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manishkp84@gmail.com - 01 Feb 2007 11:02 GMT

i wanted u know which book is good 4 a jsp/j2ee/servlet beginers

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Lew - 01 Feb 2007 13:51 GMT

> i wanted u know which book is good 4 a jsp/j2ee/servlet beginers

/The Elements of Style/, by Strunk and White, is recommended in your case.

- Lew

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David Segall - 01 Feb 2007 15:42 GMT

>> i wanted u know which book is good 4 a jsp/j2ee/servlet beginers
>
>/The Elements of Style/, by Strunk and White, is recommended in your case.

I am willing to bet that his style in his native language is
infinitely better than yours. He took the trouble to post in English.
The least you can do is to suggest an appropriate book to improve his
English rather than a book aimed at proficient English speakers.

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Lew - 01 Feb 2007 18:38 GMT

manishkp84@gmail.com wrote:

>>> i wanted u know which book is good 4 a jsp/j2ee/servlet beginers

Lew wrote:

>> /The Elements of Style/, by Strunk and White, is recommended in your case.

> I am willing to bet that his style in his native language is
> infinitely better than yours. He took the trouble to post in English.
> The least you can do is to suggest an appropriate book to improve his
> English rather than a book aimed at proficient English speakers.

What TOEFL course teaches the spelling "u" for "you", "4" for "for", to
lower-case the pronoun "I"?

What makes you think the person's native language is not English? I see no
evidence for that assertion.

Unless you count "l33t" as a non-English language, which I might endorse.

Actually, I see no evidence the OP was asking a question. I parse the message
as "I wanted you to know which book is good for JSP/J2EE/servlet beginners",
but then they never told us.

Unless someone explicitly apologizes for their lack of command of English, I
will hold it a given that posting in English implies the most basic
familiarity with English syntax and orthography.

As to the point of the recommended book being too advanced, you are right.
Next time I will recommend /Dick and Jane/ and a subscription to /My Weekly
Reader/.

- Lew

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Luc The Perverse - 01 Feb 2007 19:33 GMT

> manishkp84@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> i wanted u know which book is good 4 a jsp/j2ee/servlet beginers
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Next time I will recommend /Dick and Jane/ and a subscription to /My
> Weekly Reader/.

My god! Is everyone on the edge or something?

What is wrong with answering questions with a gentle reminder to try to
avoid 1337 speak and text message abbreviations . . . rather than replying
with just an insult and no useful information?

I feel like I'm in alt.games.*

--
LTP

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Randolf Richardson - 02 Feb 2007 03:13 GMT

[sNip]

>> Unless someone explicitly apologizes for their lack of command of
>> English, I will hold it a given that posting in English implies the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> My god! Is everyone on the edge or something?

I rest my case that "proper English doesn't offend most people."

> What is wrong with answering questions with a gentle reminder to try to
> avoid 1337 speak and text message abbreviations . . . rather than
> replying with just an insult and no useful information?

Good point.

> I feel like I'm in alt.games.*

Maybe you should have cross-posted your reply. ;-D

[IRC command: /me ducks, then runs for cover...]

Signature

Randolf Richardson - kingpin+nntp@lumbercartel.ca
The Lumber Cartel, local 42 (Canadian branch)
http://www.lumbercartel.ca/

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Gordon Beaton - 01 Feb 2007 20:13 GMT

> What TOEFL course teaches the spelling "u" for "you", "4" for "for", to
> lower-case the pronoun "I"?

Does it really matter that much to you?

If someone on the street was asking for directions, would you
condescendingly refuse to provide help because they had used broken
English or too much slang?

If you don't *approve* of the language used by some posters, then
simply ignore their posts. If it bothers you to help, then don't.

I find it incredibly arrogant, petty and irritating that a small
number of regular posters to this group have taken it upon themselves
to "teach a lesson" to newbies and others coming here for help. Claims
that this somehow helps the newbie are ridiculous.

In a recent thread, someone asked why so many people work so hard to
answer other peoples questions. I find the current trend to be in
stark contrast with the altruism expressed in many of the replies to
that question.

/gordon

Signature

[ don't email me support questions or followups ]
g o r d o n + n e w s @ b a l d e r 1 3 . s e

Reply to this Message

Lew - 01 Feb 2007 20:39 GMT

> In a recent thread, someone asked why so many people work so hard to
> answer other peoples questions. I find the current trend to be in
> stark contrast with the altruism expressed in many of the replies to
> that question.

I apologize for not evincing appropriate generosity of spirit in my response.

- Lew

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Stefan Ram - 01 Feb 2007 23:19 GMT

>What TOEFL course teaches the spelling "u" for "you", "4" for "for"

»Secondary school students will be able to use text speak
in written examinations this year, legitimising a language
loved by teenagers.

The move has divided students and educators amid concerns
the move could damage the English language.

The second language of thousands of teenagers, text
language usually incorporates abbreviated words and
phrases such as txt for "text", lol for "laugh out loud"
or "lots of love" and CU for "see you".«

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3854612a11,00.html

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Lew - 01 Feb 2007 23:34 GMT

Lew writes:

>> What TOEFL course teaches the spelling "u" for "you", "4" for "for"

> »Secondary school students will be able to use text speak
> in written examinations this year, legitimising a language
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3854612a11,00.html

New Zealand teaches English as a foreign language?

