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Java Forum / General / August 2007

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Java and avoiding software piracy?

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adamorn@gmail.com - 11 Jul 2007 01:27 GMT
Hi,

Im *hoping* to release an application that I developed in Java, and I
want to release a free version as well as a pay version.

Clearly I want to be able to avoid people cracking it, or creating key
generators...  Although i know that it is unlikely to actually stop
them entirely.. I want to do as much as I can to ensure that IF they
want to crack/keygen it, that it will be as difficult as possible.

Please let me know what your thoughts are as to how to achieve this.
Strategies?  Resources?

Please send them my way!

Thanks!
Ashoka! - 11 Jul 2007 02:12 GMT
On Jul 10, 8:27 pm, adam...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Thanks!

Depends on how may people are going to be using the paid version you
can make a small application that collects several system properties
like size of hard disk etc and use these as a seeds for a random
number generator. The random number will be sent to your server to get
a corresponding key. You will then mark that key as used and not allow
future registration on it. On the down side every time the users
change system configuration they will require a new key. You can
manage this by asking them to enter private info like credit card
number (you already have this because you charged them the first
time).

Its not foolproof and needs some work on the concept but you get the
picture.

regards
Usman Ismail
~kurt - 11 Jul 2007 05:40 GMT
> Depends on how may people are going to be using the paid version you
> can make a small application that collects several system properties
> like size of hard disk etc and use these as a seeds for a random
> number generator. The random number will be sent to your server to get
> a corresponding key. You will then mark that key as used and not allow
> future registration on it. On the down side every time the users

Lots of computers are not connected to the Internet - just internal
networks.  One needs to take this into consideration.

- Kurt
Andrew Thompson - 11 Jul 2007 03:43 GMT
...
>Im *hoping* to release an application that I developed in Java, and I
>want to release a free version as well as a pay version.
...
>Please let me know what your thoughts are as to how to achieve this.

Charge for support, and drop that other nonsense
of keys.

Signature

Andrew Thompson
http://www.athompson.info/andrew/

adamorn@gmail.com - 11 Jul 2007 14:44 GMT
> adam...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Message posted via JavaKB.comhttp://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/java-general/200707/1

I think that charging for support will earn me very little $$$...  as
it is a little application.  But thanks for the interesting thought
Roedy Green - 11 Jul 2007 05:55 GMT
>Im *hoping* to release an application that I developed in Java, and I
>want to release a free version as well as a pay version.

see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/obfuscator.html
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com
Hunter Gratzner - 11 Jul 2007 07:35 GMT
On Jul 11, 2:27 am, adam...@gmail.com wrote:
> Clearly I want to be able to avoid people cracking it,

You can't. End of discussion.

> Please let me know what your thoughts are as to how to achieve this.
> Strategies?

You are wasting your time.
Roedy Green - 11 Jul 2007 07:50 GMT
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:35:45 -0700, Hunter Gratzner
<a24900@googlemail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
said :

>> Clearly I want to be able to avoid people cracking it,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>You are wasting your time.

You don't have to make it impossible. You merely have to make it more
expensive and frustrating than writing the code from scratch. If you
can insist on an Internet connection, then new possibilities open up
to drive pirates insane. There is also the option of native
compilation of highly optimised (and hence naturally obfuscated) code.

See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/obfuscator.html

--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com
Laie Techie - 11 Jul 2007 09:23 GMT
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:27:30 +0000, adamorn wrote:

> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Thanks!

There are several free decompilers so it is next to impossible to do what
you're asking.

Jet Brains (the makers of IDEA) store a bunch of information:
* Client Name (hashed)
* Client Number
* Expiration Date
* Expiration Version
* Key

All that stuff is combined together in some undisclosed binary format.
None of their methods returns a simple boolean or Date object.  The goal
is to use nondescript method names in nondescript classes.  Use of
reflection also makes it harder to crack.

-- Laie Techie
Lew - 11 Jul 2007 14:30 GMT
> Use of reflection also makes it harder to crack.

and maintain.

Don't use such a thing heavily throughout your code because you think it will
protect you from hackers.  Who would then protect you from yourself?

For a small authorization module reflection techniques can be useful.  Just
don't go replacing viable algorithms with it wholesale in a vain attempt to
secure your app.

Signature

Lew

adamorn@gmail.com - 11 Jul 2007 14:43 GMT
Ive read all the posts, and have to admit requiring an internet
connection isnt bad, seeing how the user has to download the
application to their computer to begin wih.  But still, easily
hackable with decompiled code.  But the reality is that some people
will pay for it and others will find a way to hack it.

I think I just want to put a relatively thin layer of security behind
it, but I do admit that if it is too easy to hack that it will welcome
all types of hackers, and casual users... So I want to make it at
least somewhat challenging for them.  In addition, my other concern is
that my server will go down (the one I pay some godaddy for), and then
the user will try to open their application and have it fail to reach
the server for license verification, making my paid users angry.

On the same thread, if I dont have them hit the server, or rather on
server verification I allow them entry to the application, then a
firewall that blocks the connection will simply give them access to
the full app.

As for a key only, perhaps it is a good way to go.  But there are just
infinite key generators out there, so clearly anybody who wants to
will be able to find a hack, unless I release fake hacks.

Thanks for the feedback.  While I think it is a bit of a lost cause, I
will do something based on the feedback here and post my final
decisions on the matter for any future reader of this thread.

Thanks
~kurt - 11 Jul 2007 15:19 GMT
> Ive read all the posts, and have to admit requiring an internet
> connection isnt bad, seeing how the user has to download the
> application to their computer to begin wih.  But still, easily

What typically happens is the application is downloaded, burnt to a
CD or DVD (maybe even copied to a floppy if it is small enough),
virus scanned according to the company policy, and then installed
on the internal network.  If you go this route, then you must have
some way for the user to call in to get their authorization code.
We ran into this with JBuilder - they only had email support listed,
and it took them over a week to get back to us.  I'll never buy one
of their products again.

- Kurt
RedGrittyBrick - 11 Jul 2007 15:42 GMT
> my ... concern is
> that my server will go down (the one I pay some godaddy for), and then
> the user will try to open their application and have it fail to reach
> the server for license verification, making my paid users angry.

I may be wrong but I thought that what was being suggested was accessing
an Internet server for initial *registration* after installation, not
for ongoing *verification* on each invocation of the program.

At registration you would retrieve and store a token that the
application would then check at startup - to see if the stored token
matches the gathered hardware fingerprint.

E.g. the token could be the fingerprint and expiry date signed using
your private RSA key. The app would hold your RSA public key and use it
to verify the signature of the fingerprint. Of course a miscreant could
probably hack the bytecode to skip the verification check.

An alternative is to make your application a web-hosted application like
"Google Docs & spreadsheets".
Bent C Dalager - 11 Jul 2007 10:35 GMT
>Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>them entirely.. I want to do as much as I can to ensure that IF they
>want to crack/keygen it, that it will be as difficult as possible.

Now, this depends a lot on the nature of your application and your
target market, but in the general case chances are that in doing this
you will be destroying whatever market you otherwise might have
had. If you're Microsoft, and therefore ubiqutous, or AutoCAD(*), and
therefore indispensable, you can get away with the unavoidable
inconvenience a copyright protection system causes your users.

In pretty much all other cases, however, your main problem is probably
in creating a user base that desires your product and the best way to
do this is to make it as easy as possible to use your software -
whether it's paid for or not. Adding registration keys, activation
schemes, etc., isn't doing this for you.

* - Or whatever it is they are using these days.

Cheers
    Bent D
Signature

Bent Dalager - bcd@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
                                   powered by emacs

Twisted - 11 Jul 2007 22:27 GMT
Don't waste your time and effort trying to lock up information. It
will always be either easily copied or unusable, one or the other.

Instead, make money off your ancillary expertise in the software, its
internals, and the problem domain. Your talents in that area are
scarce and rivalrous, so they make sense as private or metered goods.
Charge for customization of someone's install of the software, or for
support beyond basic bug-fixes and how-tos. Open a consultancy, with
the software as testament to your competence in the field. Whatever.
Philipp Leitner - 12 Jul 2007 12:33 GMT
> Instead, make money off your ancillary expertise in the software, its
> internals, and the problem domain. Your talents in that area are
> scarce and rivalrous, so they make sense as private or metered goods.
> Charge for customization of someone's install of the software, or for
> support beyond basic bug-fixes and how-tos. Open a consultancy, with
> the software as testament to your competence in the field. Whatever.

