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Java Forum / General / April 2007latest best practice
Hi, I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web app would probably use struts and personally i avoided EJB completely. So, is JSF better than struts (or would you use both?). Has EJB become easier to understand or is it better to use Hibernate or similar? Has Google Web tool kit had an impact? Thanks, Andy > I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really > know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > or similar? > Has Google Web tool kit had an impact? I can comment only partially: EJB 3.0 has made a big step forward by allowing to include meta data via Java 5 annotations directly into the code. Also, I believe, there is a Hibernate add on that will actually be able to read this meta data. Generally there seems to be some convergence going on between hibernate and EJB persistence. HTH robert > I can comment only partially: EJB 3.0 has made a big step forward by > allowing to include meta data via Java 5 annotations directly into the > code. A minority (including me) does not see that as a step forward ... Arne > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > or similar? > Has Google Web tool kit had an impact? Struts2, which is an amalgamation mainly of WebWorks though also previous Struts practices, is worth a look at, not sure it's got a final release yet, but it can't be long. Spring is well worth using for its own sake in your webapps, especially if the framework already uses it. Acegi is a great security tool and has strong community support. Hibernate is going from strength to strength, even the .Net community use a version of it! Eclipse has a host of plugins that aid webdev greatly espcially hibernate/tomcat support. You can use Hibernate and restrict yourself to the JEE persistence API which is a subset, to ease future EJB container migration. HTH  SignatureMike W "stixwix" <andywickson@gmail.com> wrote ... >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> or similar? >> Has Google Web tool kit had an impact? For smaller applications I use neither Struts nor JSF, but just write my own controller servlet. It's a little bit of work, but once you've done it once it only takes a couple of hours to put together a complete web app ever onward. The rest of the work, writing logic or "Action" classes and the DAO layer, etc., is the same. For larger apps, or ones that tend to evolve feature sets or maintenance crews, frameworks are a better choice. In that world I would prefer JSF because it's from Sun and because the rampant abuse of Struts 1.1 soured me on that project. I am given to understand that JSF and Struts could actually be used together, but I know not much of it. I am just buckling down to learn JSF. -- Lew >>> I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really >>> know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web >>> app > For smaller applications I use neither Struts nor JSF, but just write my > own controller servlet. For sure, it just doesn't cut it at interviews. SignatureMike W >>>> I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really >>>> know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > For sure, it just doesn't cut it at interviews. Which is a shame, because so many people get through the interview because they can correctly explain how to set up a struts-config.xml, but then when they get on the job they totally don't understand how Struts works, the basis of the MVC architecture, or when to use or not use certain taglibs, and they completely hose the project. If I were interviewing you, I'd be much more impressed that you know how to build a framework than that you know how to (mis)use one. -- Lew >>>>> I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really >>>>> know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > If I were interviewing you, I'd be much more impressed that you know how > to build a framework than that you know how to (mis)use one. I'm beginning to doubt whether anyone is going to hire me after I finish my current studies. I have a highly developed general "learn computer concepts and apply them" skill. I can see myself having to study the currently fashionable acronyms just to get to an interview. Patricia > >>>>> I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really > >>>>> know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > concepts and apply them" skill. I can see myself having to study the > currently fashionable acronyms just to get to an interview. Well .... Take my comments with a huge grain of salt, because most of what I know about getting industry jobs with an advanced degree is second-hand at best. (I'm in academia.) With that disclaimer: What degree are you pursuing, and what kind of job are you thinking of applying for? If it's a master's, and you're thinking of a job focusing more on development, then your concerns might be well founded. But if it's a PhD, and you're thinking of something more research-oriented, I'm not sure familiarity with the current crop of buzzwords will matter so much. (And -- have you thought at all about an academic job? Based on your track record in this group, you seem pretty good at explaining things, and patient with newbie questions, which would be huge assets in a job that emphasizes teaching.) SignatureB. L. Massingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor. >>>>> I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really >>>>> know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > If I were interviewing you, I'd be much more impressed that you know how > to build a framework than that you know how to (mis)use one. On the other hand, there are strategic hires (e.g. "Is this person a generally good programmer? It doesn't matter what specific technologies they are familiar with, as a good programmer will be able to pick up new technologies relatively quickly.") and there are tactical hires (e.g. "We're 6 months behind schedule. We need someone who knows how to work with FooBar right