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Java Forum / General / March 2007

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SYNCHRONIZING problem

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adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 15 Mar 2007 20:26 GMT
ok i cant take it anymore. i need help!

let me describe my java solution as best i could pertaining to my
problem.
it is a card game. u know, server app as the brain and fancy gui for
the applet clients that u surf via "cardgame.com" for eg.
now....
the server side of things basically consists of a "ConnectionListener"
that listens for clients wanting to play (connect to the table). each
time it detects someone trying to connect, it spins of a
"PlayListener" thread who's main purpose is to listen to that client's
"plays".
so lets say we have 4 people playing the game, we have 1
ConnectionListener and 4 PlayListeners.
thats 5 threads.
all the methods of play reside in the main program CardGameServer.
dealCards(), playCard(), shuffleAnimation(), cutPack() etc.
now i like animation. a lot. u know, like a card shuffle animation or
the cards coming off the table 1 by 1 after a round of play.
this, i achieved by having the CardGameServer implement Runnable. in
the run() method there are many if(flag) clauses that,
if( flag==true), a particular animation is run. for eg.

                    if (cutAnim){
                        cutAnim();
                    }
                    if (shuffleAnim){
                        shuffleAnim();
                    }
                    if (gameStage==3 &&
                            getPlayer(fourMax(sg.dealer.playerNum-1)).robot!=null){
                        cut();
                    }
                    if (gameStage==8 && // 8 means: 1st card played and round has not
yet ended.
                            getPlayer(fourMax(sg.rd.currTurn)).robot==null && //not a robot
                            getPlayer(fourMax(sg.rd.currTurn)).hand.size()==1 && //1 card
left
                            sg.rd.currPlay<5 // 4th card not yet played
                    ){
                        doPlay(getPlayer(fourMax(sg.rd.currTurn)).hand.elementAt(0)); //
only card left
                    } //if only 1 card remains in the hand, play it automatically

so when i want an animation performed, i simply switch one of these
flags to true.
when it enters, say, cutAnim(), the 1st line of code in cutAnim()
switches the flag back to false so theres no possibility of falsely re-
entering the animation.
the run routine is in an endless while(true) loop, forever searching
for "true" flags or robot plays.
if there is a better way of performing these animations without using
up valuable thread processing time, pleeeease let me know. i cant
imagine a 100 instances of the gameserver all continuously looping.

anyway, onward.

i have also created AI robots that u can assign to the table instead
of waiting indefinitely for human players to log in.
when its their turn to play, the endless run loop simply checks to see
if the player whose "currTurn" it is, is not human
(getPlayer(......currTurn).robot!=null and a host of other checks like
gameStage etc. once these meet the criteria, it goes into the AI code
to find the best play and does it.
the difference is, the AI's play is instigated from the thread
commanding the run() method of the CardGameServer class.
whereas the human's play is instigated from the playListener Class
which calls methods residing in the CardGameServer class.

the problem for me arises when i try to put a lock on the animation.
if i dont, sometimes it gets corrupted and the animation goes awry. in
the past (b4 i learned about the synchronized keyword), i suspend
either the playListener thread or the server thread, afterward
resuming. it worked fine except under a particular circumstance, if
the human did the shuffling and a robot cut the pack, the human would
hang when trying to make a play (maybe deadlock?).
added to the fact that these keywords are now defunct, i opted for a
cleaner design using synchronized.
ive tried adding wait() and notifyAll() but nothing works. either the
human hangs ot the robot hangs.
i need the animations to complete without any interference from a
human command coming in.
but i also need the damn thing to work. from start to finish no matter
what ratio of humans to robots are on the table

help.
Joshua Cranmer - 15 Mar 2007 22:35 GMT
> ok i cant take it anymore. i need help!
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> the run() method there are many if(flag) clauses that,
> if( flag==true), a particular animation is run. for eg.

Wouldn't it be better to handle animation in the client applet?

> [scissor happy]
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> help.

I can't take it anymore, either. Usenet is not a text message
repository, nor is it a chat room. Therefore, take pains to write proper
English. Also, please try not to speak in slang (i.e., do not put "u
know" every few sentences).

It sounds as if your basic problem is that you're handling animation on
the server side. If so, then simple message passing between
client/server while forcing the client to handle the animation is much
simpler. This design would also ease the robot problem by allowing you
to spawn the custom "robot" client through Process, etc.
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 15 Mar 2007 23:57 GMT
> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > ok i cant take it anymore. i need help!
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
> simpler. This design would also ease the robot problem by allowing you
> to spawn the custom "robot" client through Process, etc.

1st off. ur prima donna attitude sucks. this is still the internet. a
forum
that was designed WITH shorthand in mind. trust me, u will be hard
pressed
to compete proper english grammer with me.

that said, i am not familiar with the customs
here and ur "welcome" came across very rude hence my reply.
i would however like to keep to the project at hand.
ur suggestion is well taken and i am impressed with ur speed in
understanding my project.
i do want my server to also be gui based. which is how it is now,
where u can see
all 4 hands of the players and the animations run just like the
clients do. of course, just
a simple server with a brain and message passing would be simpler but
i 1st wrote
the program as the server then i copied it and whittled it down to a
client version where
most of the "brains" of the game were taken out and left for the
server to do.
this left me with a server that had an impressive gui, so y waste it?
it also helps in the debugging and programming of the AI's as i can
see all the hands
without having to open 4 clients.

but where the animation i concerned, is there a different way to do it
on the server side?
also, what did u mean by 'spawn the custom "robot" client through
Process'?
Daniel Pitts - 16 Mar 2007 00:26 GMT
On Mar 15, 3:57 pm, adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:

> > adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > ok i cant take it anymore. i need help!
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
> pressed
> to compete proper english grammer with me.
First off, this is Usenet, part of the Internet which was design by an
English speaking military. Even if that wasn't the case,
comp.lang.java.programmer is an English newsgroup, and it is expected
that one uses coherent English when asking questions and writing
replies.

> that said, i am not familiar with the customs
> here and ur "welcome" came across very rude hence my reply.
He has informed you of the customs "here", and yet you still ignore
them.

> i would however like to keep to the project at hand.

Okay, I have a suggestion then... I notice all over your code you have
lines like:
if (gameStage==8 && // 8 means: 1st card played and round has not yet
ended.

Okay, its great that you have commented what 8 means.  It would be
even better if you refactored a little bit:

Step one: add a constant.
public static final int GAME_STAGE_MIDDLE_OF_ROUND = 8;
and use that instead:
if (gameStage == GAME_STAGE_MIDDLE_OF_ROUND &&

Step two: Introduce a self-documenting method:

public boolean isMiddleOfRound() {
   return gameStage == GAME_STAGE_MIDDLE_OF_ROUND;
}

and replace your if again...
if (isMiddleOfRound() &&

Wow, look how much more legible that is! And no wasted time with
comments that may grow out of date.

Step three: Consider refactoring further to a finite-state-machine,
where gameStage is no longer an int, but instead a GameState object
which does different things depending on which state the Game is in.

I'm sorry if I was a little condescending in my post.  You're response
was inappropriate to Joshua's.  Most of the regular posters here will
ask that you use more formal English.  Also, Joshua *did* give you
some useful suggestions.

Oh, and my suggestions about your code style aren't meant to be
demeaning at all, I too used to code like that, but I've learned after
17 years of programming that code should be as self-documenting as
possible.