This is only a valid business model under certain circumstances:
- the tool under discussion has to be something "enterprisey", since
only at least medium-sized companies pay for customized software,
support or consultants. If you wrote e.g. a RSS reader or anything
else that definitely targets the single end user you're out of luck.
- the tool has to be obscure / complex / buggy / ... enough so that
consultancy is even necessary. Again: if you have a well-written
little RSS reader it is  unlikely that enough questions arise that a
paid support is even necessary.
- you as the author have to be able and willing to dedicate a lot of
the time following into consulting and/or maintaining the software. If
you already have a day job you're unlikely to have enough spare time
that you can spend to follow this business model. Customization takes
time. So does maintaining and supporting an application.

Conclusion: I am definitely a friend of OSS, but the idea that seems
to go around that an OSS business model is the one and only way to
earn some money with software is just bogus.

And for the OP: I wouldn't care too much about crackers and key
generators. Unless your software /really/ catches on the problems
arising from these guys are marginal.

/philipp
Twisted - 13 Jul 2007 02:32 GMT
> - the tool under discussion has to be something "enterprisey", since
> only at least medium-sized companies pay for customized software,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> little RSS reader it is  unlikely that enough questions arise that a
> paid support is even necessary.

If it's something like a little RSS reader, there's no money to be
made off it anyway, certainly not in a competitive market if you play
fair. If there's no market for the ancillary expertise due to anyone
and his brother being able to do it, there's no market for the
software itself for the same reason. Someone will make something
compatible and sell it cheaper. Someone else will do it and make it
FOSS. You won't be able to compete on price OR quality in this case.
The reason to write such software is when it directly benefits your
own productivity through your own in-house use, and then there's no
reason to be stingy and not open-source it since you derive the
benefits of its direct use anyway, and releasing it encourages quid
pro quo (you may get nice free tools and not have to write them; you
might get bug fixes or suggestions from other users of such stuff
savvy enough to modify the code).

> - you as the author have to be able and willing to dedicate a lot of
> the time following into consulting and/or maintaining the software. If
> you already have a day job you're unlikely to have enough spare time
> that you can spend to follow this business model. Customization takes
> time. So does maintaining and supporting an application.

If you already have a day job you already have a steady paycheque and
no need to charge for the software.

> Conclusion: I am definitely a friend of OSS, but the idea that seems
> to go around that an OSS business model is the one and only way to
> earn some money with software is just bogus.

The only ways to earn money with software that depend on charging for
access to the software itself are by their nature coercive and
extortionate. They are also doomed in the long term because your
competitors can always undercut you on price without any loss in
quality. Microsoft is learning this lesson right now. They're reaching
for any legal bludgeon they can invent (software patents for example,
or a "trusted computing" mandate) to kill open source competitors by
criminalizing them, all because they cannot compete in a fair and open
market. Only aggressive marketing and questionable business practises
enabled them to become rich in the first place, that and a lack of
access to alternatives for most consumers for a long time before
widespread access to broadband developed in the industrialized parts
of the world.

> And for the OP: I wouldn't care too much about crackers and key
> generators. Unless your software /really/ catches on the problems
> arising from these guys are marginal.

Anybody using such wasn't ever going to pay for the software anyway.
Actually, scratch that -- some of those using such methods would never
pay no matter what. Making it harder might force them to use a
competitor's software but it won't get your hand into their pockets
successfully. On the other hand, some of those who crack it might
later pay, if they derive benefit from the software and decide it's
worth subsidizing its further development and maintenance. More than
those who just play with your crippled free version, who will just be
annoyed by random and arbitrary restrictions and have a generally
terrible user experience that will put them off ever sending you a
dime.

Why not make the full version free, but offer a registration
certificate or something for a certain amount of money? It may turn on
frivolous features of the software or just a personalized greeting or
something, or let you get early access to bugfix-test beta versions or
something. Plenty will just use the software and never send you a
dime, but they'd likely never have sent you a dime no matter what you
did. Others may gladly pay if they know it will finance further
development of the software, including some that never would have if
subjected to any sort of coercion or made to feel obligated to pay.

You could probably get away with giving the fully-functional version
for free and selling a snazzy "pro skin" even. This works for the
Limewire folks. (They also sell T-shirts. The "pro" version isn't
actually any faster than the free one, despite what they claim; it
just tends to make more redundant connections to hubs to make it
slightly more stable in connectivity perhaps.)

Oh there are lots of creative ways to make money without ticking off
your prospective customers, denying the use of your software to the
poor, or using threats, extortion, gratuitous cripplage, or any copy
protection crap that just adds bugs and subtracts features. Nobody
wants to pay for added bugs and fewer features! Outmoded "copyright"
business models just use the increasingly unenforceable copyright laws
as a crutch to lean on in a futile attempt to avoid the obligation to
innovate. It's red queen syndrome though -- you have to run faster
just to stay in the same place. If by some means (becoming a complete
fascist police state?) the US began to really successfully enforce
copyrights, it would just cause the US to rapidly fall behind other
countries, particularly China, which looks set to topple it and take
on the role of world superpower in the next few years *anyway*. If
they don't, copyright-reliant businesses within the US are quickly
outcompeted by innovative firms with other business models. It's the
whole protectionism-vs.-free-trade thing again, only with information
flow and services instead of physical trade goods. History repeating
itself in the usual manner when someone failed to learn from it. Free
trade won the last few rounds. Anyone want to bet against the proven
champ this game?
Oliver Wong - 13 Jul 2007 17:16 GMT
> The reason to write such software is when it directly benefits your
> own productivity through your own in-house use, and then there's no
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> might get bug fixes or suggestions from other users of such stuff
> savvy enough to modify the code).

   Feel free to accept them if they arrive, but don't *expect* bug fixes
or suggestions. Only the top 1% or so of open source project ever receive
outside help.

>> - you as the author have to be able and willing to dedicate a lot of
>> the time following into consulting and/or maintaining the software. If
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> If you already have a day job you already have a steady paycheque and
> no need to charge for the software.

   That's not necessarily true. Your day job might not be paying enough,
and yet it's the best you can get, and so you need to supplement it with a
second or third job. If programming software is a part of your skillset,
then there's no reason not to consider writing software for profit as one
of those second or third jobs.

>> Conclusion: I am definitely a friend of OSS, but the idea that seems
>> to go around that an OSS business model is the one and only way to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> competitors can always undercut you on price without any loss in
> quality.

Depends on your definition of "coercive and extortionate", I suppose. Take
the computer game industry, for example. Most games are one-shot deals.
You won't have enterprises buying support contracts. You won't have users
paying for support. You won't even have users expecting continuous updates
over the next few years of the product. There are some exceptions to this
(Blizzard, for example, semi-regularly releases updates to their game
Diablo), but most games are play-once-and-then-forget-about-forever.

Different games take different approaches to restricting access to the
software. Some uses virtual device drivers that take over your CD drive to
try to differentiate between original CDs and copied ones; others have you
enter a serial number which is then verified online; yet others just
release the game without any software copyprotection at all, relying on
the "honesty" of the Internet (or more cynically, on the guilt that might
be generated in pirates).

The latter of these, I would certainly not consider to be coercive nor
extortionate.

> Microsoft is learning this lesson right now. They're reaching
> for any legal bludgeon they can invent (software patents for example,
> or a "trusted computing" mandate) to kill open source competitors by
> criminalizing them, all because they cannot compete in a fair and open
> market.

It was recently fashionable to demonize Microsoft, such that a lot of
accusations thrown their way was unfair. I think that trend has died a
little bit, but I still see the occasional blogs with one entry saying
"Vista sucks" and followed by another entry saying "I've never tried Vista
and I never will".

First of all, anthropophormizing corporations is dangerous, because it
then becomes extremely tempting to assign emotions to them (e.g. fear,
jealousy, envy, anger, etc.) and then to try to make predictions about
their future behaviour based on what emotions they are supposedly
experiencing.

I think a much more accurate model is to think of corporations as a
perfectly rational utilitarian whose sole metric is profit. There's no
good vs evil, moral vs immoral issues to enter into the consideration of a
coporation's "mind". It's solely about what action can maximize profits.