now. We need them to use FooBar the same way our 20 other developers use FooBar, which is the same way everyone else uses FooBar. We do NOT need a different (or custom) framework to replace FooBar, even if it this different framework is faster, better, stronger. We don't need someone smart, we just need someone who will do what they're told, with little to no supervision/overhead. So do you know how to edit a FooBar-conf.xml file?") - Oliver > On the other hand, there are strategic hires (e.g. "Is this person a > generally good programmer? It doesn't matter what specific technologies [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > told, with little to no supervision/overhead. So do you know how to edit a > FooBar-conf.xml file?") Such "tactical" hiring can be very shortsighted. For example, in my own experience I have seen that people who understand the Front Controller pattern can use Struts quite well, but those who don't make a complete hash of things. A hiring manager would be well advised to make sure that the programmers they hire * actually know how to program * . Too many collecting paychecks for as programmers have too little talent or knowledge for the activity and too much ego or laziness to admit it. SignatureLew Oliver Wong wrote : > On the other hand, there are strategic hires (e.g. "Is this person a > generally good programmer? It doesn't matter what specific technologies they > are familiar with, as a good programmer will be able to pick up new > technologies relatively quickly.") Yes, except that this person will NEVER make it through the inital HR sweep. "Ok, you do not know Java 1.2.3.4? We ONLY use THAT verison here...." Typically the HR droid has gone thought the development managers and asked them what specific technologiess they are using or have ever used. That becomes the basis for the job ad and the initial filter criteria for all the responses SignatureWojtek :-) > Yes, except that this person will NEVER make it through the inital HR > sweep. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > used. That becomes the basis for the job ad and the initial filter > criteria for all the responses I agree that this happens, but I wonder how much of the blame for this lies in ourselves. We -- obviously -- cannot expect HR folk to make sensible decisions on real technical matters, so the only filters they can apply are the ones we ourselves suggest. And if we don't tell them things like (for instance): Java is the underlying stuff -- they have to know that well, but it doesn't matter much how/where/when they learned it. Web servers are an application of Java, and not everyone who knows Java well will have done anything with web servers. We'd prefer someone who has at least /some/ experience of web servers, but it doesn't matter much whether they gained it with any of the following: XXX, YYY, ZZZ... or even if they worked with a non-Java webserver such as: AAA, BBB, CCC. Experience of web-page design, DreamWeaver, PHP, or Flash, is not relevant. Ideally, we want the person to have experience of the specific web-server called JBoss, but that isn't as important as the other two. then how can they be expected to help ? FWIW, the small experience I have suggests that HR people prefer to be given more sensible information about what we are looking for. -- chris > I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really > know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web > app would probably use struts and personally i avoided EJB completely. > So, is JSF better than struts (or would you use both?). I would go for JSF. Preferrable a JSF implementation with AJAX support. > Has EJB become easier to understand or is it better to use Hibernate > or similar? Is it best to use hammer or paint ? It depends a lot on what you want to do. Hibernate is not a replacement for EJB's. Hibernate is a replacement for entity beans. You may still need session beans and message driven beans if you need that functionality. With EJB 3.0 (but note that the EJB 3 standard is not that widely used yet) the difference between entity bean and Hibernate is much smaller than it was. The Spring framework is also rather hot. It is often combined with Hibernate. But can also be combined with EJB's. > Has Google Web tool kit had an impact? I do not know. I though GWT was Java code being compiled to JavaScript to be executed client side. Arne > Hi, > > I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really > know what has happened in the interim. Depends on what you're looking at but Spring took a part of the Java world by storm and has lots of momentum. Not everybody uses it, but it may interest you: http://www.springfamework.org (it's entirely Open Source Software) Spring now has some very interesting real-world success stories. > At that time, a typical web app would probably use struts and > personally i avoided EJB completely. > So, is JSF better than struts (or would you use both?). I'd use Spring. Spring projects continues to avoid EJB. You can use struts + Spring (Spring is much more than struts) but Spring's design is so much cleaner that, for a new project, I wouldn't bother with struts at all. > Has Google Web tool kit had an impact? This is another topic: it is gaining some traction but apparently not *that* much of an impact yet. If you're writing a Java Webapp and need some JavaScript on the client's browser, then GWT can be really useful: you write in Java and you've got JavaScript automagically generated. GWT fixes many JavaScript-related caching *bugs* (not just nasty caching issues, but also browser bugs etc.) and offers you safer type checking than plain JavaScript, a nice API, etc. > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks, > Andy In summary there is now more choice, but at the same time less agreement over the best frameworks to use:) There has also been some level of recognition (by some but not all) that there are alternatives to EJBs for enterprise development. Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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