Java Forum / General / December 2006
Giving an application a window icon in a sensible way
Twisted - 20 Nov 2006 01:24 GMT Hrm. How to go about doing this?
I want to give a Java application a window icon in a manner that is independent of how it is installed, etc.
The trick is obtaining an Image object for myJFrame.setIconImage(). Loading it from a URL means it won't work without a working network connection, and I need to host the image somewhere. Every copy of the app running anywhere in the world will, on startup, hit that host with a request for the file(!). Loading it from a file path requires a separate installer that sets the image into a specific directory. Putting it in a JAR file with the app means learning a big new chunk of API, plus it won't work when running in the development environment rather than as a standalone executable JAR.
This suggests doing the ListMessageBundle sort of thing, and somehow packaging it as a class -- an Image subclass, presumably. Is there a tool for turning a jpeg, gif, or png into Java source code for an Image subclass that will, when instantiated, behave as the appropriate jpeg?
I don't have the google-fu to find this -- searches for queries like "image resource class java" didn't do much for me. Damn, we need *real* natural language search. :P
Larry Barowski - 20 Nov 2006 01:53 GMT > Hrm. How to go about doing this? > > I want to give a Java application a window icon in a manner that is > independent of how it is installed, etc. The usual method is to use Class.getResource(), which will work whether the class and icon are in a jar file or not.
Twisted - 20 Nov 2006 03:24 GMT > > Hrm. How to go about doing this? > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The usual method is to use Class.getResource(), which will work > whether the class and icon are in a jar file or not. Where does it look, if the class isn't in a jar file? The directory with the .class file?
Chris Smith - 21 Nov 2006 16:06 GMT > > The usual method is to use Class.getResource(), which will work > > whether the class and icon are in a jar file or not. > > Where does it look, if the class isn't in a jar file? The directory > with the .class file? Yes.
 Signature Chris Smith
Mark Rafn - 20 Nov 2006 02:06 GMT >I want to give a Java application a window icon in a manner that is >independent of how it is installed, etc. >The trick is obtaining an Image object for myJFrame.setIconImage(). >Loading it from a URL means it won't work without a working network >connection, and I need to host the image somewhere. Not at all. A URL doesn't always mean http. It could be a file URL, or a resource URL inside your jarfile.
>Putting it in a JAR file with the app means learning a big new chunk of >API, plus it won't work when running in the development environment >rather than as a standalone executable JAR. URL imgURL = getClass().getClassLoader().getResource("img/path");
Works if the image is in a jarfile OR a directory on the classpath. -- Mark Rafn dagon@dagon.net <http://www.dagon.net/>
Twisted - 20 Nov 2006 04:00 GMT > >I want to give a Java application a window icon in a manner that is > >independent of how it is installed, etc. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Not at all. A URL doesn't always mean http. It could be a file URL, or a > resource URL inside your jarfile. File URL and jar I was considering separately.
> URL imgURL = getClass().getClassLoader().getResource("img/path"); > > Works if the image is in a jarfile OR a directory on the classpath. Hrm.
Anyway I found something interesting. My google-fu isn't as weak as I thought -- I was eventually able to dredge up a way to encode icons into a class file.
It involved exporting the file from photoshop as an XPM, pasting most of the result into the declaration of a string array, and feeding it to a class named XImageSource. Of course, this turned out not to be a standard library class, and tracking it down posed its own challenge (during which time Firefox crashed for the second time today -- it hit a crapplet on a page somewhere and died the number. It actually tottered along sort-of-working until I quit it, but wouldn't load anything -- and after being quit I couldn't start a new instance until I terminated a bunch of firefox-related processes that were idling in the task manager that didn't have any UI or cpu activity!).
Naturally, the XImageSource class had dependencies to track down as well.
Naturally, one of those dependencies had a bug -- XpmParser. It had
colors = new int[charsPerPixel*2];
where it appeared to need
colors = new int[(charsPerPixel == 2)?65536:256];
since it actually multiplies one char by 256 and adds a second in the latter case, and was throwing ArrayOutOfBoundsExceptions like they were going out of style.
Naturally, the author of those classes included a copyright notice and will probably sue me for copyright infringement for fixing their bug without permission, too, now that I've copped to this heinous act in a public newsgroup posting.
But it actually works, and the source code is completely self-contained, without requiring any extra files besides the .java files. Which is what I was hoping to accomplish.
Thanks anyway. :)
Twisted - 20 Nov 2006 05:00 GMT > But it actually works, and the source code is completely > self-contained, without requiring any extra files besides the .java > files. Which is what I was hoping to accomplish. Update: with another hack and more copyright infringement (further editing the XImageSource code) I now have working transparency as well -- the first color index set to perfectly white (255, 255, 255) in the XPM disappears. The thing looks far better in my task list now.