Keeping that in mind makes it much easier to understand Microsoft's (or
any corporation's) actions. They break the law when the profit they gain
from doing so outweighs the penalties they'd pay. They embrace Open Source
when it's profitable to do so (Windows XP has some BSD licensed code in
it, for example), and they try to stiffle competitors of all form (open
source or otherwise) *when it is profitable to do so*. Honestly, I don't
think Microsoft is very concerned about losing the desktop market to
Linux, so they aren't spending much resource in fighting it there (the
reason being the expenses paid in "fighting" Linux will be greater than
profits from the marketshare regained). They might be more concerned with
Apache vs IIS, and so you do see a lot of marketing in that area (I see a
lot of banners citing IIS is better than Apache, for example).

To address the patents issue in particular, because of the way patent law
is set up, if you're a big company, you are essentially forced to horde up
on so called "defensive patents". It's a like a cold war, where none of
the big corporations sue each other, for fear of getting sued in return.
That's the way the rules were set up, and Microsoft (and other
corporations, like IBM, Sun, etc.) are just playing the smart strategy
according to those rules. Again, it's fallacious to think in terms of
"evil corporations hate our freedom, that's why they patent everything"
versus "acquiring patents is the action with the highest utility at this
point".

> Only aggressive marketing and questionable business practises
> enabled them to become rich in the first place, that and a lack of
> access to alternatives for most consumers for a long time before
> widespread access to broadband developed in the industrialized parts
> of the world.

   Drop the keyword "only" and I'll be in agreement with you.

>> And for the OP: I wouldn't care too much about crackers and key
>> generators. Unless your software /really/ catches on the problems
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> terrible user experience that will put them off ever sending you a
> dime.

   On the other hand, I know some people who had pirated Windows XP, but
are going to pay for Windows Vista simply because Vista is too much of a
pain to pirate. It's like Roedy said (and it echos a dogma in the security
industry as a whole): Perfect security is impossible. The goal isn't to
attain perfect security. The goal is to make it such that the least
painful solution is to just go ahead and pay for the software so that this
will be what all rational people (who always choose the least painful/most
pleasurable of all options) end up doing.

[snip some creative ideas for making money; I've no comments or arguments
against that]

   - Oliver
Twisted - 14 Jul 2007 05:28 GMT
>     That's not necessarily true. Your day job might not be paying enough,
> and yet it's the best you can get, and so you need to supplement it with a
> second or third job. If programming software is a part of your skillset,
> then there's no reason not to consider writing software for profit as one
> of those second or third jobs.

Hire out your programming expertise then. There is always work for
people with a talent for coding.

> Depends on your definition of "coercive and extortionate", I suppose.

My definition isn't unreasonable. It includes things like one party
interfering with a consensual transaction between a second party and a
third party, especially if there's a financial motive such as
preventing competition. (In this instance, the second party is letting
the third party examine an object the second party (legitimately)
possesses, and construct a duplicate of that object with their own raw
materials and time and on their own dime.)

> Take
> the computer game industry, for example. Most games are one-shot deals.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> (Blizzard, for example, semi-regularly releases updates to their game
> Diablo), but most games are play-once-and-then-forget-about-forever.

Well I can see a few options here that don't involve coercive
activities and can still make you money.
* Make it a multiplayer game. Give the game away. Open a pay service
for online play; playing through your service requires access to your
servers and that in turn costs you bandwidth and electricity and the
like; you can certainly meter this access and make money this way. Of
course, if third parties can't create compatible servers then you are
doing something anticompetitive and sneaky!
* Make a game for your own enjoyment. Your own future enjoyment of the
game is the "payment".
* Say you have a great game idea but need financing to create the
game. If enough money is pledged you'll make the game and give it
away. If not enough is pledged by a certain date you'll return the
money already received and won't make the game. This amounts to being
paid up front to write the code, so you don't lose money if it's
easily copied once it's released.
* Make arcade machines that are coin-operated, and to which only you
have the key to the coin-box. If the game's not otherwise available
it's admittedly a bit morally dodgy, but even if it is you'll make
money from machines in places where people have to sit around and wait
for a particular time or a number to come up, like airports and movie
theatre lobbies and suchlike. People often forget to bring their
Nintendo DS or a book or something ... and then you've got some of
their pocket change.
* Demo it to rich people until you sell one copy for a bazillion
bucks. Retire. Don't care if the rich guy then spreads copies around.
Some people have piles of money and nothing better to do with it than
be the first ever to do/have something.
* Give the game away. If it's any good, and especially if the source
code is publicly visible, you might get job offers. Even if game
companies no longer made any money selling copies of games this
wouldn't change, since someone might want a game made with particular
features and not have the skills themselves but have the money to hire
someone to make it for them; and since your proven skills with Java or
whatever are likely of broader use than just game making.
* Use the game as a loss leader to sell something else. A special case
of this is to sell access to one online service for multiplayer gaming
with this game; the game creates the whole market for such online
services, and you start one of them. As the game's maker you may be
able to make a better one more cheaply than a competitor could without
a lot of study of your game's code. More generally, the game might
become popular and you could sell related T-shirts, stuffed game-
character animals or game-character action figures, and other such
physical goods. The game could also contain paid product placements --
e.g. you could make a GTA clone and get Coke and Pepsi to bid for
which one's logo gets on a big billboard and all the vending machines
in the game world or something.
* There's the outright adware/spyware route too, but that's evil, not
to mention stupid since people will just strip that crap out and
spread the "cleaned" version around, and it will outcompete your
original.
* Make copies and sell them! If you don't do anything coercive,
obviously sooner or later other people will make copies and sell them,
and more will give copies away. Some will still prefer to buy from the
trusted original source, or to subsidize the possibility of addons or
new games from a proven good game-maker. Red Hat sells copies of Linux
on CD for $60 a pop, and makes money at it, even though anyone else
can do the same, one company started selling copies of Red Hat's
distro for $30 a pop, and lots of places have free downloads of Fedora
Core. Admittedly not a game, but it still proves you can make money
without restricting others from making copies and giving them away or
selling them.

> Different games take different approaches to restricting access to the
> software.

I hate all gratuitous restrictions on access. If I can pay the
marginal cost of reproduction of something I see no reason I should
not be permitted to have one if I want it, and a grave moral wrong in
withholding access to something for someone who can pay its marginal
cost. Worse, this type of thing involves by its very nature intrusions
and breaches of privacy, because party 1 is trying to impede certain
consensial transactions between parties 2 and 3, not merely to set the
terms of transactions between party 1 (themselves) and other parties.
The only way to do this effectively is to spy on parties 2 and 3 and
then intrude on them when they try to conduct a transaction you don't
like. If done in person, that's called eavesdropping, break-and-enter,
and assault where I come from.

If you really want to control access, you should not furnish copies at
all. Put your game on a server and charge for access to it. Secure the
server against being hacked. Without hacking, all someone can do is
play the game through the interface. Give away a thin client (most
likely a browser applet) which isn't of any use without what's on the
server. Just don't expect many users unless the game is very, very
good or membership is cheap and one fixed-sized payment buys you a
lifetime of access.

> Some uses virtual device drivers that take over your CD drive to
> try to differentiate between original CDs and copied ones; others have you
> enter a serial number which is then verified online

Evil and rude. VXDs being installed without the system administrator's
explicit knowledge and consent ought to be downright illegal, because
they can easily corrupt and crash the OS. Sony recently got into a
world of legal hurt over exactly this sort of BS, namely the infamous
XCP rootkit CDs. Gratuitously requiring a net connection is nearly as
bad, and makes the software stink of spyware. More generally, all such
schemes add a bug-prone component whose very INTENT is to make the
software gratuitously fail sometimes, and any bug in which is sure to
do so. Worse everyone reporting such bugs gets treated with scorn and
suspicion. Treating your customers like criminals and their hardware
and OS configuration like your personal property is a sure way to lose
friends and influence people!

> It was recently fashionable to demonize Microsoft, such that a lot of
> accusations thrown their way was unfair. I think that trend has died a
> little bit, but I still see the occasional blogs with one entry saying
> "Vista sucks" and followed by another entry saying "I've never tried Vista
> and I never will".

This probably has a lot to do with the fact that Vista sucks, and I've
never tried Vista and I never will.

Seriously. It does suck.

> First of all, anthropophormizing corporations is dangerous, because it
> then becomes extremely tempting to assign emotions to them (e.g. fear,
> jealousy, envy, anger, etc.) and then to try to make predictions about
> their future behaviour based on what emotions they are supposedly
> experiencing.

No, it makes more sense to regard them as emotionless, cold-blooded
sociopaths, since that is what all large corporations are. With IQs in
the mid-to-upper forties, seeing as they're almost invariably less
than the sum of their parts.

