. Keep it on a server you have to pay to access and I won't complain of coercion. I won't use it, but I don't see other peoples' property rights being trampled on in this case, nor their freedom of speech.
I also see no problem with selling disks with copies. It's trying to control someone's use of what they purchased down the line that bothers me. I wouldn't want to buy a hammer and get told by the manufacturer that they would spy on me and confiscate the hammer if I ever used it to hit nails of a brand they didn't like, or told I couldn't lend it or sell it, or told I was required to check in with them for permission every time I wanted to hit something with it. Software with copy protection and especially with any kind of "product activation" is exactly like this hypothetical hammer and its ham- handed manufacturer. And if I bought a hammer and it came with a shrink-wrapped notice claiming that by using the hammer I "agreed" to never use it on nails bigger than 3" long, or whatever or whatever, I'd ignore the notice as not any kind of binding agreement at all. I don't recall entering into any kind of negotiations with the manufacturer after all, only the retailer at point-of-sale, and I certainly don't recall signing anything. If it also said the manufacturer expressly disclaimed all warranties even fitness-for- purpose I'd take it back to the store and insist on a refund. Unfortunately there's not as much choice with software as with hammers -- just about everybody disclaims fitness-for-purpose, amazingly.
> And no, I really do not think > that everybody has the legal conception that such a business model is > evil and coercive (as you seem to imply). I think this is just the > most natural business model that can come around. If you mean a business model of "hand me that twenty and I'll hand you this valuable object" I agree. If you mean any business model that depends on forcibly restricting the customer's use of their purchase after the sale has been completed, then I disagree; that is about as unnatural as things can get. In fact, it undermines the twin pillars of free-market democracy, one being freedom of speech and transaction and the other being strong guarantees of property rights. Undermining these is damn dangerous. And treating information (other than particular copies, separately) as if it were "property" and considering any use you don't like (whether or not it takes a copy away from you) as "theft" is a perversion of every natural law.
Oliver Wong - 16 Jul 2007 19:37 GMT >> That's not necessarily true. Your day job might not be paying >> enough, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Hire out your programming expertise then. There is always work for > people with a talent for coding. Yes, that's exactly what I was suggesting, and seems to run counter to your "let's give all software away for free" philosophy.
>> Depends on your definition of "coercive and extortionate", I suppose. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > possesses, and construct a duplicate of that object with their own raw > materials and time and on their own dime.) It's the *other* stuff that your definition includes which worries me. Stuff like charging money for the right to use a specific software program, for example.
>> Take >> the computer game industry, for example. Most games are one-shot deals. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > course, if third parties can't create compatible servers then you are > doing something anticompetitive and sneaky! The success rate for this business model seems to be much lower than the traditional model.
> * Make a game for your own enjoyment. Your own future enjoyment of the > game is the "payment". The success rate for this business model seems to be much lower than the traditional model.
> * Say you have a great game idea but need financing to create the > game. If enough money is pledged you'll make the game and give it > away. If not enough is pledged by a certain date you'll return the > money already received and won't make the game. This amounts to being > paid up front to write the code, so you don't lose money if it's > easily copied once it's released. The success rate for this business models seems to be much lower than the traditional model.
And so on... hopefully, you see the pattern here. Recall once again that businesses are about making money, and given two business models, one which is more successful than the other, it seems to make sense that most businesses would pick the more successful one.
I mean, it's great that you're able to come up with alternative business models. But the business people aren't really *looking* for alternative business models. They're plenty happy with the model they currently have (the one of selling games with copy protection). *You're* the one who's unhappy with that model, and I'm not sure you have enough clout to sway the entire game industry.
You could try voting with your wallet and boycotting games with copyprotection. But for what it's worth, there exists games out there for which I consider the copyprotection scheme sufficiently unobtrusive that they have a minimal impact on my purchasing decision. Therefore, I am likely in the foreseeable future to continue buying games that have copy protection on them. And I suspect there is a significant market who will continue to do so as well.
I wanted to highlight one particular business model you mentioned:
> * Demo it to rich people until you sell one copy for a bazillion > bucks. Retire. Don't care if the rich guy then spreads copies around. > Some people have piles of money and nothing better to do with it than > be the first ever to do/have something. This business model is laughably ridiculous. It's comparable to having "Win the lottery" as your retirement plan. By including this within your list, you've weakened the credibility of the rest of the list. IMHO, anyway. Go for quality of ideas, not quantity.