Also, I have a few suggested books for you to read that will improve
your project significantly:
1. Java Concurrency In Practice (by Brian Goetz) <http://
www.javaconcurrencyinpractice.com/>
2. Refactoring (by Martin Fowler) and/or Refactoring To Patterns (by
Joshua Kerievsky)

The first book will help you understand how to handle multi-threaded
applications, and either of the two other books will help you design
clean and understandable programs.

I truly hope this helps,
Daniel.
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 16 Mar 2007 02:25 GMT
On Mar 15, 6:26 pm, "Daniel Pitts" <googlegrou...@coloraura.com>
wrote:
> On Mar 15, 3:57 pm, adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 152 lines]
> I truly hope this helps,
> Daniel.

i will checkout the book.
thanks for the good idea about refactoring. i will heed ur advice.
thats so brilliant im pissed for not thinking about it myself.
i dont know about the finite game stage thing though.
a lot of the code depends on inequalties like if(gameStage>3 &&
gameStage<9){}.
i like the numerical idea cause sometimes a RANGE of proof is
necessary not just one particular state.
with ur idea though, i can use both.

now i dont mean to dismiss but this part actually works. what DOES NOT
work is the atomizing of the animations.
i am almost willing to offer u the job of debugging the animation
problem and bring this project to a professional state of completion.
would that be of interest to u?
im sure someone with ur many yrs of experience can do this in a couple
days.
let me know.
Daniel Pitts - 16 Mar 2007 03:00 GMT
On Mar 15, 6:25 pm, adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 15, 6:26 pm, "Daniel Pitts" <googlegrou...@coloraura.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 174 lines]
> days.
> let me know.

I have a real job, just in case you thought I was looking for
something to do :-)
I might be able to spare some time to help you get it into shape, but
it wouldn't be a priority for me.

BTW, if you can partition your gameState ranges in the right ways...
Assuming gameState 3 through 8 is something like "ActiveRound" (it
must mean SOMETHING to you)

interface GameState {
  void doState();
}

abstract class ActiveRoundState extends GameState {
 public void doState() {
    doActiveRoundThings();
    doMoreThings();
 }

 private doActiveRoundThings() {
   // whatever goes here.
 }
 // Override to do more specific things.
 protected abstract void doMoreThings();
}

class MiddleOfGameState extends ActiveRoudnState {
 protected void doMoreThings() {
    // something else goes here
 }
}

----
Hopefully this makes sense.  The concept is that almost any
conditional can be made into polymorphisms instead.  Sometimes it
doesn't make sense, but it often does if you have a State (such as
GameState) :-)

If you REALLY want me to take a look at your code, post it somewhere
that I can download it.  If I have time, I'll see what I can do.

Hope this helps, and good luck.
Daniel.
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 16 Mar 2007 04:29 GMT
On Mar 15, 9:00 pm, "Daniel Pitts" <googlegrou...@coloraura.com>
wrote:
> On Mar 15, 6:25 pm, adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 223 lines]
> Hope this helps, and good luck.
> Daniel.

yes ur design would make the code more everything. readable,
expandable, etc.
i wanna do it!
but thats not so much my problem as is the animation screwing up the
continuity. deadlocks abound.
i just had an idea, would it work if, instead of having an endless
loop look for a flag switched to true temporarily to then execute an
animation method, i have the animation activated from a temporarily
instantiated thread that vanishes after the animation is done?
Daniel Pitts - 16 Mar 2007 06:19 GMT
On Mar 15, 8:29 pm, adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 15, 9:00 pm, "Daniel Pitts" <googlegrou...@coloraura.com>
> wrote:

[snip a lot of old stuff]
> > I have a real job, just in case you thought I was looking for
> > something to do :-)
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> animation method, i have the animation activated from a temporarily
> instantiated thread that vanishes after the animation is done?

That is one approach... It might be even better to use animated GIF
images instead, and let Java handle the animation for you.
Alternatively, you could use a javax.swing.Timer <http://java.sun.com/
j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/javax/swing/Timer.html> to manage the animation.
You would call timer.start() to enable the animation, and when the
animation was finished, have the ActionListener call timer.stop()

Swing is designed around the Single Thread pattern.  Swing objects
should only be accessed by one thread.  While it is possible to move
data to that thread in a safe manor, the more you can avoid that, the
cleaner your program becomes.  The only time you should do anything on
a different thread is when you have a potentially long operation to
perform. Other wise you should stick to the event driven model and
have all your work on the EDT.

What this means is that you should NEVER block the EDT with
*anything*.  For example, you should avoid synchronize(){}, wait(),
network connections, or anything else that could block execution.

Java Concurrency in Practice goes over this model in detail.
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 16 Mar 2007 23:44 GMT
> That is one approach... It might be even better to use animated GIF
> images instead, and let Java handle the animation for you.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Java Concurrency in Practice goes over this model in detail.

i purchased it last night. thanks for the heads up.
i also already did the inner class thread thing for the animations.
its KINDA workin. i still need a way to order the spun off animations
so they act when they supposed to.
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 16 Mar 2007 06:58 GMT
On Mar 15, 10:29 pm, adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 15, 9:00 pm, "Daniel Pitts" <googlegrou...@coloraura.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 236 lines]
> animation method, i have the animation activated from a temporarily
> instantiated thread that vanishes after the animation is done?

hey...email me: adrian...at...bartholomusic...d.ooo.t...coooooommmmm
and ill send u the code for u to take a look at. thanks so very much
daniel.
Lew - 16 Mar 2007 03:54 GMT
> 1st off. ur prima donna attitude sucks.

That's the pot calling the kettle black, only Joshua was no kettle.

Grow up.

-- Lew
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 16 Mar 2007 04:18 GMT
> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > 1st off. ur prima donna attitude sucks.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> -- Lew

Lew.....chill baby.
ur the reason the word "nerd" exists.
u have NOTHING else to do? lol
Joshua Cranmer - 16 Mar 2007 23:03 GMT
> 1st off. ur prima donna attitude sucks. this is still the internet. a
> forum
> that was designed WITH shorthand in mind. trust me, u will be hard
> pressed
> to compete proper english grammer with me.
"To compete proper English grammar with me"? That doesn't bode too well.

> that said, i am not familiar with the customs
> here and ur "welcome" came across very rude hence my reply.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> i do want my server to also be gui based. which is how it is now,
> where u can see
This is something you should have mentioned in the problem statement,
then. If someone doesn't know what's going on, he or she can only
assume, and assumptions have this nasty habit of being wrong.

> all 4 hands of the players and the animations run just like the
> clients do. of course, just
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> also, what did u mean by 'spawn the custom "robot" client through
> Process'?

I meant that your client might be better spawned off in a separate
process, a la C's fork() command.
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 16 Mar 2007 23:37 GMT
> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > 1st off. ur prima donna attitude sucks. this is still the internet. a
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> I meant that your client might be better spawned off in a separate
> process, a la C's fork() command.

sorry monsieur.
"..to compete in the 'proper english grammer arena' with moi..."
is that ok with his highness?

my client IS spawned off ala my original "problem" post. my problem is
not the Client.
Lew - 17 Mar 2007 05:16 GMT
>>> 1st off. ur prima donna attitude sucks. this is still the internet.
>>> a forum that was designed WITH shorthand in mind.
>>> trust me, u will be hard pressed to compete proper english grammer with me.

Joshua Cranmer wrote:
>> "To compete proper English grammar with me"? That doesn't bode too well.

> ... is that ok with his highness?

Calm down. We all get our egos poked here - I certainly have earned my share
of pokes. Just relax and let the natural topic resurface.