Note that I didn't anthropomorphize Microsoft in the original post
anyway. I said they couldn't compete and decided to try to use their
money to buy laws to effectively outlaw competing with Microsoft. This
much is provable fact (they can't compete -> observe Linux server-side
market share eating Windows alive; ditto Apache vs. IIS and JSP vs.
ASP; law-buying, well, just look, the campaign donations are a matter
of public record. No I don't know the URL offhand.)

> I think a much more accurate model is to think of corporations as a
> perfectly rational utilitarian whose sole metric is profit.

This fails to explain Arthur Andersen and Enron, Worldcom, Sony's
brain-dead rootkit shenanigans, and lots of other things. Your
"perfectly rational utilitarian" has an IQ inversely proportional to
the CEO's annual salary. I doubt they actually are perfectly rational.
A rational RIAA would embrace music sharing and monetize music some
new way. In practise, companies often show some degree of dominance by
the will of one or a few people exhibiting all the usual human
foibles. Cartels more so than individual companies; they can be
downright schizophrenic and for obvious reasons. Ultimately however
they often lust for power and control, and obviously so, regardless of
whether this is rational.

They also lack a key element of sanity -- satiability. Corporations
are, by and large, insatiable. The more they have the more they want.
It's not enough to have 47% of the market, 400 full-time paid
employees with full benefits, and enough money coming in to pay the
salaries and expenses; they want 57% of the market and to expand to
500 employees and rake in money faster than they spend it, so they can
panel the CEO's office in oak and he can cut down from three days
working a week to two and spend another day a week playing golf at
expensive Augusta.

> There's no good vs evil, moral vs immoral issues to enter into the consideration of a
> coporation's "mind". It's solely about what action can maximize profits.

Explain irrational decisions like outsourcing all of your support to
Brokenenglishstan, with the result being customers abandon you in
droves? In fact, the guys that do this stuff are not doing it for the
benefit of the company's long term profits. They do it to get short
term profits or show decreased expenses in their own department, so
they get promoted and more stock options, so they can buy when the
next product is shipping and the stock jumps, sell right after, and
retire, leaving someone else holding the bag when the customer neglect
comes back to bite the company in the butt.

Companies show some tendency to maximize short-term revenues, about
three or four months out (roughly one fiscal quarter, which cannot be
coincidence), and damn the long term consequences of their behavior.
They act like spoiled children that have not learned empathy, more
than anything else -- little sociopaths with no more than a vague
sense of any time scale beyond a few months, and impulsively grasping
for shiny baubles and smacking at anything they don't like.

> (I see a lot of banners citing IIS is better than Apache, for example).

I don't. Must be Firefox's adblock. You really should get that plugin.

> To address the patents issue in particular, because of the way patent law
> is set up, if you're a big company, you are essentially forced to horde up
> on so called "defensive patents". It's a like a cold war, where none of
> the big corporations sue each other, for fear of getting sued in return.

And they like it just fine that way, since they can all nuke any small
upstart that threatens to horn in on their turf, especially one that
looks like it won't play by the unspoken rules of the existing cartel.

You know the sort of unspoken rules they have. Like that they will
spend no money fixing bugs except security holes. Or they will all
outsource their support simultaneously and anyone who reneges by
keeping support local to grow its market share by not pissing off its
customers as much as its rivals will get punished in some way. There's
all kinds of collusion like this, though nothing easy to prove.

> That's the way the rules were set up, and Microsoft (and other
> corporations, like IBM, Sun, etc.) are just playing the smart strategy
> according to those rules. Again, it's fallacious to think in terms of
> "evil corporations hate our freedom, that's why they patent everything"
> versus "acquiring patents is the action with the highest utility at this
> point".

Either way, such patents do more harm than good. I think all so-called
IP law does more harm than good, save perhaps trademark law.

>     On the other hand, I know some people who had pirated Windows XP, but
> are going to pay for Windows Vista simply because Vista is too much of a
> pain to pirate.

Fools -- they already have a free copy of XP and are willing to pay
for a downgrade?

> [snip some creative ideas for making money; I've no comments or arguments
> against that]

They prove copyright law unnecessary to "promoting the progress of
science and the useful arts", which in my opinion leaves it at the
mercy of the First Amendment protecting freedom of speech and of the
press.
Philipp Leitner - 14 Jul 2007 09:46 GMT
Honestly, you have some strange ideas of what is 'coercive'. If I
coded some app and want to see a few bucks in return for people using
it ... how can that be coercive? If I plant potatoes and want people
to pay for them before eating them, do I "restrict people's access to
my potatoes"?

> Well I can see a few options here that don't involve coercive
> activities and can still make you money.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> course, if third parties can't create compatible servers then you are
> doing something anticompetitive and sneaky!
[snipped a lot more ideas]

All of those ideas are possibilities, but all of them will only work
out only in certain circumstances (do you see a big company like IA
produce games 'for the benefit of their own pleasure'?). I cannot see
why you are so strictly against the simple business model of 'we
produce something, you pay to use it'. And no, I really do not think
that everybody has the legal conception that such a business model is
evil and coercive (as you seem to imply). I think this is just the
most natural business model that can come around.

/philipp
Twisted - 14 Jul 2007 22:37 GMT
> Honestly, you have some strange ideas of what is 'coercive'. If I
> coded some app and want to see a few bucks in return for people using
> it ... how can that be coercive? If I plant potatoes and want people
> to pay for them before eating them, do I "restrict people's access to
> my potatoes"?

I don't see anything coercive about those. Not giving people copies of
your app if they don't pay, or your potatoes if they don't pay. It's
your right not to give them to someone if you don't want to, or to
want something in return.

Where it gets coercive is if you insist that the guy with the potatoes
must eat them and cannot plant the "eyes" off one to grow his own,
simply because then he might not buy more from you, and you want to
force him to only ever do business with you. (An agribusiness called
Monsanto has raised a lot of farmers' hackles by doing almost exactly
this.) Likewise if you don't let the guy with a copy of your app
"grow" more copies.

Then you aren't just setting the terms of one transaction with you as
a participant; you now seek to govern the buyer's use of what they
purchased and limit in various ways after the fact. THAT is coercive.
In fact, it abrogates some of the buyer's property rights in what they
bought.

In the case of copy-protection schemes, they all tend to be
ineffective against a determined adversary, and they all tend to
compromise users' property rights in the computing hardware they own
as well as the copies of software they bought. They may not be able to
back up the software, for example, or effectively restricted from
upgrading their hardware (MS Vista refuses to work without buying a
new copy if you replace the mobo, from some reports I've read).

> All of those ideas are possibilities, but all of them will only work
> out only in certain circumstances (do you see a big company like IA
> produce games 'for the benefit of their own pleasure'?).

I'm not claiming they are universally applicable. In any given
situation a few of them will be options and most of them won't be, I
expect.

> I cannot see why you are so strictly against the simple business model of 'we
> produce something, you pay to use it'.

I'm not. Keep it on a server you have to pay to access and I won't
complain of coercion. I won't use it, but I don't see other peoples'
property rights being trampled on in this case, nor their freedom of
speech.

I also see no problem with selling disks with copies. It's trying to
control someone's use of what they purchased down the line that
bothers me. I wouldn't want to buy a hammer and get told by the
manufacturer that they would spy on me and confiscate the hammer if I
ever used it to hit nails of a brand they didn't like, or told I
couldn't lend it or sell it, or told I was required to check in with
them for permission every time I wanted to hit something with it.
Software with copy protection and especially with any kind of "product
activation" is exactly like this hypothetical hammer and its ham-
handed manufacturer. And if I bought a hammer and it came with a
shrink-wrapped notice claiming that by using the hammer I "agreed" to
never use it on nails bigger than 3" long, or whatever or whatever,
I'd ignore the notice as not any kind of binding agreement at all. I
don't recall entering into any kind of negotiations with the
manufacturer after all, only the retailer at point-of-sale, and I
certainly don't recall signing anything. If it also said the
manufacturer expressly disclaimed all warranties even fitness-for-
purpose I'd take it back to the store and insist on a refund.
Unfortunately there's not as much choice with software as with hammers
-- just about everybody disclaims fitness-for-purpose, amazingly.

> And no, I really do not think
> that everybody has the legal conception that such a business model is
> evil and coercive (as you seem to imply). I think this is just the
> most natural business model that can come around.