>> Different games take different approaches to restricting access to the >> software. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > withholding access to something for someone who can pay its marginal > cost. Everybody has a different code of ethics and moral compass. To me, if someone tells me "I'll only let you have A if you promise not to do B", and you say "Fine", and then take the A, and then later go ahead and do B, you have committed a "grave moral wrong" in my eyes:
"I'll only tell you this secret piece of information (which happens to take the form of a series of zeros and ones) if you promise not to tell anyone else." "Ok, I promise." "Here it is (binaries for a video game)." "(torrents it and shares it with the world)." "Hey, what give? You promised you wouldn't tell anyone else my secret." "Information wants to be free! You're oppressing me!"
[...]
>> It was recently fashionable to demonize Microsoft, such that a lot of >> accusations thrown their way was unfair. I think that trend has died a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Seriously. It does suck. Maybe it was too subtle, but the implied question was "How could you possibly make an informed decision about whether a piece of software sucks or not without having actually ever tried it?"
>> First of all, anthropophormizing corporations is dangerous, because it >> then becomes extremely tempting to assign emotions to them (e.g. fear, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No, it makes more sense to regard them as emotionless, cold-blooded > sociopaths, since that is what all large corporations are. You use the keyword "No", but you seem to be agreeing with me. What do you *really* mean?
[...]
> I said they couldn't compete and decided to try to use their > money to buy laws to effectively outlaw competing with Microsoft. This > much is provable fact (they can't compete -> observe Linux server-side > market share eating Windows alive; ditto Apache vs. IIS and JSP vs. > ASP; Your evidence doesn't support your assertion: "Compete" doesn't mean "Win". Maybe they are simply competing and losing.
>> I think a much more accurate model is to think of corporations as a >> perfectly rational utilitarian whose sole metric is profit. > > This fails to explain Arthur Andersen and Enron, Worldcom, Sony's > brain-dead rootkit shenanigans, and lots of other things. It wasn't intended to explain those things. But if you want an easy to grasp explanation: the corporations don't have perfect information. You can be perfectly rational, but make the in-hindsight-wrong-decision if you don't have perfect information.
> Your > "perfectly rational utilitarian" has an IQ inversely proportional to > the CEO's annual salary. I doubt they actually are perfectly rational. Note that I didn't say they were perfectly rational. I said that thinking of corporations as "a perfectly rational utilitarian" is a "much more accurate model" than an emotional anthromorphic entity who bases its decision mostly on rage, envy, fear, etc.
> A rational RIAA would embrace music sharing and monetize music some > new way. I suspect it's actually vastly more complicated than that, but I'm too lazy to explain all the details right now, so I won't be surprised if you continue to believe this.
> In practise, companies often show some degree of dominance by > the will of one or a few people exhibiting all the usual human > foibles. Cartels more so than individual companies; they can be > downright schizophrenic and for obvious reasons. Ultimately however > they often lust for power and control, and obviously so, regardless of > whether this is rational. I think you have a different definition of rational than I do. If they lust for power and control (or to phrase it more formally, if their metric is power and control), then doing whatever you can to maximize power and control is the most rational thing a utilitarian can do.
The problem, I think, is that you're applying your metrics to the actions of another entity with a different set of metrics, and they aren't maximize their score in your game, and so you suspect they must be irrational, when actually they may be maximizing their score in their own game.
[...]
>> There's no good vs evil, moral vs immoral issues to enter into the >> consideration of a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Brokenenglishstan, with the result being customers abandon you in > droves? (1) Profits exceed costs. (2) Imperfect information.
> In fact, the guys that do this stuff are not doing it for the > benefit of the company's long term profits. They do it to get short [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > retire, leaving someone else holding the bag when the customer neglect > comes back to bite the company in the butt. Are you implying that this is irrational behaviour, given the metrics that the companies are applying to themselves?
> Companies show some tendency to maximize short-term revenues, about > three or four months out (roughly one fiscal quarter, which cannot be > coincidence), and damn the long term consequences of their behavior. Again, are you implying that this is irrational behaviour, given the metrics that the companies are applying to themselves?