Joshua's remark was a way of saying that your challenge to a grammar
competition carried within its ungrammatical expression a prediction ("does
not bode well") that you would not fare well in the contest. He even quietly
corrected two of your spelling errors. I doubt very much that any harm was
intended. You did open the door by issuing an ungrammatical challenge to a
grammar contest.

That said, you've been getting what seems to be some very useful help with
your technical difficulties. Let's not drive away the beneficent spirits by
being too quick to offense. One way to attract more assistance is to take the
respectful care to communicate clearly and politely.

-- Lew
Patricia Shanahan - 17 Mar 2007 06:34 GMT
...
> 1st off. ur prima donna attitude sucks. this is still the internet. a
> forum
> that was designed WITH shorthand in mind. trust me, u will be hard
> pressed
> to compete proper english grammer with me.
...

I don't usually get involved in the grammar fights - I just don't
respond to postings that seem to me to be unnecessarily unreadable.

However, this quote contains two factual statements that I don't agree with:

1. This forum is comp.lang.java.programmer, a USENET newsgroup. When I
started using USENET it was based on UUCP. The Internet is just a
convenient means of communicating with a server and for servers to
exchange articles, not essential to a distributed newsgroup system.

2. Can you supply some evidence for the proposition that the Internet
was "designed WITH shorthand in mind."? The Internet protocols seem
to me to be completely neutral about grammar and spelling in the text
content of packets.

I've only noticed a high level of use of your style of shorthand in
the last few years. From both the timing and its nature, I assumed it
was related to the spread of text messaging using devices with crippled
text input, such as cell phones.

Patricia
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 17 Mar 2007 10:59 GMT
> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Patricia

interesting twist.
i grew up within a family of school principals (mother and
grandfather) and english majors being corrected at every turn.
sometimes punished, so serious an offense in my home it was.
yes i agree with the late slackness or laziness in text communication
online. but understand where i am coming from.
when we get our heads "out of our a.ses" (really, it is the perfect
slang in this situation in my opinion) we would realize that the
COMMUNICATION is the foremost priority.
it is extremely funny to me, coming from a british background in
education, to be corrected by an american, whose constant bastardizing
of the english language sets off many heated debates around the world.
americans have changed spelling and pronunciations (note...not
pronounciations...as is so the american way) that really should not be
changed. for eg. the coveted "our" suffix (the plural of which is
"suffices" and not "suffixes") that make the language beautiful has
been changed to "or" in many words and conveniently left as is in
some. the "r" in "hour, for e.g., was never meant to be pronounced,
hence the spelling. listen to any well bred person in any english
speaking country other than america.
i CAN spell and am impeccable with my grammar when i need to be. and
this is not that place. what seemed funny to my previous critiques
(which brings to mind the bastardized "check" as opposed to "cheque",
a whole "nuther" word), was still me not caring about the
correctedness of my typing text online. i was not trying to be
grammatically correct. that was the whole point. they just didnt get
it. i dont care.

wise men walk all the way around a tree to end up right back at the
beginning, much the wiser. Miles Davis once said, learn all u can
about ur instrument. everything there is to know about it. then forget
everything u learnt.
at that point, u need to prove no more. feel.
who cares about if i use shorthand. they can all FEEL what im saying.
this...is true understanding.
not the forum for this topic, i apologize.

thanks for listening Patricia.
Andrew Thompson - 17 Mar 2007 11:34 GMT
On Mar 17, 8:59 pm, adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
..
> who cares about if i use shorthand. they can all FEEL what im saying.

will be gr8 when all ths ppl go away and u
get to talk to all ppl just like u

A.
Patricia Shanahan - 17 Mar 2007 12:27 GMT
>> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> interesting twist.

So why didn't you bother to reply to either of my specific points on the
history and nature of newsgroups?

...
> it is extremely funny to me, coming from a british background in
> education, to be corrected by an american, whose constant bastardizing
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> hence the spelling. listen to any well bred person in any english
> speaking country other than america.

I am English, but live in California. The fact that you seem to think
I'm American is a nice demonstration of the quality of my American
dialect writing.

I use American spelling in contexts where American is the more
conventional dialect. That includes newsgroups where the majority of
readers are likely to be more familiar with American, business writing
within US-based corporations, academic papers submitted to American
publications, and e-mail to my American friends.

I switch my spell checker over to English spellings when I'm writing to
my mother. She can read American, but is more familiar with English. The
point is that, because my objective is to communicate, I try to make my
writing as readable as possible for my audience.

> i CAN spell and am impeccable with my grammar when i need to be. and
> this is not that place. what seemed funny to my previous critiques
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> grammatically correct. that was the whole point. they just didnt get
> it. i dont care.

I know you don't care.

> wise men walk all the way around a tree to end up right back at the
> beginning, much the wiser. Miles Davis once said, learn all u can
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> who cares about if i use shorthand. they can all FEEL what im saying.
> this...is true understanding.

No, I feel the meaning when I look at conventional English or American
writing. To read what you call "shorthand" I have to slow down and sound
out individual letters and words, just the way I did when I was learning
to read. Even then, there is often some guesswork involved.

> not the forum for this topic, i apologize.
>
> thanks for listening Patricia.

So how about responding to what I wrote?[

Patricia
Lew - 17 Mar 2007 16:02 GMT
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com wrote:
> when we get our heads "out of our a.ses" (really, it is the perfect
> slang in this situation in my opinion) we would realize that the
> COMMUNICATION is the foremost priority.

And yet, ironically, when people suggest a way to improve your communication
you cuss at us. Nice way to win friends and influence people, Dale Carnegie.

-- Lew
Chris Uppal - 17 Mar 2007 19:09 GMT
> To read what you call "shorthand" I have to slow down and sound
> out individual letters and words, just the way I did when I was learning
> to read.

Me too.

Which is about half the reason why I almost immediately killfiled your
correspondent here (the other half of the reason being his stoppily arrogant
attitude[*]).

   -- chris

[*] I can take stroppy, I don't usually mind arrogance if it has something to
back it up (it can even be appropriate sometimes), but the combination is less
than appealing.
Lew - 17 Mar 2007 20:07 GMT
> [*] I can take stroppy, I don't usually mind arrogance if it has something to
> back it up (it can even be appropriate sometimes), but the combination is less
> than appealing.

I had to look this one up:
<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stroppy>

Love it.

-- Lew
Lew - 17 Mar 2007 20:11 GMT
>> [*] I can take stroppy, I don't usually mind arrogance if it has
>> something to
>> back it up (it can even be appropriate sometimes), but the combination
>> is less
>> than appealing.

Advice for the stroppy:

<http://www.dalecarnegie.wwwhubs.com/>
"One of the core ideas in his books is that it is possible to change other
people's behavior by changing one's reaction to them."

I really should read the book some day.