Patricia Shanahan - 20 Nov 2006 05:14 GMT >> But it actually works, and the source code is completely >> self-contained, without requiring any extra files besides the .java [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -- the first color index set to perfectly white (255, 255, 255) in the > XPM disappears. The thing looks far better in my task list now. What's the advantage of this approach compared to using getResource?
Patricia
Twisted - 20 Nov 2006 05:47 GMT > What's the advantage of this approach compared to using getResource? It's built right into the frame subclass file it applies to? It doesn't need to be put in some jar file, then retrieved, then all kinds of recovery code written to deal with the IOExceptions that can result if Something Goes Wrong(tm)? No need to fiddle with classpath? Everything is self-contained in the source files?
Andrew Thompson - 20 Nov 2006 06:07 GMT > > What's the advantage of this approach compared to using getResource? > > It's built right into the frame subclass file it applies to? Why would it? It's built into the classloader that many different classes use to get paths to resources.
> It doesn't need to be put in some jar file, then retrieved, Why? Where were you intending to put it.. the cookie jar?
>...then all > kinds of recovery code written to deal with the IOExceptions that can > result if Something Goes Wrong(tm)? Oh, of course, if nothing could conceivably go wrong with your own home rolled method* - don't bother with all this getResource crap.
* Such as the image showing 'all white'.
> No need to fiddle with classpath? Nope. You just need to specify it correctly for the application (once).
> Everything is self-contained in the source files? Now you're ust being silly. Are you intending to put - properties files - help text - localization data - any of many other resources.. ..'stitched in' to the code?
Therein lies the path to madness, but (checks sig.) 'Twisted'.. I see your on your way there, so...
Go for it! ;-)
Andrew T.
Twisted - 20 Nov 2006 06:45 GMT > > > What's the advantage of this approach compared to using getResource? > > > > It's built right into the frame subclass file it applies to? > > Why would it? It's built into the classloader that > many different classes use to get paths to resources. Eh -- getResource is, but the resource itself isn't.
> Oh, of course, if nothing could conceivably go wrong > with your own home rolled method* - don't bother with > all this getResource crap. > > * Such as the image showing 'all white'. It works fine, and doesn't do any I/O to get it. The only way for something to go wrong would be if classloading went wrong at a fundamental level, rather than some image on disk somewhere not being found. If classloading goes that wrong, the image not being loaded is the least of my problems.
> Now you're ust being silly. Are you intending to put > - properties files > - help text > - localization data > - any of many other resources.. > ..'stitched in' to the code? If it gets complex enough to involve such, then there will be separate files for some of those, and I'll have to worry about how to get a user directory in a system-independent way to put the properties files in, and how to get the app's directory to look for help and non-English localizations in.
Andrew Thompson - 20 Nov 2006 09:33 GMT > > ...Are you intending to put > > - properties files [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > files for some of those, and I'll have to worry about how to get a user > directory Try System.getProperty("user.home");
(then make a subdirectory based on you main's package name, to contain the resources - so they don't get wiped by other applications)
>...in a system-independent way to put the properties files in, > and how to get the app's directory to look for help and non-English > localizations in. JWS can handle localisation for you (in the sense of delivering the correct files for each locale), finding and using those localised resources would then most naturally be done using getResource().
Java access to (internal - program specific) files is heavily based around getResource(), I suspect things will go a lot quicker for you once you have it working for you.
Note: I never found a way to use getResource() for both jar'd and 'loose' resources, but with ant build files (or anything else with even half Ant's abilities) it is trivial to stamp out a jar(s) of the current project, and launch it(/them).
Andrew T.
Twisted - 20 Nov 2006 10:10 GMT > Note: I never found a way to use getResource() for > both jar'd and 'loose' resources, but with ant build files > (or anything else with even half Ant's abilities) it > is trivial to stamp out a jar(s) of the current project, > and launch it(/them). Of course, for that I'd need Ant, and to know how to use it...
Joe Attardi - 20 Nov 2006 19:16 GMT > Of course, for that I'd need Ant, and to know how to use it... Learning how to use Ant is a bad thing why? It's a very valuable and widely used development tool in the Java world.
Chris Smith - 20 Nov 2006 18:37 GMT > > Now you're ust being silly. Are you intending to put > > - properties files [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and how to get the app's directory to look for help and non-English > localizations in. Actually, getResource is exactly the solution to everything you are mentioning. Nothing is stored in some directory on some disk somewhere. Everything is stored in the same JAR file with all of your code; one file that you can distribute around that contains the whole application. All this, and you don't have to do kludgy things like build images into the source code of your classes.