If you mean a business model of "hand me that twenty and I'll hand you
this valuable object" I agree. If you mean any business model that
depends on forcibly restricting the customer's use of their purchase
after the sale has been completed, then I disagree; that is about as
unnatural as things can get. In fact, it undermines the twin pillars
of free-market democracy, one being freedom of speech and transaction
and the other being strong guarantees of property rights. Undermining
these is damn dangerous. And treating information (other than
particular copies, separately) as if it were "property" and
considering any use you don't like (whether or not it takes a copy
away from you) as "theft" is a perversion of every natural law.
Oliver Wong - 16 Jul 2007 19:37 GMT
>>     That's not necessarily true. Your day job might not be paying
>> enough,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Hire out your programming expertise then. There is always work for
> people with a talent for coding.

   Yes, that's exactly what I was suggesting, and seems to run counter to
your "let's give all software away for free" philosophy.

>> Depends on your definition of "coercive and extortionate", I suppose.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> possesses, and construct a duplicate of that object with their own raw
> materials and time and on their own dime.)

   It's the *other* stuff that your definition includes which worries me.
Stuff like charging money for the right to use a specific software
program, for example.

>> Take
>> the computer game industry, for example. Most games are one-shot deals.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> course, if third parties can't create compatible servers then you are
> doing something anticompetitive and sneaky!

   The success rate for this business model seems to be much lower than
the traditional model.

> * Make a game for your own enjoyment. Your own future enjoyment of the
> game is the "payment".

   The success rate for this business model seems to be much lower than
the traditional model.

> * Say you have a great game idea but need financing to create the
> game. If enough money is pledged you'll make the game and give it
> away. If not enough is pledged by a certain date you'll return the
> money already received and won't make the game. This amounts to being
> paid up front to write the code, so you don't lose money if it's
> easily copied once it's released.

   The success rate for this business models seems to be much lower than
the traditional model.

   And so on... hopefully, you see the pattern here. Recall once again
that businesses are about making money, and given two business models, one
which is more successful than the other, it seems to make sense that most
businesses would pick the more successful one.

   I mean, it's great that you're able to come up with alternative
business models. But the business people aren't really *looking* for
alternative business models. They're plenty happy with the model they
currently have (the one of selling games with copy protection). *You're*
the one who's unhappy with that model, and I'm not sure you have enough
clout to sway the entire game industry.

   You could try voting with your wallet and boycotting games with
copyprotection. But for what it's worth, there exists games out there for
which I consider the copyprotection scheme sufficiently unobtrusive that
they have a minimal impact on my purchasing decision. Therefore, I am
likely in the foreseeable future to continue buying games that have copy
protection on them. And I suspect there is a significant market who will
continue to do so as well.

   I wanted to highlight one particular business model you mentioned:

> * Demo it to rich people until you sell one copy for a bazillion
> bucks. Retire. Don't care if the rich guy then spreads copies around.
> Some people have piles of money and nothing better to do with it than
> be the first ever to do/have something.

   This business model is laughably ridiculous. It's comparable to having
"Win the lottery" as your retirement plan. By including this within your
list, you've weakened the credibility of the rest of the list. IMHO,
anyway. Go for quality of ideas, not quantity.

>> Different games take different approaches to restricting access to the
>> software.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> withholding access to something for someone who can pay its marginal
> cost.

   Everybody has a different code of ethics and moral compass. To me, if
someone tells me "I'll only let you have A if you promise not to do B",
and you say "Fine", and then take the A, and then later go ahead and do B,
you have committed a "grave moral wrong" in my eyes:

   "I'll only tell you this secret piece of information (which happens to
take the form of a series of zeros and ones) if you promise not to tell
anyone else."
   "Ok, I promise."
   "Here it is (binaries for a video game)."
   "(torrents it and shares it with the world)."
   "Hey, what give? You promised you wouldn't tell anyone else my
secret."
   "Information wants to be free! You're oppressing me!"

[...]

>> It was recently fashionable to demonize Microsoft, such that a lot of
>> accusations thrown their way was unfair. I think that trend has died a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Seriously. It does suck.

   Maybe it was too subtle, but the implied question was "How could you
possibly make an informed decision about whether a piece of software sucks
or not without having actually ever tried it?"

>> First of all, anthropophormizing corporations is dangerous, because it
>> then becomes extremely tempting to assign emotions to them (e.g. fear,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> No, it makes more sense to regard them as emotionless, cold-blooded
> sociopaths, since that is what all large corporations are.

   You use the keyword "No", but you seem to be agreeing with me. What do
you *really* mean?

[...]
> I said they couldn't compete and decided to try to use their
> money to buy laws to effectively outlaw competing with Microsoft. This
> much is provable fact (they can't compete -> observe Linux server-side
> market share eating Windows alive; ditto Apache vs. IIS and JSP vs.
> ASP;

   Your evidence doesn't support your assertion: "Compete" doesn't mean
"Win". Maybe they are simply competing and losing.

>> I think a much more accurate model is to think of corporations as a
>> perfectly rational utilitarian whose sole metric is profit.
>
> This fails to explain Arthur Andersen and Enron, Worldcom, Sony's
> brain-dead rootkit shenanigans, and lots of other things.

   It wasn't intended to explain those things. But if you want an easy to
grasp explanation: the corporations don't have perfect information. You
can be perfectly rational, but make the in-hindsight-wrong-decision if you
don't have perfect information.

> Your
> "perfectly rational utilitarian" has an IQ inversely proportional to
> the CEO's annual salary. I doubt they actually are perfectly rational.

   Note that I didn't say they were perfectly rational. I said that
thinking of corporations as "a perfectly rational utilitarian" is a "much
more accurate model" than an emotional anthromorphic entity who bases its
decision mostly on rage, envy, fear, etc.

> A rational RIAA would embrace music sharing and monetize music some
> new way.

   I suspect it's actually vastly more complicated than that, but I'm too
lazy to explain all the details right now, so I won't be surprised if you
continue to believe this.

> In practise, companies often show some degree of dominance by
> the will of one or a few people exhibiting all the usual human
> foibles. Cartels more so than individual companies; they can be
> downright schizophrenic and for obvious reasons. Ultimately however
> they often lust for power and control, and obviously so, regardless of
> whether this is rational.

   I think you have a different definition of rational than I do. If they
lust for power and control (or to phrase it more formally, if their metric
is power and control), then doing whatever you can to maximize power and
control is the most rational thing a utilitarian can do.

   The problem, I think, is that you're applying your metrics to the
actions of another entity with a different set of metrics, and they aren't
maximize their score in your game, and so you suspect they must be
irrational, when actually they may be maximizing their score in their own
game.

[...]

>> There's no good vs evil, moral vs immoral issues to enter into the
>> consideration of a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Brokenenglishstan, with the result being customers abandon you in
> droves?

   (1) Profits exceed costs.
   (2) Imperfect information.

> In fact, the guys that do this stuff are not doing it for the
> benefit of the company's long term profits. They do it to get short
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> retire, leaving someone else holding the bag when the customer neglect
> comes back to bite the company in the butt.

   Are you implying that this is irrational behaviour, given the metrics
that the companies are applying to themselves?

> Companies show some tendency to maximize short-term revenues, about
> three or four months out (roughly one fiscal quarter, which cannot be
> coincidence), and damn the long term consequences of their behavior.

   Again, are you implying that this is irrational behaviour, given the
metrics that the companies are applying to themselves?

> They act like spoiled children that have not learned empathy, more
> than anything else -- little sociopaths with no more than a vague
> sense of any time scale beyond a few months, and impulsively grasping
> for shiny baubles and smacking at anything they don't like.

   Recall my warning:

<quote>
anthropophormizing corporations is dangerous, because it
then becomes extremely tempting to assign emotions to them (e.g. fear,
jealousy, envy, anger, etc.) and then to try to make predictions about
their future behaviour based on what emotions they are supposedly
experiencing.
</quote>

>> (I see a lot of banners citing IIS is better than Apache, for example).
>
> I don't. Must be Firefox's adblock. You really should get that plugin.

   You seem to be under the assumption that I do not wish to see such
advertisements. On the contrary, this particular ad allowed me to be more
informed about the real world than you. ;)

[...]
>>     On the other hand, I know some people who had pirated Windows XP,
>> but
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Fools -- they already have a free copy of XP and are willing to pay
> for a downgrade?

   Your question is based on false premise, and thus is nonsensical.
Here's the information I'm guessing you want:

   My friends already have a free copy of XP and are willing to pay to
replace it with Vista.

   - Oliver
Roedy Green - 16 Jul 2007 21:46 GMT
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:37:01 -0400, "Oliver Wong"
<owong@castortech.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
said :

>    I mean, it's great that you're able to come up with alternative
>business models.