> They act like spoiled children that have not learned empathy, more > than anything else -- little sociopaths with no more than a vague > sense of any time scale beyond a few months, and impulsively grasping > for shiny baubles and smacking at anything they don't like. Recall my warning:
<quote> anthropophormizing corporations is dangerous, because it then becomes extremely tempting to assign emotions to them (e.g. fear, jealousy, envy, anger, etc.) and then to try to make predictions about their future behaviour based on what emotions they are supposedly experiencing. </quote>
>> (I see a lot of banners citing IIS is better than Apache, for example). > > I don't. Must be Firefox's adblock. You really should get that plugin. You seem to be under the assumption that I do not wish to see such advertisements. On the contrary, this particular ad allowed me to be more informed about the real world than you. ;)
[...]
>> On the other hand, I know some people who had pirated Windows XP, >> but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Fools -- they already have a free copy of XP and are willing to pay > for a downgrade? Your question is based on false premise, and thus is nonsensical. Here's the information I'm guessing you want:
My friends already have a free copy of XP and are willing to pay to replace it with Vista.
- Oliver
Roedy Green - 16 Jul 2007 21:46 GMT On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:37:01 -0400, "Oliver Wong" <owong@castortech.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
> I mean, it's great that you're able to come up with alternative >business models. My thinking is that software should be rented. You don't give all your money up front. The vendor then spends time doing things that make existing users happy rather than silly flash to sell naive new users. It evens the flow of revenue for both parties.
See http://mindprod.com/project/prebrandedsoftwarerental.html
 Signature Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com
Jeff Higgins - 16 Jul 2007 22:14 GMT > My thinking is that software should be rented. You don't give all > your money up front. The vendor then spends time doing things that > make existing users happy rather than silly flash to sell naive new > users. It evens the flow of revenue for both parties. Yes[] No[X] Sounds like a good idea, but consider software subscriptions, support contracts, service contracts, etc. Ends up the same old thing, silly flash each period, bugs not fixed, and enough rent paid on my part to lease a houseboat on the riviera for some sales exec.
Twisted - 17 Jul 2007 07:35 GMT > > My thinking is that software should be rented. You don't give all > > your money up front. The vendor then spends time doing things that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > silly flash each period, bugs not fixed, and enough rent paid on my part > to lease a houseboat on the riviera for some sales exec. Seconded. Software "rental" or "as a service" is a euphemism for software "serfdom": taking our functionality away from us and renting it back to us. The existing gratuitous upgrade treadmills or (in business settings) mandatory "maintenance" plans are bad enough. All are clearly extortionate behavior by a company powerful enough to game the system in whatever ways maximize its own revenues at everyone else's expense. Robber barons.
Roedy Green - 17 Jul 2007 08:02 GMT >Seconded. Software "rental" or "as a service" is a euphemism for >software "serfdom" I think you have it backwards. Once a vendor has all your money he can laugh at you. He can sell you crap that does not work at all. With rental, after 2 months you can leave having given him only a fraction of the dough he would get had he delivered.
The other advantage is the vendor keeps all his customers up to date. He does not need to worry about supporting old code. he can update as often as he pleases to fix bugs quickly.
 Signature Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com
Twisted - 17 Jul 2007 09:51 GMT On Jul 17, 3:02 am, Roedy Green <see_webs...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> >Seconded. Software "rental" or "as a service" is a euphemism for > >software "serfdom" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rental, after 2 months you can leave having given him only a fraction > of the dough he would get had he delivered. Wrong. With the subscription, he can laugh all the way to the bank. Maybe he's locked you into an N-year contract. Maybe he simply has a monopoly on the software and nobody else's is remotely compatible. Most likely your data is on his servers instead of your computer, and he can dictate terms by holding this data hostage.
Not to mention, right now if you want to word process, you pay $X up front and then can word process to your hearts' content for the rest of your life for only the costs of electricity and keeping the hardware maintained. With your vaunted subscription model, you have to pay $X over and over and over again or the software stops working. After some point in time you've paid far more money than in the non- subscription scenario but you're no better off. Continuing to use the software doesn't cost the software vendor anything, unlike continuing to use electricity which costs the hydro company, yet you're being billed as if it's a utility whose "consumption" somehow actually is consuming something other than electricity. This simply doesn't make any sense! It's extortion, pure and simple.