(By the way, if exceptions should never happen, as is the case when using getResource on a resource that's packaged in a JAR file with your application, then it's pretty trivial to add
try { ... } catch (SomeException e) { throw new RuntimeException(e); }
No information is lost, and you don't have to write any complex error reporting code or anything like that. Just be careful that you don't catch some exceptions indicating real plausible problems like this.)
 Signature Chris Smith
Karl Uppiano - 25 Nov 2006 04:20 GMT >> > Now you're ust being silly. Are you intending to put >> > - properties files [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > reporting code or anything like that. Just be careful that you don't > catch some exceptions indicating real plausible problems like this.) Not only that, but it is much easier to localize this way, should that become a requirement. Putting resources into the code itself is what we've been trying to get away from for all these years. That's why we have rc files, resource bundles, and so on.
Mark Rafn - 20 Nov 2006 05:13 GMT >> >Loading it from a URL means it won't work without a working network >> >connection, and I need to host the image somewhere.
>> Not at all. A URL doesn't always mean http. It could be a file URL, or a >> resource URL inside your jarfile. >> URL imgURL = getClass().getClassLoader().getResource("img/path"); >> Works if the image is in a jarfile OR a directory on the classpath.
>Anyway I found something interesting. My google-fu isn't as weak as I >thought -- I was eventually able to dredge up a way to encode icons >into a class file. It doesn't need to be a class file for the classloader to find it as a resource.
>It involved exporting the file from photoshop as an XPM, pasting most >of the result into the declaration of a string array, and feeding it to >a class named XImageSource. ...
>Naturally, the XImageSource class had dependencies to track down as >well. ...
>But it actually works, and the source code is completely >self-contained, without requiring any extra files besides the .java >files. Which is what I was hoping to accomplish. Wouldn't it be MUCH easier to put gif/jpg/png files directly into the jar, then let the classloader find them using getResource or getResourceAsStream? -- Mark Rafn dagon@dagon.net <http://www.dagon.net/>
Twisted - 20 Nov 2006 05:49 GMT > Wouldn't it be MUCH easier to put gif/jpg/png files directly into the jar, > then let the classloader find them using getResource or getResourceAsStream? First of all, I don't *have* a jar, at least not yet.
Second of all, this is the kind of thing that should really just work without being able to bomb with IOExceptions and suchlike, in my opinion. Retrieving even the most basic stuff from a bunch of external files adds unnecessary points of failure, and gobs of extra recovery code to check for and cope with anything that goes wrong. This way, it Just Works(tm). :)
Daniel Pitts - 20 Nov 2006 21:16 GMT > > Wouldn't it be MUCH easier to put gif/jpg/png files directly into the jar, > > then let the classloader find them using getResource or getResourceAsStream? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > code to check for and cope with anything that goes wrong. This way, it > Just Works(tm). :) "It Just Works(TM)" is considered a very bad approach to software design. Doing things that "Just Work" versus doing things that "Work Right", tends to save a minute now and cost a week later. What happens when you have three icons? 10? What happens when you rebrand those 10 icons? Having them as actual image files rather than converting them. Ouch.
BTW, if you REALLY wanted to go that route, you could do a byte dump of the original (png/jpeg/gif) image, and use imageio and a ByteArrayInputStream (there is such a thing, right?). Releasing you from using the apperantly buggy XImageWhatchamawhosit. Although, I wouldn't recommend either approach.
Twisted - 20 Nov 2006 23:06 GMT I find the phenomenon of topic drift curious. There seems to be a recurrent pattern in this group in which a person creates an initial topic of some Java related sort or another and the topic quickly drifts to criticism and "bashing" of the person that started the thread.
This does nothing to encourage people to seek information here.
Perhaps some people need to leave their egos at home when they visit?
Re: the most recent round of (universally hostile-toned) replies, I'd already mentioned that bundling stuff in a jar is not a complication I wish to handle just yet. Particularly as it means the app has to look for resources in two places: in a jar with the app (where they'd be when the app's been packaged and installed somewhere) and in my computer's specific directory structure somewhere (where they'd be during development). Someone mentioned putting them along the class path and their being found automatically if they're there or in a jar with the app; but then I need to set my class path on my development machine to include the source directory for every project that has resources, don't I? Ouch. Or I can track down, download, study, and use a new build tool (when Eclipse has been serving me well so far)...it sounds to me like if I'd gone that route I'd still be fiddling with something merely preliminary to getting the icon to work *now*, around 48 hours later. When there's a lot more resources, and optional/switchable ones like internationalization resources, then that looks like a wise investment of time; when there's only the one little 32x32 gif, it seems more like a *waste* of time.
Thomas Kellerer - 20 Nov 2006 23:26 GMT Twisted wrote on 21.11.2006 00:06:
> Re: the most recent round of (universally hostile-toned) replies, I'd > already mentioned that bundling stuff in a jar is not a complication I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > machine to include the source directory for every project that has > resources, don't I? Hmm. Netbeans does that automatically for me. I have all my resource in my Java source directory (gif, properties, xml and txt files). When I build my project, NetBeans compiles my Java classes (of course) and then copies all non-Java files to the classpath (according to their location in the Source path).