-- Lew
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 17 Mar 2007 23:40 GMT
> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
>
> Patricia

so my dear friends. i am in a gang war facing my impending doom at the
hands of the almighty verbose intellectuals.
patricia, i will get back to u on the subject that is really the focus
of ur reply. did not mean to diss u. promise.
i just keep getting sidetracked with the mob's sticks and stones.

first, i never assumed that YOU were american. as a matter of FACT, i
suspected ur difference, though this may not please ur affinity toward
cultural merging when it comes to communication through language. no
insult intended.
if ur mom decided to cut u off because u didnt write to her in
british, u would begin to understand the reason for my continued
debate on the extremety of the replies.

my rebuttals have to do with the SERIOUSNESS in which the mob is
handling a very trivial issue that is, in my not so humble opinion,
not nearly as extreme as our good friend Andrew Thompson poked me with
and a good deal substantive enough for any scientist to partake. since
when do scientists not talk to each other in the lab in a relaxed
manner? i do. u should hear us in TRINIDAD. u wont understand a thing
and its STILL english. lol.
my point is that this, MY, case is way too grey to warrant all the
hate mail thats received on this particular topic.

to begin answering ur questions Patricia, electronic communication
began with the meagerest of codes. for eg. morse code, then telex etc.
one can separate the "usenet" groups from the historical connection as
much as he wants but its not.
would u impeach a president because he lied about running a traffic
light? maybe in THIS country but the impeachment law was not written
in that spirit. nor is the need for exactedness in scientific
communication where this thread is concerned. save the accuracy for
the subject itself if u need to, i say.
i see code written here with descriptions to its problem that is
SOOOOO confusing due to the lack of the understanding of conciseness,
punctuation and general grammer that its hard to believe they're
picking on lil old ME.
i will continue anwering ur questions a little later.

gotta get some more usenet help:-)
Patricia Shanahan - 18 Mar 2007 03:36 GMT
...
> to begin answering ur questions Patricia, electronic communication
> began with the meagerest of codes. for eg. morse code, then telex etc.
> one can separate the "usenet" groups from the historical connection as
> much as he wants but its not.

If I understand this sentence, I agree that one has to look at USENET in
historical context.

I have used TELEX, and I don't remember seeing arbitrary abbreviations
such as "ur". I believe there are specialized systems of agreed
abbreviations for certain TELEX-dependent fields such as shipping, but I
was not aware of any system of abbreviations for computer software.

Messages tended to be carefully composed, because of the difficulty and
cost of resolving any misunderstanding, so arbitrary spelling and
abbreviations would be unlikely.

My personal knowledge of USENET history only really extends back to
1983, when I started using it. However, http://groups.google.com has an
extensive archive which can be searched by date.

I don't remember seeing "u", "ur" etc. much in technical newsgroups
until very recently, about the last 5 years. Early messages in the
archive for net.lang.c match my recollection.

Patricia
Lars Enderin - 18 Mar 2007 14:14 GMT
Patricia Shanahan skrev:
> ...
>> to begin answering ur questions Patricia, electronic communication
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> until very recently, about the last 5 years. Early messages in the
> archive for net.lang.c match my recollection.

I also fail to see why Adrian keeps using silly abbreviations despite
the responses he is getting. Not using capital letters to start
sentences and in the pronoun I further reduces readability.
He may save some marginal amount of effort, but he puts an unnecessary
burden on all his readers (a dwindling group).
Gordon Beaton - 18 Mar 2007 16:21 GMT
> I also fail to see why Adrian keeps using silly abbreviations
> despite the responses he is getting. Not using capital letters to
> start sentences and in the pronoun I further reduces readability. He
> may save some marginal amount of effort, but he puts an unnecessary
> burden on all his readers (a dwindling group).

I fail to see why this issue continues to engage people as much as it
does. I remember a time when people were helpful and discussed java,
when the biggest faux-pas was failing to post code that illustrates
the problem.

"Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send".

/gordon

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Patrick May - 18 Mar 2007 16:37 GMT
>> I also fail to see why Adrian keeps using silly abbreviations
>> despite the responses he is getting. Not using capital letters to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I fail to see why this issue continues to engage people as much as
> it does.

    From the perspective of someone not involved in this thread, it
seems to me to be a matter of courtesy.  It is rude to write in such a
way that your intended audience must expend additional effort to
understand what you're trying to communicated.

    It is also counter productive.  I am far more inclined personally
to skip posts written in a text-speak or IM style.  I don't believe
I'm in the minority.  If someone is too lazy and sloppy to even
attempt to write properly, it is likely that the content of their
writing is of correspondingly low quality.

    Before this turns into a flame war, let me be clear that I don't
include people writing in their non-native language in this
assessment.

Regards,

Patrick

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Lew - 18 Mar 2007 16:57 GMT
Gordon Beaton <n.o.t@for.email> writes:
>> I fail to see why this issue continues to engage people as much as
>> it does.

I don't know that it would have engaged people this much if the OP had taken
the original helpful hint instead of responding with rudeness and hostility to
the help. Every time someone has tried to suggest to the OP that better
communication would result in better help, they responded with sarcasm and
hostility, and refused to improve. They even issued an ungrammatical challenge
to a grammar contest and really got on their high horse. This is the sort of
thing that engages me, anyway.

>      From the perspective of someone not involved in this thread, it
> seems to me to be a matter of courtesy.  It is rude to write in such a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> attempt to write properly, it is likely that the content of their
> writing is of correspondingly low quality.

Exactly the points we've been trying to make to the OP, who then responds with
cussing and rudeness.

>      Before this turns into a flame war, let me be clear that I don't
> include people writing in their non-native language in this
> assessment.

I don't think anyone is excoriating bad grammar or misspellings as such. It is
the deliberate use of "textese" or "SMSese" or "l33t" that is at issue.
Besides, the OP claims to be a maven of grammar and further claims that their
command of English is superior, so the issue of non-native speakers is moot in
this instance. They brag about being English and incite:

> u [sic] will be hard pressed [sic] to compete proper [sic] english [sic] grammer [sic] with me.

So the real issue in this thread is not even "textese" but the OP's
unregenerate hostility and rudeness.

-- Lew
Patricia Shanahan - 18 Mar 2007 17:13 GMT
...
> So the real issue in this thread is not even "textese" but the OP's
> unregenerate hostility and rudeness.

The only subject in this subthread that really interests me is a
comment the OP made about the nature and history of USENET as
justification for the use of textese:

"this is still the internet. a forum that was designed WITH shorthand in
mind."

These statements do not match my recollection and understanding of the
history of USENET and the Internet, so I'd like to see the evidence.

Patricia
Sherm Pendley - 18 Mar 2007 20:26 GMT
>      From the perspective of someone not involved in this thread, it
> seems to me to be a matter of courtesy.  It is rude to write in such a
> way that your intended audience must expend additional effort to
> understand what you're trying to communicated.

More to the point, and from another such bystander, continued and willful
writing in such a way is seen as being rude. Writing in such a way once,
out of ignorance of the local customs, is perfectly understandable. Doing
so deliberately, after having been asked not to and told that many find
it difficult to read... Well, there's a word to describe people who go out
of their way to annoy others, but this being mixed company I won't use it.

>      It is also counter productive.  I am far more inclined personally
> to skip posts written in a text-speak or IM style.  I don't believe
> I'm in the minority.

As far as I can tell, you're not.

> If someone is too lazy and sloppy to even
> attempt to write properly, it is likely that the content of their
> writing is of correspondingly low quality.

Indeed. Sloppy writing is quite often an indicator of sloppy thinking.

>      Before this turns into a flame war, let me be clear that I don't
> include people writing in their non-native language in this
> assessment.

Quite the opposite in fact - in my experience it's almost always native
speakers who insist on butchering the language.

sherm--

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Chris Uppal - 18 Mar 2007 20:33 GMT
> "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send".

One still sees that quoted from time to time, but it's interesting (albeit only
tangentially relevant here) to note that the IETF (or whoever it was) has more
or less completely abandoned that precept.

Two reasons that I know of.  One is that forgiving software encourages (or
fails to discourage) deviant behaviour in other software.  The result is either
incompatibility (since not everyone in the N*M cases will have the same
interpretation of what flexibility is either appropriate or desirable), or a
lot more work for /everybody/.  The second is that if two interdependent, but
separate, systems are looking at the same data, but may have different
interpretations of that data, then you immediately have a potential security
hole.