"Rent-to-own" where after you've paid the original full purchase price you "own" it and don't need to pay any more except to get a whole new version is better, and arguably better than the current system where you pay up-front.
Better yet is just to disallow software merchants disclaiming "fitness for purpose".
Best of all is to set information free and charge for things that are genuinely scarce.
> The other advantage is the vendor keeps all his customers up to date. Yes, a very big advantage for the vendor. Not for the customers, of course. Customers of course get this experience: * New bugs appear as if by magic and they can't just sit at a version they can use and whose bugs they're used to working around. * Features disappear or tell you one day you now have to pay extra to use them. * DRM components are updated, which invariably makes things worse rather than better for consumers. * And so forth.
Forced updates and "subscription models" have some prototypes we can examine: * Google Groups. The interface and bugs keep changing. Bugs and issues don't get fixed often and it's not possible to get ahold of the developers to report stuff or get help. * Intuit's upgrade treadmill basically makes its tax-preparation and accounting software into "subscription" software. There are numerous reports of former functionality disappearing or becoming "premium" stuff that they demand extra money for you to use. * Subscription TV services such as satellite companies drop channels you can only get back by paying more each month than you used to. (While their costs are no doubt actually going *down* over time.) They frequently rearrange channels or otherwise gratuitously scramble your favorite lists into unusability every couple of months. * Prices keep jacking up and up on both of the above items that aren't free. * Apple's iTunes DRM keeps changing. Upgrading is apparently mandatory for some things to keep working, from all accounts, making it essentially a subscription, so there's no escape from the random and arbitrary limits on song-burning, playlist-building, and other things gradually contracting, from 7 of something down to 5 and then 4, and things of that nature. * There are numerous well-documented examples of automatic updates to anti-virus subscriptions generating new bugs, false positives, or otherwise corrupting things, and often expiring something so that you have to pay for a more expensive version, instead of just paying the existing subscription. * Microsoft has pushed a nefarious Windows update, "Windows Genuine Advantage Notification", by deceptively putting it into the so-called "critical" updates, which are supposed to only be security patches. Windows Genuine Advantage was made outright mandatory but didn't do much harm to most users of Windows XP. However, those who downloaded the "Notification" update and installed it, which would supposedly just tell them whether or not their XP was genuine (what the existing WGA already was determining and reporting to Microsoft when you used Windows Update), found that in fact it would classify a percentage of installations as "pirated" basically at random, including known legitimate ones. In fact, the "Notification" was nothing of the sort; it was a booby-trap that would cause WGA to fail and XP to demand reactivation on a random percentage of the infected machines. Of course, reactivation of XP has suddenly become curiously difficult right around the time of the big Vista roll-out ... it's notable that Microsoft continues to push the WGAN "security patch" at those users like myself that have refused to install it, and that if you "hide" the update in the Windows Update Web site interface, this particular one periodically unhides itself. If you're not wary, the automatic update tray thingie will download it and try to install it soon after that happens if you don't go and rehide it. (Needless to say, I've long since turned off automatic installation of updates. I review the list when it says there are new updates and it's bogus fairly often. Besides the bogus WGAN "security patch" one update, cryptically named "917953", repeatedly shows up as new after it's been installed. In fact, I install it again every time there's other patches than just that one showing up new, and after a couple of reboots it again shows up as if it were brand new! It does so periodically every few days until the next batch of updates. This has been the case for more than a year now. So I manage the update process manually, or my computer would be rebooting itself every day or two due to "917953" if it worked at all after being infected with WGA "notification".)
Actually, I guess WGA "notification" *is* a security patch of a sort. It just doesn't provide any security for the user's computer (rather the opposite, as it's more vulnerable to requiring reactivation, which is bad). Rather, it is a "critical security patch" for Microsoft's cash flow, and particularly the less-than-stellar sales of Vista...
So, does any of the above sound like anything you'd want becoming more widespread than it already is? Oh, I forgot, you're apparently planning to be a vendor of such "services", which means you'd be laughing all the way to the bank. So I guess your answer would be "yes".
I know what mine is.
Roedy Green - 17 Jul 2007 21:00 GMT >Wrong. With the subscription, he can laugh all the way to the bank. >Maybe he's locked you into an N-year contract. Purchasing is 100 year contract with a guarantee the product will fail.