I use getClassLoader().getResourceAsStream() in several places and this approach has never given me any headaches. It works fine from within NetBeans and as well when I distribute my (Swing) application as a jar file.
Maybe you can convince Eclipse to copy the non-Java files as well?
My 0.02€
Thomas
Twisted - 21 Nov 2006 14:27 GMT > Hmm. Netbeans does that automatically for me. I have all my resource in my Java > source directory (gif, properties, xml and txt files). Beans, net or otherwise, are outside my scope at least right now.
There's *way* too much Java-related stuff out there (even just from Sun) to expect any one person to know and use it all.
Thomas Kellerer - 22 Nov 2006 00:00 GMT Twisted wrote on 21.11.2006 15:27:
>> Hmm. Netbeans does that automatically for me. I have all my resource in my Java >> source directory (gif, properties, xml and txt files). > > Beans, net or otherwise, are outside my scope at least right now. NetBeans is an IDE just like Eclipse...
Twisted - 22 Nov 2006 03:52 GMT > Twisted wrote on 21.11.2006 15:27: > >> Hmm. Netbeans does that automatically for me. I have all my resource in my Java [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > NetBeans is an IDE just like Eclipse... Aren't beans a RAD tool? I'm allergic to RAD tools. RAD tools are considered harmful. You probably shouldn't use RAD tools anymore -- I think you've already taken a possibly-lethal RAD dose to the brainstem...
Thomas Kellerer - 22 Nov 2006 07:09 GMT >> Twisted wrote on 21.11.2006 15:27: >>>> Hmm. Netbeans does that automatically for me. I have all my resource in my Java [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > think you've already taken a possibly-lethal RAD dose to the > brainstem... I'm *not* talking about RAD, I'm talking about how an IDE can actually support what you want to do. And I'm sure Eclipse can do the same.
Btw: NetBeans is probably (out-of-the-bxo) the most complete free IDE for Web Development and EJB development that you can currently get.
Thomas
 Signature It's not a RootKit - it's a Sony
Oliver Wong - 22 Nov 2006 15:10 GMT >>> Twisted wrote on 21.11.2006 15:27: >>>>> Hmm. Netbeans does that automatically for me. I have all my resource [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I'm *not* talking about RAD, I'm talking about how an IDE can actually > support what you want to do. And I'm sure Eclipse can do the same. More explicitly, beans and NetBeans are not the same thing. It sounds like Twisted is thinking of Beans where Thomas is talking about NetBeans.
- Oliver
Twisted - 22 Nov 2006 20:24 GMT > More explicitly, beans and NetBeans are not the same thing. Well, judging by the name, NetBeans are beans *with internet added!* or something of the sort. :) (Kind of the way half the current US patent applications are some preexisting business model *with internet added!* ...)
Daniel Pitts - 23 Nov 2006 18:19 GMT > > More explicitly, beans and NetBeans are not the same thing. > > Well, judging by the name, NetBeans are beans *with internet added!* or > something of the sort. :) (Kind of the way half the current US patent > applications are some preexisting business model *with internet added!* > ...) NetBeans is an IDE, similar to Eclipse and JetBrains' IDEA.
As a matter of fact, I believe NetBeans is the IDE provided on Sun's website.
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/download-netbeans.html
Perhaps if you weren't afraid of asking google, even if you doubt the results are going to be relevant, you'd learn something.
You have proven to me that you make far too many assumptions without even a cursory amount of research to back it up.
nebulous99@gmail.com - 25 Nov 2006 00:20 GMT > You have proven to me that you make far too many assumptions without > even a cursory amount of research to back it up. You have proven to me that you're a judgmental prick. You seem unable to avoid arguing against the person ("You make far too many ...") when you disagree with something they said. The only "assumptions" I make are the guesses we all make given that none of us are omniscient. If something doesn't look promising we ignore it unless given reason to think it might be useful after all. At least, those of us who aren't gods do. Those here who think they are can go fornicate atop Mount Zeus or whatever it is gods do and quit being arrogant pricks in Usenet newsgroups. :)
I don't like people telling me that I'm some sort of idiot for not either a) knowing something I can't very well have been *born* knowing and that isn't part of a basic Western education or b) researching in-depth every single unfamiliar thing that anyone ever happens to mention in my earshot (I'd spend all my time researching and none doing anything else, including eating or sleeping).