Example of the first problem: HTML.

Example(s) of the second problem: HTTP response splitting and smuggling.

   -- chris
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 18 Mar 2007 22:52 GMT
On Mar 18, 2:33 pm, "Chris Uppal" <chris.up...@metagnostic.REMOVE-
THIS.org> wrote:
> > "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send".
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> interpretations of that data, then you immediately have a potential security
> hole.
">
> Example of the first problem: HTML.
>
> Example(s) of the second problem: HTTP response splitting and smuggling.
>
>     -- chris

yes chris. hence the reason for steve to disallow the cloning of
macintosh computers.
as a programmer myself, i completely understand the need for attention
to detail to every case of every letter and every semicolon. howEVER
would i survive in this industry.
so where does that leave the general consensus of the sloppy
connection between my "sloppy" writing in a forum to my "sloppy
thinking.
most of u cant help but try to put a picture to the a.shole that
started this forum. indeed, it is naturally human. almost impossible
to resist. but i can assure u that ur not only all wrong but u will be
very surprised at ur accusations when u apply it to who i really am.
that will be fun.
i only say this because childish name calling has begun:-)
wow, a smiley. soooooo not appropriate. lol.

life is efficiently inefficient and love is ultimately selfish."_ me
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 18 Mar 2007 17:07 GMT
> Patricia Shanahan skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> He may save some marginal amount of effort, but he puts an unnecessary
> burden on all his readers (a dwindling group).

again, someone with nothing to do. in case u did not notice, i was NOT
speaking to any other "reader" in this last post but Patricia. thank u
for ur superior opinion.
Lew - 18 Mar 2007 17:15 GMT
> again, someone with nothing to do. in case u did not notice, i was NOT
> speaking to any other "reader" in this last post but Patricia. thank u
> for ur superior opinion.

When you post on Usenet, you post to all. All are thus invited to respond.
That's the way it is.

Why don't you try cooperating? There are many people here eager to help as
soon as that chip comes off your shoulder. Every suggestion to which you have
responded with negativity has been an effort to assist you. A more appropriate
response is, "Thank you!"

Yes, I am trying to help you. I have nothing against you. I would love nothing
more here than for you to be able to get the assistance you say you want.

But coming back with comments like "thank u [sic] for ur [sic] superior
opinioin" is no way to win friends and influence people.

Really, we're trying to help you, specifically, adrian.bartholomew, with your
technical issues. How about you help us help you?

-- Lew
Patricia Shanahan - 18 Mar 2007 17:24 GMT
...
> again, someone with nothing to do. in case u did not notice, i was NOT
> speaking to any other "reader" in this last post but Patricia. thank u
> for ur superior opinion.

If you want to talk just to me, please use e-mail. USENET postings, by
their nature, are open to response and comment by all participants. You
can, of course, choose to ignore any posting, just as you ignored my
request for the evidence behind your comment that "this is still the
internet. a forum that was designed WITH shorthand in mind."

Patricia
Sherm Pendley - 18 Mar 2007 20:29 GMT
> again, someone with nothing to do. in case u did not notice, i was NOT
> speaking to any other "reader" in this last post but Patricia.

In case *you* didn't notice, this is a public forum, not private email.
When you post here, you're speaking to everyone, even when you're posting
in response to one person in particular.

sherm--

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adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 18 Mar 2007 22:58 GMT
> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com writes:
> > again, someone with nothing to do. in case u did not notice, i was NOT
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians:http://wv-www.net
> Cocoa programming in Perl:http://camelbones.sourceforge.net

hi sherm. hola.
wadduuuuup.
u know u CAN choose to ignore posts written in this style. no ones
stopping u.
and r u sure that u dont "butcher" the english language?
read ur post again.

also, i dont believe that i am "going out of my way to annoy others".
this HAS BECOME a thread ON THE SUBJECT.
i am merely remaining in character.
boxes, boys and girls, step out of them.
and breathe.......
the world is changing, with no thanks to u.
amen.
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 18 Mar 2007 23:06 GMT
On Mar 18, 4:58 pm, adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:

> > adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com writes:
> > > again, someone with nothing to do. in case u did not notice, i was NOT
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> the world is changing, with no thanks to u.
> amen.

jsut to change the subject
Joshua Cranmer - 19 Mar 2007 01:35 GMT
>> hi sherm. hola.
>> wadduuuuup.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> jsut to change the subject

While I do admit that this has gotten quite out of hand, there is no
reason to start bullying on sherm. He was just observing one of the main
points of Usenet, i.e., everyone can read what someone posts.

No one here is trying to start an argument except you. We were all just
asking you to comply by the general rules for good posting on Usenet,
and you *purposefully* disregarded them for whatever reason of your own.
 Your examples of "IM speech" are generally considered distasteful and
make you seem like a snobbish teenager; in the professional world, stuff
like that should not be tolerated. Frankly, if I was your boss and was
reading this thread, I would be about ready to fire you.

I would like to repeat once again the polite but firm question that has
been asked several times in this thread: Could you please stop acting
like a brat and start acting like an intelligent member of the workforce?
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 19 Mar 2007 05:53 GMT
> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> hi sherm. hola.
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> been asked several times in this thread: Could you please stop acting
> like a brat and start acting like an intelligent member of the workforce?

poor shermie:(
im sowwy sherm sherm.

joshua, i dont get it.
is not science historically improved by the challenging of the status
quo?
im not just behaving badly. i am debating it. in case u didnt notice,
IM the one being bullied upon whether or not i brought it upon myself.
im here in the corner being snarled at with much dripping of saliva.
if the only reason for ur stance is TRADITION. hey, i will have to
question the scientists here.
if u subsequently found out that i was a top scientist world renowned
for my publishings. would u change ur mind?
if i turn out to be an influential spiritual guru. would u change ur
mind?
when we discuss inside of a forum, we do so on 2 levels.
*we SCIENTIFICALLY describe a problem or a solution.
*and we bond with others LIKE us.
the 2nd level is one that involves cultural communication.
in the past, emotions were kept out of forums like this due to the
lack of technology.
now we can share emotions based upon what we learn from our cousins,
chat and IM sites.
of course we could keep it on the conservative side and just borrow
whats needed cause we're all old farts but i would LOVE to hear u 10
yrs from now when your 3 fingers that are pointing back upon u becomes
obsolete.
what do i mean? well...u called me what u come across as. snobbish.
am i not the one u all are turning ur nose up against?
im the down to earth one here saying.....relax.....or
breathe.
patricia, im coming to u soon. i havent forgotten.
Sherm Pendley - 19 Mar 2007 07:00 GMT
> poor shermie:(
> im sowwy sherm sherm.

Why would you apologize to me?

If you want to make sure that your future messages to this group fall on
deaf ears, that's your loss.

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adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 19 Mar 2007 08:51 GMT
> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com writes:
> > poor shermie:(
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians:http://wv-www.net
> Cocoa programming in Perl:http://camelbones.sourceforge.net

maybe. u think it did not occur to me?
but it will eventually be ur loss as u perpetuate ur immaturity.
so ull not play with the ugly kid cause he didnt fit in.
have u learnt nothing in ur life?
have fun shermie.
Sherm Pendley - 19 Mar 2007 09:43 GMT
> but it will eventually be ur loss as u perpetuate ur immaturity.

My immaturity? In case you missed it, I'm not the one who thinks being
obnoxious is funny. Nor am I the one who's crying like a child after being
told politely that IM-speak is considered rude on usenet.