The whole point of rental is to avoid locking in. In any system I have seen the worst you are on the hook for is one year.
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Roedy Green - 17 Jul 2007 23:24 GMT >Wrong. With the subscription, he can laugh all the way to the bank. >Maybe he's locked you into an N-year contract. One problem with buying is you don't know how long your software will run. The vendor is under no obligation to keep it working after he gets your money. I have an expensive copy of TopStyle gathering dust that won't work under vista.
When rental, it is very clear just how long your program will continue to work.
What really burns me is vendors who try to SELL me an upgrade to fix BUGS. He should be paying ME to apologise!
 Signature Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products The Java Glossary http://mindprod.com
Twisted - 19 Jul 2007 11:40 GMT On Jul 17, 6:24 pm, Roedy Green <see_webs...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> >Wrong. With the subscription, he can laugh all the way to the bank. > >Maybe he's locked you into an N-year contract. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > When rental, it is very clear just how long your program will continue > to work. This is ludicrous.
You buy, and it works forever, assuming you don't change or upgrade the hardware or OS too much. It's not like a car; it shouldn't "wear out" unless deliberately timebombed by the author, in which case it should be avoided in favor of the competition anyway.
You rent, and it only works until you stop paying.
In effect, you buy and you pay once, or maybe infrequently when a new version is released and you can't avoid upgrading perhaps because only the new version works on MS Windows Pista or some such reason.
You rent and you pay every goddamn month all over again.
Also, you buy and when the vendor inevitably stops supporting the product, you can still continue to use it although you can't expect there to be any further updates for compatibility, so eventually as you move on with your hardware and OS it will die, but it will last years first.
You rent and when the vendor inevitably stops supporting the product it instantly stops working, or lasts at most one more month.
And of course, you use FOSS you can pay as little as zilch, and there is no single vendor who if they stop supporting the product they cause the product to no longer be supported at all. Vendors that want money will have support contracts you can sign up for IF YOU WANT TO or need it because your use is mission-critical. FOSS vendors with pay support contracts on offer are far nicer and more honest than anyone selling "software as a service". For one thing, you can use the software as much and as long as you want to without paying, though without vendor support. If you want vendor support you can pay for it. If the vendor goes under or quits supporting it you can likely find ANOTHER company offering support, instead of being up the creek. You don't have to change to a different program to continue to have support, and pay for the new program, and deal with migrating data, retraining users, and all of those additional hassles, which are also an expense in a business context. If the worst comes to the worst, and it's mission critical for you, has no known alternatives that are good substitutes for your usage, and no longer has any vendors providing support at all, you can hire a few geeks to provide your own in-house support because you have (or should have) the full unobfuscated source code and low-level documentation! FOSS is therefore especially important if you're a business user, because a huge amount of risk and uncertainty with regular commercial software, which gets worse with "rental" software like you advocate, simply disappears with FOSS.
I know which gives the most value for the money, and which the least.
If you don't, or you're simply wrong, well, I guess that's just your tough luck. :P
Roedy Green - 22 Jul 2007 00:23 GMT >You buy, and it works forever, assuming you don't change or upgrade >the hardware or OS too much That's the theory, but in practice every few weeks Microsoft upgrades your OS.. At any point they could introduce an incompatibility.
I do hardware upgrades of some sort at least once a year. So that gives me LESS of a guarantee than if I rented the software for a year.
The problem is:
1. there is no guarantee the software will work when you buy. The assumption is, once you have the executable, if you claim not to like it, you are lying.
2. there in no guarantee it will continue to work, particularly through a hardware or OS upgrade.
With renting, we are agreeing the software will work for a given period of time. The agreement can be cancelled, and the program made to stop working. During that time I have access to all the bug fixes. My costs are laid out in advance.
As I said before, the most outrageous practice is to make me pay for an upgrade to get a bug fixed. That is like making you pay extra for a defective light bulb.