I need more information to decide what might be worth "researching" and what isn't. Where that information is lacking, don't get mad at me or call me names because I decide it is or isn't and you think I made the wrong decision. If you have such a strong opinion that it isn't or is, then MAKE SURE YOU MENTION INFORMATION THAT WOULD LEAD OTHERS UNFAMILIAR WITH THE THING IN QUESTION TO DRAW THE SAME CONCLUSION! For instance, if you're damn sure fizzledibs are useful to a person, unless this is going to be self-evident to someone who hadn't heard of fizzledibs an hour ago, don't simply drop the name "fizzledibs"; include a concise explanation of what these are including at least one reason why that particular person might find them of interest. And consider also, that if you're a fizzledib expert you might be overly inclined to prescribe them as the solution to every problem; when you have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Consider the particular person's circumstances and decide whether they fall into the (perhaps small) category of exceptions where fizzledibs *aren't* useful, rather than just reflexively posting "Use fizzledibs! They're great" in response to nearly everything and then, if asked "What are fizzledibs?" or "Fizzledibs sound like some kind of X but I need Y instead", "What kind of an idiot are you?".
Oliver Wong - 27 Nov 2006 18:19 GMT > The only "assumptions" I make > are the guesses we all make given that none of us are omniscient. Not all of us make guesses whenever we don't know something. Some of us try to learn more about a given topic before forming an opinion on it.
- Oliver
Twisted - 28 Nov 2006 12:26 GMT > Not all of us make guesses whenever we don't know something. Some of us > try to learn more about a given topic before forming an opinion on it. Not *everything* though.
If ten thousand links, unfamiliar tools or file types, or whatever get mentioned in a day, I clearly don't have time to research more than a fraction of them. The rest I must judge by their covers, so to speak, in deciding what to do with them (if anything; usually this means doing nothing with them).
More generally, if any of us looked in depth into everything that got mentioned in our earshot, we'd spend precious little time doing anything else.
ALL people use heuristics to judge what's immediately promising or threatening and what looks like it can safely be ignored for now, just in order to filter all the stuff that goes on around them down to something manageable.
If people then get on my case for not having instantly and magically perceived the otherwise-totally-unobvious relevance of foo, then they have no case, so to speak.
Oliver Wong - 28 Nov 2006 15:36 GMT >> Not all of us make guesses whenever we don't know something. Some of >> us [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in deciding what to do with them (if anything; usually this means doing > nothing with them). Two rebuttals:
(1) If it were ten thousand links, tools and file types, then yes I'd probably be overwhelmed too. If it were more like 50, then I can dedicate a 30 seconds google search to each, and it'd take less than half an hour to get a basic understand of each of them.
(2) As an alternative to judging them by their cover, you could withhold judgment until the next day, week, or month, after which point you WILL have spent that 30 seconds doing the google search and learning enough to avoid making arbitrary guesses about the nature of the link/tool/file-type in question.
For example, rather than saying "There's no way a search for 'ant' could return any information on the Ant tool", you could spend literally 7 seconds (I timed myself) entering "ant" into google, and reading the summary that comes up: "Apache Ant - Welcome: Pure Java build tool, simpler and easier to use than GNU Make." to confirm that, yes, they are talking about the build tool, and not the insect.
In contrast, it takes me longer than 7 seconds to type "There's no way a search for 'ant' could return any information on the Ant tool" (it took 9 seconds). So if your concern is optimal allocation of your time, you'd do a lot better to investigate the links/tools/file-types presented to you, than posting on the newsgroup about how you don't know anything about these links/tools/file-types.
- Oliver
Twisted - 29 Nov 2006 12:48 GMT > > If ten thousand links, unfamiliar tools or file types, or whatever get > > mentioned in a day, I clearly don't have time to research more than a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 30 seconds google search to each, and it'd take less than half an hour to > get a basic understand of each of them. That almost is half an hour, and you've made yourself vulnerable to a denial-of-service attack wherein people post large numbers of links and your time is substantially consumed.
An hour spent rebutting crud in this group, plus this, and the time I'm losing here increases by 50%.
And all of this assumes, generously, your 30 second estimate. It takes maybe 30 seconds to crank up a web browser, put in a search, and examine the list of hits. Refining the query, if that proves necessary, adds more time. Actually examining the pages linked to adds even more.
> (2) As an alternative to judging them by their cover, you could withhold > judgment until the next day, week, or month... I was discussing my decision to follow or not follow a link. I have to make a snap decision using the information available at that time. I can't defer it; that means investing the time to bookmark the link or something so that it's still around, which means I've already made the decision to spend (waste?) time on the link in question.
Why are we even discussing this? It should be obvious that no-one is going to click on more than a tiny minority of the links they see, here or anywhere else, and my being exactly typical in that regard should be a non-issue.
[Seven second estimate]
This is frankly ludicrous. It takes that to reach for the start button, find the web browser in the clutter, and click it. It takes another seven (at least) for a browser to actually appear and be ready for input. It takes more time still to get to Google, and only then is there a few seconds spent typing the query and hitting enter.