My thinking is that software should be rented.  You don't give all
your money up front.  The vendor then spends time doing things that
make existing users happy rather than silly flash to sell naive new
users. It evens the flow of revenue for both parties.

See http://mindprod.com/project/prebrandedsoftwarerental.html
Signature

Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com

Jeff Higgins - 16 Jul 2007 22:14 GMT
> My thinking is that software should be rented.  You don't give all
> your money up front.  The vendor then spends time doing things that
> make existing users happy rather than silly flash to sell naive new
> users. It evens the flow of revenue for both parties.

Yes[] No[X] Sounds like a good idea, but consider software subscriptions,
support contracts, service contracts, etc. Ends up the same old thing,
silly flash each period, bugs not fixed, and enough rent paid on my part
to lease a houseboat on the riviera for some sales exec.
Twisted - 17 Jul 2007 07:35 GMT
> > My thinking is that software should be rented.  You don't give all
> > your money up front.  The vendor then spends time doing things that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> silly flash each period, bugs not fixed, and enough rent paid on my part
> to lease a houseboat on the riviera for some sales exec.

Seconded. Software "rental" or "as a service" is a euphemism for
software "serfdom": taking our functionality away from us and renting
it back to us. The existing gratuitous upgrade treadmills or (in
business settings) mandatory "maintenance" plans are bad enough. All
are clearly extortionate behavior by a company powerful enough to game
the system in whatever ways maximize its own revenues at everyone
else's expense. Robber barons.
Roedy Green - 17 Jul 2007 08:02 GMT
>Seconded. Software "rental" or "as a service" is a euphemism for
>software "serfdom"

I think you have it backwards. Once a vendor has all your money he can
laugh at you.  He can sell you crap that does not work at all.  With
rental, after 2 months you can leave having given him only a fraction
of the dough he would get had he delivered.

The other advantage is the vendor keeps all his customers up to date.
He does not need to worry about supporting old code.  he can update as
often as he pleases to fix bugs quickly.
Signature

Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com

Twisted - 17 Jul 2007 09:51 GMT
On Jul 17, 3:02 am, Roedy Green <see_webs...@mindprod.com.invalid>
wrote:

> >Seconded. Software "rental" or "as a service" is a euphemism for
> >software "serfdom"
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> rental, after 2 months you can leave having given him only a fraction
> of the dough he would get had he delivered.

Wrong. With the subscription, he can laugh all the way to the bank.
Maybe he's locked you into an N-year contract. Maybe he simply has a
monopoly on the software and nobody else's is remotely compatible.
Most likely your data is on his servers instead of your computer, and
he can dictate terms by holding this data hostage.

Not to mention, right now if you want to word process, you pay $X up
front and then can word process to your hearts' content for the rest
of your life for only the costs of electricity and keeping the
hardware maintained. With your vaunted subscription model, you have to
pay $X over and over and over again or the software stops working.
After some point in time you've paid far more money than in the non-
subscription scenario but you're no better off. Continuing to use the
software doesn't cost the software vendor anything, unlike continuing
to use electricity which costs the hydro company, yet you're being
billed as if it's a utility whose "consumption" somehow actually is
consuming something other than electricity. This simply doesn't make
any sense! It's extortion, pure and simple.

"Rent-to-own" where after you've paid the original full purchase price
you "own" it and don't need to pay any more except to get a whole new
version is better, and arguably better than the current system where
you pay up-front.

Better yet is just to disallow software merchants disclaiming "fitness
for purpose".

Best of all is to set information free and charge for things that are
genuinely scarce.

> The other advantage is the vendor keeps all his customers up to date.

Yes, a very big advantage for the vendor. Not for the customers, of
course. Customers of course get this experience:
* New bugs appear as if by magic and they can't just sit at a version
they can use and whose bugs they're used to working around.
* Features disappear or tell you one day you now have to pay extra to
use them.
* DRM components are updated, which invariably makes things worse
rather than better for consumers.
* And so forth.

Forced updates and "subscription models" have some prototypes we can
examine:
* Google Groups. The interface and bugs keep changing. Bugs and issues
don't get fixed often and it's not possible to get ahold of the
developers to report stuff or get help.
* Intuit's upgrade treadmill basically makes its tax-preparation and
accounting software into "subscription" software. There are numerous
reports of former functionality disappearing or becoming "premium"
stuff that they demand extra money for you to use.
* Subscription TV services such as satellite companies drop channels
you can only get back by paying more each month than you used to.
(While their costs are no doubt actually going *down* over time.) They
frequently rearrange channels or otherwise gratuitously scramble your
favorite lists into unusability every couple of months.
* Prices keep jacking up and up on both of the above items that aren't
free.
* Apple's iTunes DRM keeps changing. Upgrading is apparently mandatory
for some things to keep working, from all accounts, making it
essentially a subscription, so there's no escape from the random and
arbitrary limits on song-burning, playlist-building, and other things
gradually contracting, from 7 of something down to 5 and then 4, and
things of that nature.
* There are numerous well-documented examples of automatic updates to
anti-virus subscriptions generating new bugs, false positives, or
otherwise corrupting things, and often expiring something so that you
have to pay for a more expensive version, instead of just paying the
existing subscription.
* Microsoft has pushed a nefarious Windows update, "Windows Genuine
Advantage Notification", by deceptively putting it into the so-called
"critical" updates, which are supposed to only be security patches.
Windows Genuine Advantage was made outright mandatory but didn't do
much harm to most users of Windows XP. However, those who downloaded
the "Notification" update and installed it, which would supposedly
just tell them whether or not their XP was genuine (what the existing
WGA already was determining and reporting to Microsoft when you used
Windows Update), found that in fact it would classify a percentage of
installations as "pirated" basically at random, including known
legitimate ones. In fact, the "Notification" was nothing of the sort;
it was a booby-trap that would cause WGA to fail and XP to demand
reactivation on a random percentage of the infected machines. Of
course, reactivation of XP has suddenly become curiously difficult
right around the time of the big Vista roll-out ... it's notable that
Microsoft continues to push the WGAN "security patch" at those users
like myself that have refused to install it, and that if you "hide"
the update in the Windows Update Web site interface, this particular
one periodically unhides itself. If you're not wary, the automatic
update tray thingie will download it and try to install it soon after
that happens if you don't go and rehide it. (Needless to say, I've
long since turned off automatic installation of updates. I review the
list when it says there are new updates and it's bogus fairly often.
Besides the bogus WGAN "security patch" one update, cryptically named
"917953", repeatedly shows up as new after it's been installed. In
fact, I install it again every time there's other patches than just
that one showing up new, and after a couple of reboots it again shows
up as if it were brand new! It does so periodically every few days
until the next batch of updates. This has been the case for more than
a year now. So I manage the update process manually, or my computer
would be rebooting itself every day or two due to "917953" if it
worked at all after being infected with WGA "notification".)

Actually, I guess WGA "notification" *is* a security patch of a sort.
It just doesn't provide any security for the user's computer (rather
the opposite, as it's more vulnerable to requiring reactivation, which
is bad). Rather, it is a "critical security patch" for Microsoft's
cash flow, and particularly the less-than-stellar sales of Vista...

So, does any of the above sound like anything you'd want becoming more
widespread than it already is? Oh, I forgot, you're apparently
planning to be a vendor of such "services", which means you'd be
laughing all the way to the bank. So I guess your answer would be
"yes".

I know what mine is.
Roedy Green - 17 Jul 2007 21:00 GMT
>Wrong. With the subscription, he can laugh all the way to the bank.
>Maybe he's locked you into an N-year contract.

Purchasing is  100 year contract with a guarantee the product will
fail.

The whole point of rental is to avoid locking in.  In any system I
have seen the worst you are on the hook for is one year.
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Roedy Green - 17 Jul 2007 23:24 GMT
>Wrong. With the subscription, he can laugh all the way to the bank.
>Maybe he's locked you into an N-year contract.

One problem with buying is you don't know how long your software will
run. The vendor is under no obligation to keep it working after he
gets your money.  I have an expensive copy of TopStyle gathering dust
that won't work under vista.

When rental, it is very clear just how long your program will continue
to work.

What really burns me is vendors who try to SELL me an upgrade to fix
BUGS.  He should be paying ME to apologise!