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Twisted - 22 Jul 2007 11:08 GMT On Jul 21, 7:23 pm, Roedy Green <see_webs...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> >You buy, and it works forever, assuming you don't change or upgrade > >the hardware or OS too much > > That's the theory, but in practice every few weeks Microsoft upgrades > your OS.. At any point they could introduce an incompatibility. And in practise, how often does that actually happen? Here's a hint: in all the years I've been using WinXP I've not had an MS update break any third-party software seriously. If worse comes to worst you roll back the update or use System Restore and freeze at that patch level, if the third-party app is mission-critical and there's no update available for it.
Software as a "rental" won't help this. You'd still be stuck until the software vendor fixed it. You wouldn't be able to avoid or roll back the problem update either. More generally you'd have much less control over your hardware and much less freedom to administer your machine as you wished; more decisions would be made for you by vendors that have ulterior motives. They will make gratuitous changes that force their hands deeper into your pockets once they have that level of control, because the few existing examples actually do.
> 1. there is no guarantee the software will work when you buy. The > assumption is, once you have the executable, if you claim not to like > it, you are lying. And a rental would not also have no warranty and no representations of fitness-for-purpose? In a dream world maybe.
> 2. there in no guarantee it will continue to work, particularly > through a hardware or OS upgrade. And a rental company would never dream of screwing its users over by just up and closing up shop one day? It would never push a buggy update at its users that was a showstopper? Yeah right. At least with normal software, if they ship a buggy update, the first users to get burned by it warn everyone else and the rest don't install that update. In your dream world, they have no choice -- instead of being able to avoid the buggy update, all they can do is treat the warning as a tornado warning and back up everything and hunker down until it's over and the damage is done. Assuming they can back up anything, because the data may not be really under their control anymore!
> With renting, we are agreeing the software will work for a given > period of time. Are we? I've never seen any software company agree that software will work. Ever. I don't expect that to change anytime soon either.
> The agreement can be cancelled, and the program made > to stop working. During that time I have access to all the bug fixes. > My costs are laid out in advance. Why not let you keep using it, but not get updates? That doesn't cost them anything. It's pure greed!
> As I said before, the most outrageous practice is to make me pay for > an upgrade to get a bug fixed. That is like making you pay extra for > a defective light bulb. Well, the way I see it, software "rental" means you pay every month for a bug to get fixed EVEN WHEN THERE WERE NO BUGS FIXED THAT MONTH instead of only when there actually were bugs fixed. I don't see that as being an advantage to anyone except the vendor.
But then I already know where your sympathies lie. You're contemplating being such a vendor, not being one of the hapless users screwed by such a vendor, and that is why you are pushing something that would harm 99.99% of the population and benefit only 0.01%.
Roedy Green - 24 Jul 2007 08:38 GMT >And in practise, how often does that actually happen? Here's a hint: >in all the years I've been using WinXP I've not had an MS update break >any third-party software seriously I have Vista. help in most programs stopped working. Topstyle stopped entirely. TweakDun stopped working The low level access to CMOS, the floppy and the hard disk in turned off to DOS emulation. 4NT blacks the screen if I make an error.
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nebulous99@gmail.com - 25 Jul 2007 06:14 GMT On Jul 24, 3:38 am, Roedy Green <see_webs...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> >And in practise, how often does that actually happen? Here's a hint: > >in all the years I've been using WinXP I've not had an MS update break [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > off to DOS emulation. > 4NT blacks the screen if I make an error. That's because you were daft enough to install Vista.
I've never had anything of the sort happen simply from keeping XP up to date.
Vista is a completely new and different product, not merely an update, and it's made something happen that once was thought impossible: Windows ME stopping being the worst operating system ever widely distributed to consumers. It is now merely the SECOND-worst.
Roedy Green - 08 Aug 2007 01:33 GMT >That's because you were daft enough to install Vista. Not quite. It's because I was daft enough to buy a new machine which gives you no choice in OS. There are no new machines being shipped with XP any more in my neck of the woods. The only alternatives I can think of would be: 1. wait a year to buy the new machine and hope Vista is more mature. 2. wait a year to save up the $450 for a free-standing copy of XP. 3. toss my investment in Windows software, and writing code for Windows customers, retire the windows-specific parts of my website and start afresh with Linux.
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~kurt - 08 Aug 2007 02:53 GMT > Not quite. It's because I was daft enough to buy > a new machine which gives you no choice in OS. > There are no new machines being shipped with XP > any more in my neck of the woods. In the US, you can still order a Dell with XP. They got enough complaints that they decided to listen.