Of course, you may have some kind of shortcut, like parking a browser window somewhere guzzling RAM open to Google or something, but I don't think it reasonable to expect everyone who reads this group to do likewise!
> So if your concern is optimal allocation of your time, you'd do a > lot better to investigate the links/tools/file-types presented to you, than > posting on the newsgroup about how you don't know anything about these > links/tools/file-types. I don't doubt that I could have found some Web page regarding the tool in under five minutes. But you see, I didn't want to. 1. People were singing its praises implying it might do something useful for my current project right now. I doubted some Web page would know anything about my current project at all, so asking people here for more information made a lot more sense; it would be more specific to what I was doing, rather than generic. 2. I wasn't so much interested in the download URL to download it as I was interested in why people had conspicuously avoided mentioning the download URL despite otherwise strongly endorsing it. Now I see that my attackers may have intended it as a trap, so at some point I'd mention the curious lack of any mention of it and then they could pounce on my "obvious lack of google-fu" or whatever they figured to pounce on. If so, several of them are subtler than flaming usenet loudmouths usually are. 3. I'd already determined that at the current juncture I'd gain nothing from an automated build tool versus whatever amount of time spent investigating one, whether 7 seconds (your lowest estimate), 25 minutes (your highest), or something else.
Oliver Wong - 29 Nov 2006 14:51 GMT >> (2) As an alternative to judging them by their cover, you could >> withhold [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > or anywhere else, and my being exactly typical in that regard should be > a non-issue. Well, I knew about Ant, and you didn't. If you want to be more like me in this regard, maybe you should start doing the things I do, such as clicking on more links. If you're happy staying the way you are, then don't click links.
[...]
> 1. People were singing its praises implying it might do something > useful for my current project right now. I doubted some Web page would > know anything about my current project at all, so asking people here > for more information made a lot more sense; it would be more specific > to what I was doing, rather than generic. Does anyone on this group really know anything about your project? I certainly don't.
> 2. I wasn't so much interested in the download URL to download it as I > was interested in why people had conspicuously avoided mentioning the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > so, several of them are subtler than flaming usenet loudmouths usually > are. Haha. It's not your "obvious lack of google-fu" that they're pouncing on, but your "obvious lack of effort". The problem wasn't that you put in the wrong Google query. The problem is that you didn't even bother to try googling at all. And the even bigger problem is that you automatically assumed that Google would not return useful results without even trying it. And an even bigger problem than that was when people told you googling for "ant" *would* return a useful result, you argued with them, despite that there existed a trivial, easy to repeat experiment to demonstrate that you were wrong: namely to try actually googling for "ant".
So really, your google-fu level had nothing to do with why you got pounced on, IMHO.
> 3. I'd already determined that at the current juncture I'd gain nothing > from an automated build tool versus whatever amount of time spent > investigating one, whether 7 seconds (your lowest estimate), 25 minutes > (your highest), or something else. Right, it's too late now, since you've already spent more than 7 seconds on it. I'm just giving you advice for next time something like this comes up.
- Oliver
Twisted - 29 Nov 2006 17:07 GMT > The problem is that you didn't even bother to try googling at all. I never do for a three-letter query. 999,999 times out of a million it will be a waste of time.
[hostile stuff deleted]
So, showing your true colors at last? You're just another one of them?
[snip everything else]
Good day.
Oliver Wong - 29 Nov 2006 17:47 GMT >> The problem is that you didn't even bother to try googling at all. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > [snip everything else] Put an honest effort to read through this part from the original post:
<quote> It's not your "obvious lack of google-fu" that they're pouncing on, but your "obvious lack of effort". The problem wasn't that you put in the wrong Google query. The problem is that you didn't even bother to try googling at all. And the even bigger problem is that you automatically assumed that Google would not return useful results without even trying it. And an even bigger problem than that was when people told you googling for "ant" *would* return a useful result, you argued with them, despite that there existed a trivial, easy to repeat experiment to demonstrate that you were wrong: namely to try actually googling for "ant".
So really, your google-fu level had nothing to do with why you got pounced on, IMHO. </quote>
You don't need to agree on whether or not these things I'm claiming you did are actually problems or not, but do you agree that you did in fact do all of these things?
If people were getting angry at you because your google-fu level was very low, then they'd probably be getting angry at you unreasonably. But I think the reason they're getting angry has nothing to do with google-fu. And if you want to know how to avoid having people getting angry at you, the first step is to figure out what it is that you're doing that's making them angry.
- Oliver
Twisted - 29 Nov 2006 18:14 GMT [hostilities, most of them copied rather than original, deleted]
Stop attacking me at once. It is not correct to try to justify my being pounced on, because there can never be a justification for it.