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The Java Glossary
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Twisted - 19 Jul 2007 11:40 GMT
On Jul 17, 6:24 pm, Roedy Green <see_webs...@mindprod.com.invalid>
wrote:

> >Wrong. With the subscription, he can laugh all the way to the bank.
> >Maybe he's locked you into an N-year contract.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> When rental, it is very clear just how long your program will continue
> to work.

This is ludicrous.

You buy, and it works forever, assuming you don't change or upgrade
the hardware or OS too much. It's not like a car; it shouldn't "wear
out" unless deliberately timebombed by the author, in which case it
should be avoided in favor of the competition anyway.

You rent, and it only works until you stop paying.

In effect, you buy and you pay once, or maybe infrequently when a new
version is released and you can't avoid upgrading perhaps because only
the new version works on MS Windows Pista or some such reason.

You rent and you pay every goddamn month all over again.

Also, you buy and when the vendor inevitably stops supporting the
product, you can still continue to use it although you can't expect
there to be any further updates for compatibility, so eventually as
you move on with your hardware and OS it will die, but it will last
years first.

You rent and when the vendor inevitably stops supporting the product
it instantly stops working, or lasts at most one more month.

And of course, you use FOSS you can pay as little as zilch, and there
is no single vendor who if they stop supporting the product they cause
the product to no longer be supported at all. Vendors that want money
will have support contracts you can sign up for IF YOU WANT TO or need
it because your use is mission-critical. FOSS vendors with pay support
contracts on offer are far nicer and more honest than anyone selling
"software as a service". For one thing, you can use the software as
much and as long as you want to without paying, though without vendor
support. If you want vendor support you can pay for it. If the vendor
goes under or quits supporting it you can likely find ANOTHER company
offering support, instead of being up the creek. You don't have to
change to a different program to continue to have support, and pay for
the new program, and deal with migrating data, retraining users, and
all of those additional hassles, which are also an expense in a
business context. If the worst comes to the worst, and it's mission
critical for you, has no known alternatives that are good substitutes
for your usage, and no longer has any vendors providing support at
all, you can hire a few geeks to provide your own in-house support
because you have (or should have) the full unobfuscated source code
and low-level documentation! FOSS is therefore especially important if
you're a business user, because a huge amount of risk and uncertainty
with regular commercial software, which gets worse with "rental"
software like you advocate, simply disappears with FOSS.

I know which gives the most value for the money, and which the least.

If you don't, or you're simply wrong, well, I guess that's just your
tough luck. :P
Roedy Green - 22 Jul 2007 00:23 GMT
>You buy, and it works forever, assuming you don't change or upgrade
>the hardware or OS too much

That's the theory, but in practice every few weeks Microsoft upgrades
your OS.. At any point they could introduce an incompatibility.

I do hardware upgrades of some sort at least once a year.  So that
gives me LESS of a guarantee than if I rented the software for a year.

The problem is:

1. there is no guarantee the software will work when you buy. The
assumption is, once you have the executable, if you claim not to like
it, you are lying.

2. there in no guarantee it will continue to work, particularly
through a hardware or OS upgrade.

With renting, we are agreeing the software will work for a given
period of time.  The agreement can be cancelled, and the program made
to stop working.  During that time I have access to all the bug fixes.
My costs are laid out in advance.  

As I said before, the most outrageous practice is to make me pay for
an upgrade to get a bug fixed.   That is like making you pay extra for
a defective light bulb.
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The Java Glossary
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Twisted - 22 Jul 2007 11:08 GMT
On Jul 21, 7:23 pm, Roedy Green <see_webs...@mindprod.com.invalid>
wrote:

> >You buy, and it works forever, assuming you don't change or upgrade
> >the hardware or OS too much
>
> That's the theory, but in practice every few weeks Microsoft upgrades
> your OS.. At any point they could introduce an incompatibility.

And in practise, how often does that actually happen? Here's a hint:
in all the years I've been using WinXP I've not had an MS update break
any third-party software seriously. If worse comes to worst you roll
back the update or use System Restore and freeze at that patch level,
if the third-party app is mission-critical and there's no update
available for it.

Software as a "rental" won't help this. You'd still be stuck until the
software vendor fixed it. You wouldn't be able to avoid or roll back
the problem update either. More generally you'd have much less control
over your hardware and much less freedom to administer your machine as
you wished; more decisions would be made for you by vendors that have
ulterior motives. They will make gratuitous changes that force their
hands deeper into your pockets once they have that level of control,
because the few existing examples actually do.

> 1. there is no guarantee the software will work when you buy. The
> assumption is, once you have the executable, if you claim not to like
> it, you are lying.

And a rental would not also have no warranty and no representations of
fitness-for-purpose? In a dream world maybe.

> 2. there in no guarantee it will continue to work, particularly
> through a hardware or OS upgrade.

And a rental company would never dream of screwing its users over by
just up and closing up shop one day? It would never push a buggy
update at its users that was a showstopper? Yeah right. At least with
normal software, if they ship a buggy update, the first users to get
burned by it warn everyone else and the rest don't install that
update. In your dream world, they have no choice -- instead of being
able to avoid the buggy update, all they can do is treat the warning
as a tornado warning and back up everything and hunker down until it's
over and the damage is done. Assuming they can back up anything,
because the data may not be really under their control anymore!

> With renting, we are agreeing the software will work for a given
> period of time.

Are we? I've never seen any software company agree that software will
work. Ever. I don't expect that to change anytime soon either.

> The agreement can be cancelled, and the program made
> to stop working.  During that time I have access to all the bug fixes.
> My costs are laid out in advance.

Why not let you keep using it, but not get updates? That doesn't cost
them anything. It's pure greed!

> As I said before, the most outrageous practice is to make me pay for
> an upgrade to get a bug fixed.   That is like making you pay extra for
> a defective light bulb.

Well, the way I see it, software "rental" means you pay every month
for a bug to get fixed EVEN WHEN THERE WERE NO BUGS FIXED THAT MONTH
instead of only when there actually were bugs fixed. I don't see that
as being an advantage to anyone except the vendor.

But then I already know where your sympathies lie. You're
contemplating being such a vendor, not being one of the hapless users
screwed by such a vendor, and that is why you are pushing something
that would harm 99.99% of the population and benefit only 0.01%.
Roedy Green - 24 Jul 2007 08:38 GMT
>And in practise, how often does that actually happen? Here's a hint:
>in all the years I've been using WinXP I've not had an MS update break
>any third-party software seriously

I have Vista.  
help in most programs stopped working.
Topstyle stopped entirely.
TweakDun stopped working
The low level access to CMOS, the floppy and the hard disk in turned
off to DOS emulation.
4NT blacks the screen if I make an error.
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The Java Glossary
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nebulous99@gmail.com - 25 Jul 2007 06:14 GMT
On Jul 24, 3:38 am, Roedy Green <see_webs...@mindprod.com.invalid>
wrote:

> >And in practise, how often does that actually happen? Here's a hint:
> >in all the years I've been using WinXP I've not had an MS update break
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> off to DOS emulation.
> 4NT blacks the screen if I make an error.

That's because you were daft enough to install Vista.

I've never had anything of the sort happen simply from keeping XP up
to date.

Vista is a completely new and different product, not merely an update,
and it's made something happen that once was thought impossible:
Windows ME stopping being the worst operating system ever widely
distributed to consumers. It is now merely the SECOND-worst.
Roedy Green - 08 Aug 2007 01:33 GMT
>That's because you were daft enough to install Vista.

Not quite. It's because I was daft enough to buy
a new machine which gives you no choice in OS.
There are no new machines being shipped with XP
any more in my neck of the woods.
The only alternatives I can think of would be:
1. wait a year to buy the new machine and hope Vista is more mature.
2. wait a year to save up the $450 for a free-standing copy of XP.
3. toss my investment in Windows software, and writing code
for Windows customers, retire the windows-specific parts
of my website and start afresh with Linux.
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The Java Glossary
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~kurt - 08 Aug 2007 02:53 GMT
> Not quite. It's because I was daft enough to buy
> a new machine which gives you no choice in OS.
> There are no new machines being shipped with XP
> any more in my neck of the woods.

In the US, you can still order a Dell with XP.  They got enough complaints
that they decided to listen.

In the stores - everything is Vista.  I think I am going to once again build
a machine since mine is getting a little long in the tooth.

- Kurt
Oliver Wong - 24 Jul 2007 18:04 GMT
> With renting, we are agreeing the software will work for a given
> period of time.  The agreement can be cancelled, and the program made
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> an upgrade to get a bug fixed.   That is like making you pay extra for
> a defective light bulb.