In the stores - everything is Vista. I think I am going to once again build a machine since mine is getting a little long in the tooth.
- Kurt
Oliver Wong - 24 Jul 2007 18:04 GMT > With renting, we are agreeing the software will work for a given > period of time. The agreement can be cancelled, and the program made [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > an upgrade to get a bug fixed. That is like making you pay extra for > a defective light bulb. Apparently, Microsoft wants to get into the software-renting business, with Windows 7 (the successor to Vista): http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070722-2010-a-windows-7-odyssey.html
- Oliver
nebulous99@gmail.com - 25 Jul 2007 06:33 GMT > Apparently, Microsoft wants to get into the software-renting business, > with Windows 7 (the successor to Vista):http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070722-2010-a-windows-7-odysse... Well, that tears it. In another decade or so WinME will be only the THIRD worst consumer OS ever!
I have no intention of ever even getting Vista, let alone this proposed even-worse (P)OS.
I fully intend to resurrect an aging machine, rescue any remaining data on it not long since copied, and turn it into a Ubuntu box someday soon. If MS keeps up with this and copyright takes long enough to up and die, I'll probably have to eventually migrate to using it or something similar as my primary OS and relegate MS stuff to just a games machine at some point. Or give up on games <sigh>...
Mark Rafn - 19 Jul 2007 16:20 GMT >>Wrong. With the subscription, he can laugh all the way to the bank. >>Maybe he's locked you into an N-year contract.
>One problem with buying is you don't know how long your software will >run. The vendor is under no obligation to keep it working after he >gets your money. The vendor is under very little obligation at all. With the vast majority of software, though, it will run forever, but your needs will change sooner or later.
>I have an expensive copy of TopStyle gathering dust >that won't work under vista. Sure. It didn't stop working under vista; it NEVER worked under vista. It'll run forever under whatever OS you bought it for.
>When rental, it is very clear just how long your program will continue >to work. Not at all. The rental model makes no more guarantees about long-term upgrades, the company staying in business or continuing to work on the product, etc. than the sale model does. -- Mark Rafn dagon@dagon.net <http://www.dagon.net/>
Twisted - 21 Jul 2007 07:01 GMT > Not at all. The rental model makes no more guarantees about long-term > upgrades, the company staying in business or continuing to work on the > product, etc. than the sale model does. And to top it off, the rental model more thoroughly puts you at the vendor's mercy. What if your data is stored on their servers instead of locally? What if the software requires (gratuitously -- its main functionality doesn't, but its license validation BS does) their net servers to be available and they happen to go down? The vendor can force-feed you a downgrade, i.e. disable a feature, and then charge extra for a "deluxe" rental option that brings the feature back. We've seen these tactics used with the "standard" upgrade treadmill model by the likes of Intuit before; and satellite TV providers dropping channels from packages you had resulting in your having to pay extra to continue receiving them; there's no reason to have any faith whatsoever that software renters won't do equally nasty things whenever they feel the need to show revenue growth at a quarterly meeting with shareholders or some such. Once you're dependent on them for productivity (and especially if they have any of your documents hostage!) they can just squeeze and squeeze. A regular software vendor can only do that to the extent that they can make an update essential (MS gratuitously breaks backward compatibility so as soon as one person in one workplace uses a new version of MS Word, their co- workers that sometimes use documents from them have to follow suit, and the new version then spreads virus-like and Microsoft laughs all the way to the bank, so this IS possible, but at least they have to work for it)...
Roedy Green - 22 Jul 2007 03:48 GMT >>When rental, it is very clear just how long your program will continue >>to work. > >Not at all. The rental model makes no more guarantees about long-term >upgrades, the company staying in business or continuing to work on the >product, etc. than the sale model does. Yes, but you can cancel your rental contract before the vendor has all the money you planned to give him in your lifetime. With purchase, you trust him, and give it to him all up front. You have no leverage.
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Twisted - 22 Jul 2007 11:16 GMT On Jul 21, 10:48 pm, Roedy Green <see_webs...@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>When rental, it is very clear just how long your program will continue > >>to work. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the money you planned to give him in your lifetime. With purchase, > you trust him, and give it to him all up front. You have no leverage. Ah, but you are forgetting to do the math. If I pay $200 for some software up front, I get anywhere from months to years to forever of functionality out of it for that $200.