> You don't need to agree on whether or not these things I'm claiming you > did are actually problems or not, but do you agree that you did in fact do > all of these things? I don't agree that I was "too lazy to" anything, or any of the other insulting things you insinuated!
> And > if you want to know how to avoid having people getting angry at you, the > first step is to figure out what it is that you're doing that's making them > angry. I am not doing ANYTHING to make them angry -- at least nothing that's actually WRONG, and I refuse to change behavior that ISN'T wrong just because someone tries to browbeat me into doing so. I don't take kindly to intimidation, blackmail, or threats!
In any case I don't think the worst of the f.ckers ARE angry. I think they get their jollies out of picking on n00bs. They don't act angry; they act like predatory animals closing in on a potential kill. I should know; I've seen the difference (e.g. in my cats). They are sociopaths that need to be put in their place (and certainly not handed victory on a silver platter, as you keep advocating!)...
Oliver Wong - 29 Nov 2006 18:23 GMT > [hostilities, most of them copied rather than original, deleted] > > Stop attacking me at once. It is not correct to try to justify my being > pounced on, because there can never be a justification for it. I disagree that I'm attacking you. I also disagree that I'm justifying your being pounced on.
>> You don't need to agree on whether or not these things I'm claiming >> you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I don't agree that I was "too lazy to" anything, or any of the other > insulting things you insinuated! So you disagree that <quote>you didn't even bother to try googling at all</quote>? Meaning you *did* try to google for "ant"?
>> And >> if you want to know how to avoid having people getting angry at you, the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > actually WRONG, and I refuse to change behavior that ISN'T wrong just > because someone tries to browbeat me into doing so. I didn't claim what you did was wrong. Only that you did actually do something, and that people reacted to the thing which you did.
> I don't take kindly > to intimidation, blackmail, or threats! I don't know how you inferred intimidation, blackmail, or threats, from my post.
> In any case I don't think the worst of the f.ckers ARE angry. Perhaps angry was the wrong choice of word then. I don't know what the right choice of word is, so let's just call it "FOOBAR". If you don't want people to get FOOBAR at you, then the first step is to figure out what it is you're doing that's making them FOOBAR.
If you're actively denying that you're doing anything to make them FOOBAR, then it's going to be much harder for you to figure out how to stop them from getting FOOBAR at you.
- Oliver
Twisted - 29 Nov 2006 23:36 GMT > I disagree that I'm attacking you. I also disagree that I'm justifying > your being pounced on. You called me a name! How else am I going to interpret that? :P
> So you disagree that <quote>you didn't even bother to try googling at > all</quote>? Meaning you *did* try to google for "ant"? No, I disagree that I was *supposed* to. Not given that I wasn't actually seeking to download a copy at that time.
> > I am not doing ANYTHING to make them angry -- at least nothing that's > > actually WRONG, and I refuse to change behavior that ISN'T wrong just > > because someone tries to browbeat me into doing so. > > I didn't claim what you did was wrong. Only that you did actually do > something, and that people reacted to the thing which you did. If I did nothing wrong, then those people that attacked me reacted wrong, and you should take the matter up with them.
> I don't know how you inferred intimidation, blackmail, or threats, from > my post. I didn't -- not directly. But you indicated that people's attacks on me were because of something I did. If one assumes that the purpose of such attacks is to change the behavior, then since a) the behavior in question can't have been wrong (it came from me after all) and b) regardless this is an unmoderated group so nobody has any right to claim "police powers", coercive attempts to control my behavior with a threat of negative consequences constitute blackmail.
> Perhaps angry was the wrong choice of word then. I don't know what the > right choice of word is, so let's just call it "FOOBAR". If you don't want > people to get FOOBAR at you, then the first step is to figure out what it is > you're doing that's making them FOOBAR. I'm not -- psychopaths who get their kicks out of targeting a random newbie from time to time to harass and drive up the proverbial wall are "made to" by their own twisted psychologies. My coming up as the target is then an unlucky roll of the dice -- unlucky for me, anyway, but damn fortunate for some other poor soul.
Equally obviously, there is no other viable explanation, since I can hardly have been targeted for having done something wrong (I don't do things wrong) or for my race or whatever (it isn't visible here)...
> If you're actively denying that you're doing anything to make them > FOOBAR Of course I am actively denying it. If their behavior toward me was not more or less a random choice by one and then a bandwagon piling-on by others, it would mean that I had to have done something to provoke them. But I did nothing provocative at all, certainly not initially when all this started.
blmblm@myrealbox.com - 30 Nov 2006 11:18 GMT [ snip ]
> a) the behavior in > question can't have been wrong (it came from me after all) [ snip ]
> (I don't do things wrong) [ snip ]
Yes, I've snipped a lot of context, but I think these two statements can stand on their own and should be noted by people who might miss them in your longer post.