My post was in response to someone thinking that the "leet" speak was from a
non-native English speaker. My point was that it was more typical of native
English speakers, as the New Zealand Qualifications Authority (NZQA) is
finding out, according to the link you posted.

I am sure looking forward to having a crop of illiterate, undereducated
coworkers to come out of this system. There was a recent thread where many
folks endorsed the notion that effective communication skills are necessary
for success as a programmer. If we do not help people recognize that "l33t"
does not effectively communicate, nor is professional, then they will be
hampered by their own lack of skill forever.

Do we not owe it to folks in this forum to help them advance?

- Lew

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Randolf Richardson - 02 Feb 2007 03:08 GMT

> Lew writes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> or "lots of love" and CU for "see you".«
>> http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3854612a11,00.html

That looks a lot like "a school system admitting that they've failed to
teach proper English."

[sNip]

> I am sure looking forward to having a crop of illiterate, undereducated
> coworkers to come out of this system. There was a recent thread where

Isn't that happening today? It has been reported numerous times on the
local radio that some North American university students can't read or
write, and yet somehow this isn't discovered until they are confronted
with an exam.

> many folks endorsed the notion that effective communication skills are
> necessary for success as a programmer. If we do not help people
> recognize that "l33t" does not effectively communicate, nor is
> professional, then they will be hampered by their own lack of skill
> forever.

Myself, and a number of people I know who are in positions to hire
people, ignore resumes that are written in this style because bad English
always reflects poorly on the public. Proper English style (or at least
an attempt to get it right) is something that can be taught, but typically
those who go out of their way to reduce English to this cryptic style make
themselves look ignorant.

> Do we not owe it to folks in this forum to help them advance?

I thought your response was both witty and relevant.

Signature

Randolf Richardson - kingpin+nntp@lumbercartel.ca
The Lumber Cartel, local 42 (Canadian branch)
http://www.lumbercartel.ca/

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Luc The Perverse - 02 Feb 2007 09:10 GMT

> Myself, and a number of people I know who are in positions to hire
> people, ignore resumes that are written in this style because bad English
> always reflects poorly on the public. Proper English style (or at least
> an attempt to get it right) is something that can be taught, but typically
> those who go out of their way to reduce English to this cryptic style make
> themselves look ignorant.

WTF? Resumés written in l33t?

That's insane.

The most unprofessional thing I ever did involved some mild sexual inuendo
about getting "the head" of a tree structure which I had named Betty. I
didn't remember doing it . . but I felt a little stupid during a code review
meeting once. Everyone chuckled - but I felt sincerely stupid about the
incident.
--
LTP

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Randolf Richardson - 03 Feb 2007 07:30 GMT

>> Myself, and a number of people I know who are in positions to hire
>> people, ignore resumes that are written in this style because bad
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> That's insane.

I suspect that many of these types eventually wind up in a political
career -- that seems to be a common destination for many insane people who
successfully dodge those really nice people who wear white coats and
always travel in pairs.

> The most unprofessional thing I ever did involved some mild sexual
> inuendo about getting "the head" of a tree structure which I had
> named Betty. I didn't remember doing it . . but I felt a little
> stupid during a code review meeting once. Everyone chuckled - but
> I felt sincerely stupid about the incident.

Skipped College, eh? ;-D

Signature

Randolf Richardson - kingpin+nntp@lumbercartel.ca
The Lumber Cartel, local 42 (Canadian branch)
http://www.lumbercartel.ca/

Reply to this Message

Luc The Perverse - 02 Feb 2007 08:59 GMT

> Do we not owe it to folks in this forum to help them advance?

It is neither your right nor your obligation to change people who happen
upon a forum you visit and ask a simple question in a manner that doesn't
appeal to you.

Oh wait . . . That is what I do with top posters and non quoters all the
time.

Ahem . . what I mean is that you should still answer their question . . and
be more "Gentle" in your approach.

--
LTP

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Andrew Thompson - 02 Feb 2007 09:56 GMT

On Feb 2, 7:59 pm, "Luc The Perverse"
<sll_noSpamlicious_z_XX...@cc.usu.edu> wrote:

> . . and
> be more "Gentle" in your approach.

I* save my 'gentle' for c.l.j.help, mostly.

Posters to c.l.j.p. can either be greatful
for any response, or 'get stuffed'.

* Not that I had made any posts on this
thread, but just throwing my 2c worth in.

Andrew T.

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Alex Hunsley - 01 Feb 2007 23:49 GMT

>>> i wanted u know which book is good 4 a jsp/j2ee/servlet beginers
>> /The Elements of Style/, by Strunk and White, is recommended in your case.
> I am willing to bet that his style in his native language is
> infinitely better than yours. He took the trouble to post in English.

No, he took the trouble to post in txt-english, which isn't quite English.

> The least you can do is to suggest an appropriate book to improve his
> English rather than a book aimed at proficient English speakers.

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