I'm done here. I tried to help you learn how to be a better netizen, but
obviously you're one of those people who'd rather learn the hard way than
accept advice.

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Sherm Pendley - 18 Mar 2007 23:29 GMT
>> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com writes:
>> > again, someone with nothing to do. in case u did not notice, i was NOT
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> When you post here, you're speaking to everyone, even when you're posting
>> in response to one person in particular.

Quote trimmed - please don't quote signatures.

> and r u sure that u dont "butcher" the english language?

Perfectly. The use of asterisks to indicate emphasis is traditional and
accepted on Usenet. How *else* would you do so in plain ASCII? How else
would you _underline_ a word, or indicate /italics/?

> also, i dont believe that i am "going out of my way to annoy others".

You said in an earlier comment that your grammar is excellent. Therefore,
you must be making an effort to write so badly. You've been told that sort
of writing is considered rude here, so your doing so is no accident.

I've never understood why some people find it amusing to act in the most
obnoxious way possible, and I never will understand it.

> this HAS BECOME a thread ON THE SUBJECT.
> i am merely remaining in character.
> boxes, boys and girls, step out of them.
> and breathe.......
> the world is changing, with no thanks to u.
> amen.

I can't even follow that gibberish well enough to decipher what you're
trying to say.

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Alex Hunsley - 20 Mar 2007 10:30 GMT
>>adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com writes:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> u know u CAN choose to ignore posts written in this style. no ones
> stopping u.

Yes, he could, but people who responded to you with suggestions about
posting style were actually trying to *help you*. Fancy that!
Because if you don't follow conventions, and make a teensy weensy bit of
effort to make yourself as understandable as possible, people will just
think, "Why should I make an effort? He's clearly not..." Reap what ye sow.
To get the most efficient help from this group, you have to "fit in" to
a certain extent, where "fit in" means "make an effort and communicate
clearly". And there are two things that could happen to make you "fit in":
a) you follow the advice given here in good faith about communicating
clearly (so one person makes a change)
b) everyone else suddenly changes to "adapt to your style" (many people
change)

What do you think is more likely to happen? A or B?
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 18 Mar 2007 17:32 GMT
> I have used TELEX, and I don't remember seeing arbitrary abbreviations
> such as "ur". I believe there are specialized systems of agreed
> abbreviations for certain TELEX-dependent fields such as shipping, but I
> was not aware of any system of abbreviations for computer software.

do u get from my posts that i LITERALLY suggest that TELEX used modern
chat room shorthand?
computer language IS a shorthand of sorts isnt it? i know its a far
cry from arbitrary use but im trying to paint broad strokes here.

> Messages tended to be carefully composed, because of the difficulty and
> cost of resolving any misunderstanding, so arbitrary spelling and
> abbreviations would be unlikely.

thing is....i agree with this.

> I don't remember seeing "u", "ur" etc. much in technical newsgroups
> until very recently, about the last 5 years. Early messages in the
> archive for net.lang.c match my recollection.

u r correct.
but it is because they had not become a part of the culture yet. do u
believe that many laws were not cultural customs first?
life is built on laziness. muscle groups grow from weight training
BECAUSE they're lazy. they dont want to have to exert that kind of
work again, so they're ready the next time u assault them. they have
become stronger, thus bigger. u control this by using the dangling
carrot technique. thats how the body adapts and thats one of the ways
evolution works.
evolution is not only physical, its also cultural.
maybe this is way off topic and i dont want to turn it into "that"
forum but this is where my heart surrounds the reasoning for my
innocent "shorthand".

though Gordon May is not necessarily agreeing with me, i love his
quote. thats the spirit of my argument.
this is a JAVA forum. this thread has become a forum for uptight
elitists many of whom do not even qualify. so why bother?
Patrick May TRIED to poke for eg., but in the end he had to add many
disclaimers to his attack, usually a sign that the "theory" is wrong.

adrian.
Patrick May - 18 Mar 2007 17:45 GMT
> Patrick May TRIED to poke for eg., but in the end he had to add many
> disclaimers to his attack, usually a sign that the "theory" is
> wrong.

    It appears that your reading comprehension is as limited as your
communication abilities.  Let me put it so that you can understand it:
Your presentation and content suggest that you are both rude and
stupid.

    Is that sufficiently clear for you to give credence to my
"theory"?

Sincerely,

Patrick

------------------------------------------------------------------------
S P Engineering, Inc.  | Large scale, mission-critical, distributed OO
                      | systems design and implementation.
         pjm@spe.com  | (C++, Java, Common Lisp, Jini, middleware, SOA)
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 18 Mar 2007 19:46 GMT
> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com writes:
> > Patrick May TRIED to poke for eg., but in the end he had to add many
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>                        | systems design and implementation.
>           p...@spe.com  | (C++, Java, Common Lisp, Jini, middleware, SOA)

patrick.
yes i am rude. yes i am stupid.
what else do u need?
Patricia Shanahan - 18 Mar 2007 18:09 GMT
>> I have used TELEX, and I don't remember seeing arbitrary abbreviations
>> such as "ur". I believe there are specialized systems of agreed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> do u get from my posts that i LITERALLY suggest that TELEX used modern
> chat room shorthand?

Then I'm afraid I don't see your point here. What is it about TELEX that
does support your position?

>> I don't remember seeing "u", "ur" etc. much in technical newsgroups
>> until very recently, about the last 5 years. Early messages in the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> but it is because they had not become a part of the culture yet. do u
> believe that many laws were not cultural customs first?

This has nothing to do with your comment that I am questioning: "this is
still the internet. a forum that was designed WITH shorthand in mind."
Perhaps you could close this subthread by simply stating the evidence
that caused you to take that position?

Patricia
Joshua Cranmer - 18 Mar 2007 19:19 GMT
> but it is because they had not become a part of the culture yet. do u
> believe that many laws were not cultural customs first?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> carrot technique. thats how the body adapts and thats one of the ways
> evolution works.

I disagree with this statement: when you work out, you are actually
killing a few of your muscle cells, so they regenerate more prolifically
as a sort of "safeguard" from future attacks -- natural selection. Most
laziness is actually counterproductive to evolution: our bodies place
high values on fat to improve our condition, and stagnation is now
killing our bodies a la obesity.

Also, just because you can be lazy doesn't mean you should. Imagine
driving half a mile to go to the grocery store to pick up, say, a
12-pack of soda. It is much more efficient to bike ride up to the store
and get said soda, it helps the environment and your body, saves you
money, but takes effort for most people. Don't say it can't be done --
I've held two 12-packs on my bike before.

> evolution is not only physical, its also cultural.
> maybe this is way off topic and i dont want to turn it into "that"
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Patrick May TRIED to poke for eg., but in the end he had to add many
> disclaimers to his attack, usually a sign that the "theory" is wrong.

I recall reading somewhere that posting your code opens you up to
assault on your design. I originally commented on your grammar and
spelling because it was detracting from the problem and made your point
less clear; solutions are a lot easier to obtain if someone can easily
read the problem.

Elsewhere you commented that the nature of computer languages sparked
shorthand. I disagree with you on this point: maybe assembly uses
shorthand (but it's generally more verbose overall), but most
programming conventions abhor shorthand unless there is precedent, e.g.
with URL as opposed to Uniform Resource Locater. Look at Java: except
for the common abbreviations (char for character, int for integer, and
common acronyms), everything is expanded into full-word form: even
'boolean' instead of C++'s 'bool'.
Ian Wilson - 19 Mar 2007 13:32 GMT
> i grew up within a family of school principals (mother and
> grandfather) and english majors being corrected at every turn.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> slang in this situation in my opinion) we would realize that the
> COMMUNICATION is the foremost priority.