If I pay $50 a month for some "rental" BS, I get only four months from my first $200.
As for leverage, WHAT leverage? I pay $50 a month for internet service and another for landline service but I sure the f.ck don't have any leverage with the phone company! If they want to change things in a way that screws over half their customers they just go ahead and do it, and people grit their teeth and pay for another month. For the simple reason that a) they try to lock people into long-term contracts and b) you really get by these days without a phone and broadband, not in the developed world. Oh and c) they're the only provider of the phone and one of only two providers of the broadband in the area.
Software vendors "renting" will obviously be worse, because they'll be the only vendor period. At least the phone company has the cable company to compete (or just form an uneasy alliance) with in the matter of broadband service. A rental Windows would mean just Microsoft, with no competition, and of course they would do whatever they wanted to do and people would still have an enormous barrier to switching away. Worse I'm guessing than they do already, with non- rental Windows.
And of course, rental Windows might sneakily put your own files (or a decryption key now needed to use them) on a Microsoft server somewhere, so quitting the Microsoft habit would then mean wipe and start over from scratch.
You keep ignoring this particular point. SOFTWARE RENTAL NECESSARILY MEANS THE VENDOR STICKS THEIR GRUBBY MITS INTO MY f.cking COMPUTER! At minimum for enforcement purposes. ONCE THEY DO THAT AND HAVE ME PLUGGED INTO THEIR SERVERS 24/7 ANYWAY WHAT'S TO STOP THEM TAKING MY DATA HOSTAGE TOO? THEY HAVE EVERY REASON TO, SO DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY'LL JUST DECIDE TO BE NICE AND NOT DO IT ANYWAY?
If you really do think that, check yourself into the nearest nuthouse pronto, before you get parted from your money; you will be better off letting someone trustworthy in your close family manage it for you. Believe me.
Andreas Leitgeb - 23 Jul 2007 12:35 GMT > Software vendors "renting" will obviously be worse, ... Given your dislike against rental models, I really wonder how you cannot "see" Vendors switching to exactly that businessmodel, once they would be deprived of their current right of copy-control...
Twisted - 24 Jul 2007 01:03 GMT On Jul 23, 7:35 am, Andreas Leitgeb <a...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
> > Software vendors "renting" will obviously be worse, ... > > Given your dislike against rental models, I really wonder > how you cannot "see" Vendors switching to exactly that > businessmodel, once they would be deprived of their current > right of copy-control... Privilege of copy-control, and I don't see them being able to enforce a rental business model in the presence of free non-rental competition, since someone could freely reverse engineer their "service" and create standalone software to do the same job that was 100% compatible with the original (or 110% compatible -- now with support for empty wallets and systems without network access!).
The only exception I can foresee here is where the application is an MMORPG or similarly, and use of the vendor's servers is necessary for it to work. Even then, competing servers that can be used with compatible software could be created.
Evil business models would die. Software that can be implemented as purely local computation would have free local-computation-only implementations and there'd be no getting trapped unable to migrate from something like Windoze while someone like Bill Gates sticks a hand in your pocket. Server-based stuff that could be implemented purely locally included. Server-based stuff that is necessarily online, because it involves multiple users interacting online, might have decentralized p2p equivalents and certainly would have competition, so prices would be driven down to operating expenses plus reasonable margins.
Everyone wins, except the fatcat types. They end up going from rich to merely being able to make ends meet, at worst, and may remain moderately wealthy given they have actual talents in a useful area. Mostly, it's management and lawyer types that would really lose out and may even have to switch careers and get an honest job. And even then they won't likely starve.
Twisted - 17 Jul 2007 06:49 GMT > > Hire out your programming expertise then. There is always work for > > people with a talent for coding. > > Yes, that's exactly what I was suggesting, and seems to run counter to > your "let's give all software away for free" philosophy. Nope. I don't have a problem with saying "I'll code this for you if you pay me thus-and-such". It's trying to control the downstream use of the code once published that bothers me.
> It's the *other* stuff that your definition includes which worries me. > Stuff like charging money for the right to use a specific software > program, for example. Let's see. If I use a specific software program where a copy is installed on my machine, what are the actual burdens I place on others in so doing? * The copy
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