   Apparently, Microsoft wants to get into the software-renting business,
with Windows 7 (the successor to Vista):
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070722-2010-a-windows-7-odyssey.html

   - Oliver
nebulous99@gmail.com - 25 Jul 2007 06:33 GMT
>     Apparently, Microsoft wants to get into the software-renting business,
> with Windows 7 (the successor to Vista):http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070722-2010-a-windows-7-odysse...

Well, that tears it. In another decade or so WinME will be only the
THIRD worst consumer OS ever!

I have no intention of ever even getting Vista, let alone this
proposed even-worse (P)OS.

I fully intend to resurrect an aging machine, rescue any remaining
data on it not long since copied, and turn it into a Ubuntu box
someday soon. If MS keeps up with this and copyright takes long enough
to up and die, I'll probably have to eventually migrate to using it or
something similar as my primary OS and relegate MS stuff to just a
games machine at some point. Or give up on games <sigh>...
Mark Rafn - 19 Jul 2007 16:20 GMT
>>Wrong. With the subscription, he can laugh all the way to the bank.
>>Maybe he's locked you into an N-year contract.

>One problem with buying is you don't know how long your software will
>run. The vendor is under no obligation to keep it working after he
>gets your money.

The vendor is under very little obligation at all.  With the vast majority of
software, though, it will run forever, but your needs will change sooner or
later.

>I have an expensive copy of TopStyle gathering dust
>that won't work under vista.

Sure.  It didn't stop working under vista; it NEVER worked under vista.
It'll run forever under whatever OS you bought it for.

>When rental, it is very clear just how long your program will continue
>to work.

Not at all.  The rental model makes no more guarantees about long-term
upgrades, the company staying in business or continuing to work on the
product, etc. than the sale model does.
--
Mark Rafn    dagon@dagon.net    <http://www.dagon.net/>
Twisted - 21 Jul 2007 07:01 GMT
> Not at all.  The rental model makes no more guarantees about long-term
> upgrades, the company staying in business or continuing to work on the
> product, etc. than the sale model does.

And to top it off, the rental model more thoroughly puts you at the
vendor's mercy. What if your data is stored on their servers instead
of locally? What if the software requires (gratuitously -- its main
functionality doesn't, but its license validation BS does) their net
servers to be available and they happen to go down? The vendor can
force-feed you a downgrade, i.e. disable a feature, and then charge
extra for a "deluxe" rental option that brings the feature back. We've
seen these tactics used with the "standard" upgrade treadmill model by
the likes of Intuit before; and satellite TV providers dropping
channels from packages you had resulting in your having to pay extra
to continue receiving them; there's no reason to have any faith
whatsoever that software renters won't do equally nasty things
whenever they feel the need to show revenue growth at a quarterly
meeting with shareholders or some such. Once you're dependent on them
for productivity (and especially if they have any of your documents
hostage!) they can just squeeze and squeeze. A regular software vendor
can only do that to the extent that they can make an update essential
(MS gratuitously breaks backward compatibility so as soon as one
person in one workplace uses a new version of MS Word, their co-
workers that sometimes use documents from them have to follow suit,
and the new version then spreads virus-like and Microsoft laughs all
the way to the bank, so this IS possible, but at least they have to
work for it)...
Roedy Green - 22 Jul 2007 03:48 GMT
>>When rental, it is very clear just how long your program will continue
>>to work.
>
>Not at all.  The rental model makes no more guarantees about long-term
>upgrades, the company staying in business or continuing to work on the
>product, etc. than the sale model does.

Yes, but you can cancel your rental contract before the vendor has all
the money you planned to give him in your lifetime.  With purchase,
you trust him, and give it to him all up front.  You have no leverage.
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The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com

Twisted - 22 Jul 2007 11:16 GMT
On Jul 21, 10:48 pm, Roedy Green <see_webs...@mindprod.com.invalid>
wrote:

> >>When rental, it is very clear just how long your program will continue
> >>to work.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the money you planned to give him in your lifetime.  With purchase,
> you trust him, and give it to him all up front.  You have no leverage.

Ah, but you are forgetting to do the math. If I pay $200 for some
software up front, I get anywhere from months to years to forever of
functionality out of it for that $200.

If I pay $50 a month for some "rental" BS, I get only four months from
my first $200.

As for leverage, WHAT leverage? I pay $50 a month for internet service
and another for landline service but I sure the f.ck don't have any
leverage with the phone company! If they want to change things in a
way that screws over half their customers they just go ahead and do
it, and people grit their teeth and pay for another month. For the
simple reason that a) they try to lock people into long-term contracts
and b) you really get by these days without a phone and broadband, not
in the developed world. Oh and c) they're the only provider of the
phone and one of only two providers of the broadband in the area.

Software vendors "renting" will obviously be worse, because they'll be
the only vendor period. At least the phone company has the cable
company to compete (or just form an uneasy alliance) with in the
matter of broadband service. A rental Windows would mean just
Microsoft, with no competition, and of course they would do whatever
they wanted to do and people would still have an enormous barrier to
switching away. Worse I'm guessing than they do already, with non-
rental Windows.

And of course, rental Windows might sneakily put your own files (or a
decryption key now needed to use them) on a Microsoft server
somewhere, so quitting the Microsoft habit would then mean wipe and
start over from scratch.

You keep ignoring this particular point. SOFTWARE RENTAL NECESSARILY
MEANS THE VENDOR STICKS THEIR GRUBBY MITS INTO MY f.cking COMPUTER! At
minimum for enforcement purposes. ONCE THEY DO THAT AND HAVE ME
PLUGGED INTO THEIR SERVERS 24/7 ANYWAY WHAT'S TO STOP THEM TAKING MY
DATA HOSTAGE TOO? THEY HAVE EVERY REASON TO, SO DO YOU REALLY THINK
THEY'LL JUST DECIDE TO BE NICE AND NOT DO IT ANYWAY?

If you really do think that, check yourself into the nearest nuthouse
pronto, before you get parted from your money; you will be better off
letting someone trustworthy in your close family manage it for you.
Believe me.
Andreas Leitgeb - 23 Jul 2007 12:35 GMT
> Software vendors "renting" will obviously be worse, ...

Given your dislike against rental models, I really wonder
how you cannot "see" Vendors switching to exactly that
businessmodel, once they would be deprived of their current
right of copy-control...
Twisted - 24 Jul 2007 01:03 GMT
On Jul 23, 7:35 am, Andreas Leitgeb <a...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at>
wrote:
> > Software vendors "renting" will obviously be worse, ...
>
> Given your dislike against rental models, I really wonder
> how you cannot "see" Vendors switching to exactly that
> businessmodel, once they would be deprived of their current
> right of copy-control...

Privilege of copy-control, and I don't see them being able to enforce
a rental business model in the presence of free non-rental
competition, since someone could freely reverse engineer their
"service" and create standalone software to do the same job that was
100% compatible with the original (or 110% compatible -- now with
support for empty wallets and systems without network access!).

The only exception I can foresee here is where the application is an
MMORPG or similarly, and use of the vendor's servers is necessary for
it to work. Even then, competing servers that can be used with
compatible software could be created.

Evil business models would die. Software that can be implemented as
purely local computation would have free local-computation-only
implementations and there'd be no getting trapped unable to migrate
from something like Windoze while someone like Bill Gates sticks a
hand in your pocket. Server-based stuff that could be implemented
purely locally included. Server-based stuff that is necessarily
online, because it involves multiple users interacting online, might
have decentralized p2p equivalents and certainly would have
competition, so prices would be driven down to operating expenses plus
reasonable margins.

Everyone wins, except the fatcat types. They end up going from rich to
merely being able to make ends meet, at worst, and may remain
moderately wealthy given they have actual talents in a useful area.
Mostly, it's management and lawyer types that would really lose out
and may even have to switch careers and get an honest job. And even
then they won't likely starve.
Twisted - 17 Jul 2007 06:49 GMT
> > Hire out your programming expertise then. There is always work for
> > people with a talent for coding.
>
>     Yes, that's exactly what I was suggesting, and seems to run counter to
> your "let's give all software away for free" philosophy.

Nope. I don't have a problem with saying "I'll code this for you if
you pay me thus-and-such". It's trying to control the downstream use
of the code once published that bothers me.

>     It's the *other* stuff that your definition includes which worries me.
> Stuff like charging money for the right to use a specific software
> program, for example.

Let's see. If I use a specific software program where a copy is
installed on my machine, what are the actual burdens I place on others
in so doing?
* The copy