You are communicating with many people for whom English is not their
first language. Some of those people may know the answer to your
question. The more obscure your English is, the less likely you are to
get help.

> it is extremely funny to me, coming from a british background in
> education, to be corrected by an american, whose constant bastardizing
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> hence the spelling. listen to any well bred person in any english
> speaking country other than america.

Some U.S. spellings are based on English usage of a few hundred years
ago. The spelling has changed in England but not in the U.S. So, as an
Englishman, I think it best to be cautious when accusing people of
bastardising the language.

> i CAN spell and am impeccable with my grammar when i need to be. and
> this is not that place. what seemed funny to my previous critiques
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> grammatically correct. that was the whole point. they just didnt get
> it. i dont care.

I find that the less effort you put into making your question concise
and readable, the less effort others will put into helping you. If you
deliberately make life harder for others then you'll get even less help.

> who cares about if i use shorthand. they can all FEEL what im saying.

I find that the more you use shorthand, the harder it is for me to
"feel" what you are saying. If I give up reading your posts you probably
lose nothing. If many others feel the same as I,  you'll probably have a
more impoverished experience here.
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 19 Mar 2007 18:07 GMT
> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > i grew up within a family of school principals (mother and
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> lose nothing. If many others feel the same as I,  you'll probably have a
> more impoverished experience here.

ok.
finally someone with a valid point.
yes, english is considered to be one of the harder languages to learn
to one not native to it.
if i, in my bad character,  deviate from what they tried so hard to
finally "get" only to be thrown ANOTHER "bouncer" or "curve ball" from
my text'ese, it just tries their patience further. not the mannerly
thing to do.
1 thing always bugs be though.

WHY IS IT CONTINUALLY ACCEPTED, THAT AMERICA IS THE CENTRE OF THE
UNIVERSE?

why do customs have to mostly consist of the american way?
is this not the internet?
is the internet not international by its definition?
even if we limit this debate to the english speaking internet, for
there are foreign language forums, why should the american spelling be
given the nod for standardization and the british not? why cant they
co-exist? u learnt a programming language, how hard is it to TOUCH on
another real cultural language, just TOUCH, and make it easier for an
entire COUNTRY and its worldwide citizens?
would THAT not be the courteous thing to do?
noooooooo. WE have to use "new COLOR()". its NEVER the other way
around.

a recent post here used the word "netizen". if thats not slang, i dont
know what is?
should that be considered easy for foreigners to get?
all im saying is that i am not OVERDOING it and me being accused of
cussing (which is untrue) and being uppity, snobbish and brattish are
all qualities generated and aimed at ME for not fitting in to ur
country club. indeed i have been threatened with ostracization, not
because of being uppity or verbally violent, but because my grammer is
loose.
yet everyone understood everything that i said.

now i do get the concept that it is a little difficult to read
text'ese for some, but no where near so when compared to the lack of
proper paragraphing, the non-use or misuse of punctuation and the
general oblivious care to concise explanation when putting forward, or
responding to, a problem that is so rampant in these forums due to
individual ignorance.

i take pains to make my cases clear. whether its about the use of
text'ese or a java related problem i may have. that to me is what
keeps a forum running smoothly. this "stand" by u all against me for
not capitalizing my i's or shortening you to "u" is trivial. it takes
one reading of one of my posts to get used to it.
but...u dont WANT to get used to it because u see it as bastardizing
ur club language.
well thats just how MANY non-americans see americans. yet the
americans could care LESS.

it is appalling as a non american with a competitive olympic athlete
to endure the pre race show. ESPN is so obviously biased its childish.
"its MY ball".
i know this is off-topic but here we have a chance to really embrace
different cultures.
on ONE screen. a world standard or combination of.

what about a little 12 yr old GENIUS who has been typing IM'ese all
her life and her fingers just got accustomed to it. she now needs ur
help on this forum. guess what.
she is treated like me. poor thing may not be spiritually strong
enough in her formative yrs to do battle with u. she's intimidated and
bows out....of fear.
congratulations. ur club remains "pure".

Adrian
Thomas Fritsch - 19 Mar 2007 19:38 GMT
[...]
> yes, english is considered to be one of the harder languages to learn
> to one not native to it.
> if i, in my bad character,  deviate from what they tried so hard to
> finally "get" only to be thrown ANOTHER "bouncer" or "curve ball" from
> my text'ese, it just tries their patience further. not the mannerly
> thing to do.
Nice to hear this.
> 1 thing always bugs be though.
>
> WHY IS IT CONTINUALLY ACCEPTED, THAT AMERICA IS THE CENTRE OF THE
> UNIVERSE?
I don't think it is generally accepted (except in America, of course).

> why do customs have to mostly consist of the american way?
> is this not the internet?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> noooooooo. WE have to use "new COLOR()". its NEVER the other way
> around.
When I was at school (in the 1970s, Germany), we learnt British English
("colour", "licence", "theatre"), not American English ("color", "license",
"theater"). And I guess it was the same English as taught in other
countries of Europe, Asia and Africa. It would be interesting to know if
schools in these countries really have moved towards American English during
the last decades. (I doubt about it)

> a recent post here used the word "netizen". if thats not slang, i dont
> know what is?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> keeps a forum running smoothly. this "stand" by u all against me for
> not capitalizing my i's or shortening you to "u" is trivial. it takes
According to <http://dict.leo.org> "capitalizing" is American English, and
"capitalising" is British English. (Sorry, I couldn't resist ;-)
> one reading of one of my posts to get used to it.
> but...u dont WANT to get used to it because u see it as bastardizing
> ur club language.
> well thats just how MANY non-americans see americans. yet the
> americans could care LESS.
[...]

Signature

Thomas

adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 20 Mar 2007 00:44 GMT
On Mar 19, 1:38 pm, Thomas Fritsch <i.dont.like.s...@invalid.com>
wrote:
> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> --
> Thomas

no they havent. not australia, not the entire caribbean (except the
american owned islands), not europe, not england, not africa. im not
sure about south america(latin america) but i believe they learn
english the british (english) way.
in other words MOST of the world spell the language the original way.
"neighbour" and every other word ending in that suffix. but we're
kicked out of the club if we dont adhere to the minority.
in every other country, secs come b4 mins b4 hrs b4 days b4 mths b4
yrs. makes sense doesnt it? but we have to deal with the MONTH/DAY/
YEAR standard and indeed, the DEFAULT unless we change it. its not
even logical.
these r just examples.
this is the internet and we can stand up for who we are.
it just rubs me the wrong way having to spell COLOUR as COLOR. it goes
against my upbringing and it brings to mind the condescending feeling
if u ever use "ain't" as a child. thats how bad it feels using
"color". its just plain wrong. but i understand that being brought up
in america would not conjure these feelings in an american. so how
hard is it to include the british vers of spelling in computing
languages.
and while we're at it, why not incorporate some level of text'ese for
the younger folk.
the US is starting a campaign to entice school kids to enter into the
science programs.
shouldnt we?
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 20 Mar 2007 00:46 GMT
On Mar 19, 1:38 pm, Thomas Fritsch <i.dont.like.s...@invalid.com>
wrote:
> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:

> According to <http://dict.leo.org> "capitalizing" is American English, and
> "capitalising" is British English. (Sorry, I couldn't resist ;-)> one reading of one of my posts to get used to it.

oh and ur right:-)
so the merging has begun. can u say spanglish?
Joshua Cranmer - 20 Mar 2007 02:56 GMT
> why do customs have to mostly consist of the american way?
> is this not the internet?
> is the internet not international by its definition?
Try this on for size: the internet was *developed* by the *Pentagon* so
that critical *United States* services would not go down in the event of
a nuclear war. After the internet was privatized and bought by
*American* companies, the companies and organizations in charge of the
standards decided that because the biggest market was America (that is
after all where the internet was), specifications should be written
using American conventions so that people would not have to learn new
conventions. It is a 100% marketing decision: based in *America*,
written by *Americans*, used primarily by *Americans*, you're saying
that it should use *British* conventions? Why don't we then conduct all
government in Latin, it's just as foreign to Americans?

Finally, the internet is *not* international by definition: the internet
is an interconnected network; any time you have a WAN, it is an
internet. Nowhere does international stuff come into the definition.

> even if we limit this debate to the english speaking internet, for
> there are foreign language forums, why should the american spelling be
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> noooooooo. WE have to use "new COLOR()". its NEVER the other way
> around.

Sun is an American company, its programming language should then cater
primarily to its primary customers, Americans, so its conventions are
Americans. All major internet companies -- Microsoft, Apple, Google,
eBay, Amazaon, even the Unix developers are/were American; the first
programmable computer was American; precedent biases towards American
conventions. Just as the British Empire exported the British customs and
conventions, so too is the American exportation of technological
innovation exporting American conventions. If you want to write "new
Colour", get a British company (or consortium) to write a new
programming language that gets widely adopted. I'd gladly write it if
the language required it.
John W. Kennedy - 20 Mar 2007 03:31 GMT
> the first
> programmable computer was American;

Irrelevant. Let's not go jingo.

>  If you want to write "new
> Colour", get a British company (or consortium) to write a new
> programming language that gets widely adopted. I'd gladly write it if
> the language required it.

REXX (from IBM) uses hemisphere-neutral spelling. But that's easier to
do with language keywords than with library-object names.

Signature

John W. Kennedy
"The pathetic hope that the White House will turn a Caligula into a
Marcus Aurelius is as naïve as the fear that ultimate power inevitably
corrupts."
  -- James D. Barber (1930-2004)
* TagZilla 0.066 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org

Martin Gregorie - 20 Mar 2007 15:47 GMT
>> the first programmable computer was American;
>
> Irrelevant. Let's not go jingo.

Wrong too. Colossus predates ENIAC by a couple of years and Manchester's
 Baby was the first *stored program* computer. ENIAC was plug programmed.

ARPANET was the first packet switched WAN and Ethernet was a Xerox
invention, but
the first packet switched network was a LAN at the National Physical
Laboratory in
Teddington.

Signature

martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org       |

Joshua Cranmer - 21 Mar 2007 22:47 GMT
>>> the first programmable computer was American;
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Laboratory in
> Teddington.

I was referring to the ABC machine, but I'm not very good at my history
of computing. In addition, I was referring to the idea of an internet
(note the lowercase letter) being an "interconnected network," much
closer to ARPANET than a LAN. Of course, I might be wrong about that too.
adrian.bartholomew@gmail.com - 20 Mar 2007 05:44 GMT
> adrian.bartholo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > why do customs have to mostly consist of the american way?
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> programming language that gets widely adopted. I'd gladly write it if
> the language required it.

spoken like a true american. u should be proud. its YOUR ball after
all.

blacks should continue on with the chip on their shoulder because of
how it WAS?
so TIME plays no part in evolution eh?
i repeat. the internet BY DEFINITION is global.
that interconnected network u talked about? well its now worldwide.
when u talk, include the 4th dimension. u cant escape it.

SUN's major clients are no longer all american. java has spawned
software companies globally. but dont take my word for it. do ur own
research.
many software companies include a japanese version. why?
u sound like the brady bunch. america america america.
u r not an island. no matter how u may feel about it, u cannot survive
without the rest of the world. and vice versa. though only one of us
know it.
ironic since u are asking me to play nice with others.

Adrian
Alex Hunsley - 20 Mar 2007 10:18 GMT
>> why do customs have to mostly consist of the american way?
>> is this not the internet?
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>> noooooooo. WE have to use "new COLOR()". its NEVER the other way
>> around.

> the first
> programmable computer was American;

Natch, it would appear that the Germans got there first: heard of the
Zuse Z3?

http://www.primidi.com/2004/06/07.html

But who did or didn't make the first computer is side-stepping a little
into chest-beating territory...
Ian Wilson - 20 Mar 2007 11:21 GMT
>> why do customs have to mostly consist of the american way?
>> is this not the internet?
>> is the internet not international by its definition?
>
> Try this on for size: the internet was *developed* by the *Pentagon*

Wrong size? DARPA specifically. A lot of development work on the IMPs
was done by BBN wasn't it?

> so that critical *United States* services would not go down in the event of
> a nuclear war.

So far as I know that is something of an urban myth. The Arpanet was
designed to facilitate sharing of information and computing facilities
between four ARPA research sites. It didn't touch operational military
services. If Berkely had been wiped out by a nuclear strike I doubt the
presence or absence of Arpanet at the remaining three research sites
would have had any impact at all on the organisation of the counterstrike.

> After the internet was privatized and bought by
> *American* companies, the companies and organizations in charge of the
> standards decided that because the biggest market was America (that is
> after all where the internet was), specifications should be written
> using American conventions so that people would not have to learn new
> conventions.

Not according to the IETF RFC editor
http://www.rfc-editor.org/pipermail/rfc-interest/2006-February/000465.html

At the time of transition to commercial funding, the Internet was not
exclusively "in America" (by which I guess you exclude all countries in
the south and far north of the continent) I registered a commercial UK
domain with the US department of defence DDN NIC in March 1993.

> It is a 100% marketing decision: based in *America*,
> written by *Americans*, used primarily by *Americans*, you're saying
> that it should use *British* conventions? Why don't we then conduct all
> government in Latin, it's just as foreign to Americans?

Adrian has written some ridiculous things, but I don't think he said
that. Later he writes of coexistence between British English and
American English. Just as the RFC editor does. I think that's what he
meant. I don't care that much but it's unfair to misrepresent what he wrote.

> Finally, the internet is *not* international by definition:

Which definition are you referring to? reference?

Not this I guess:
http://www.nitrd.gov/fnc/Internet_res.html
  "Internet" refers to the *global* information system
  Questions or Systems problems should be reported to
  FNC_Webmaster@arpa.mil.

Frankly, I think ARPA ought to know.

> the internet
> is an interconnected network; any time you have a WAN, it is an
> internet. Nowhere does international stuff come into the definition.

Most commentators make a distinction between internet and Internet
(obviously Adrian disables himself from so doing) The Internet is
international and always has been (excluding early ARPANET)

http://som.csudh.edu/cis/lpress/history/arpamaps/arpanetmar77.jpg

Note LONDON in the bottom right corner using ICL and GEC computers.

OK so the Internet was a US invention, I guess if it hadn't existed I
might today be using an international JANET and cambridge-ring LANs. If
you want to belittle foreigners you could at least get your facts a bit
straighter :-)
Wojtek - 20 Mar 2007 14:55 GMT
Ian Wilson wrote :

>> so that critical *United States* services would not go down in the event of
>> a nuclear war.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> absence of Arpanet at the remaining three research sites would have had any
> impact at all on the organisation of the counterstrike.

The Internet protocol was developed to be "self-healing". So that
rather than a single defined path from machine to machine, the r