 Signature B. L. Massingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
Twisted - 30 Nov 2006 18:33 GMT [Snip some quoted material taken out of context]
> Yes, I've snipped a lot of context, but I think these two statements > can stand on their own and should be noted by people who might miss > them in your longer post. (Mis)quoting people out of context is generally un-useful, and sometimes a part of an intentional attempt at deception or manipulation of opinion.
wesley.hall@gmail.com - 30 Nov 2006 21:21 GMT > [Snip some quoted material taken out of context] > > Yes, I've snipped a lot of context, but I think these two statements [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sometimes a part of an intentional attempt at deception or manipulation > of opinion. ...but it is OK for you to do it right?
wesley.hall@gmail.com - 30 Nov 2006 21:43 GMT > [Snip some quoted material taken out of context] > > Yes, I've snipped a lot of context, but I think these two statements [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sometimes a part of an intentional attempt at deception or manipulation > of opinion. ...But it's OK when you do it right?
blmblm@myrealbox.com - 01 Dec 2006 10:29 GMT > [Snip some quoted material taken out of context] > > Yes, I've snipped a lot of context, but I think these two statements [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sometimes a part of an intentional attempt at deception or manipulation > of opinion. Agreed.
However, I don't agree that the snipped quotes (in which you seem to be saying that you never do anything wrong) constitute "quoting out of context". As best I can tell from your other posts in this thread, you *do* believe that you never do anything wrong. How is it quoting out of context to isolate particularly explicit statements of this belief? unless the remarks were meant as hyperbole or sarcasm and I didn't catch that?
 Signature B. L. Massingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
Twisted - 01 Dec 2006 16:30 GMT > However, I don't agree that the snipped quotes (in which you seem > to be saying that you never do anything wrong) Not knowingly, no. (And you can't fault me for not knowing, if it's not self-evident, part of a standard Western education, basic Java programming knowledge).
[snip remainder]
Why are you making a big issue out of it?
Oliver Wong - 01 Dec 2006 18:52 GMT >> However, I don't agree that the snipped quotes (in which you seem >> to be saying that you never do anything wrong) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Why are you making a big issue out of it? I don't know about B.L., but to me, your stance of "I never knowingly do anything wrong, and you can't fault me for not knowing" is quite radical. Maybe that's why a big deal is being made.
- Oliver
Twisted - 02 Dec 2006 00:01 GMT > >> However, I don't agree that the snipped quotes (in which you seem > >> to be saying that you never do anything wrong) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I don't know about B.L., but to me, your stance of "I never knowingly do > anything wrong, and you can't fault me for not knowing" is quite radical. Radical? It's only logical.
Things can happen in three ways: * Without my having any conscious control over them; * As an intended effect of something I consciously decide to do; * Or as an unintended effect of something I consciously decide to do.
Of these, the first category can clearly not be reasonably blamed on me (e.g. a mudslide in Peking or whatever) and the second does not contain any seriously harmful actions (I am not a criminal; I don't intentionally do serious harm!)
That leaves the side-effects. Of those, there are two kinds: * Reasonably foreseeable based on the knowledge I have at the time, which contains (but is not limited to) a basic Western education, Java knowledge (relevant specifically in the context of this newsgroup), and anything self-evident to a person of normal intelligence (or indeed of substantially above-normal intelligence...) * The rest.
Call these, respectively, "foreseeable" and "unforeseeable" for brevity. It is clear that the latter also cannot be blamed on me. For example, if I flap my arms and it causes a deadly hurricane in Taiwan six months later, the hurricane is not my fault -- it was just as likely that my *not* flapping my arms would have that consequence. Chaos theory effectively means the causal connection is encrypted and thus unavailable to foresight with the level of modeling technology currently available (to wit, human brains and thus-far-fairly-rudimentary artificial computers). Which means these consequences are just as unmanageable as truly spontaneous natural disasters or whatever, at least for the foreseeable future (about 20 years, give or take). Blaming someone for the hurricane would make no sense, because nobody (yet) has the means to affect that sort of long range chaotic effect in any way that doesn't manifest as pure noise.
The foreseeable but unintended consequences are left. Of course, if those include a reasonably likely significant harm to someone, then the action is irresponsible and I won't take it. The rest are harmless.
There's some added complexity regarding lesser-of-evils situations, including punitive or retaliative action that may cause harm but prevent other harm, but the above argumentation is the nuts and bolts of it.
To the extent that a person is capable of reasonable knowledge and foresight, lacks purely malicious intent, and avoids acting irresponsibly (basically "is of sound mind and judgement" and "is not criminal or negligent") they should not be considered guilty of anything, ever. (Me, or anyone else in the above category.)
Of course, good intentions alone don't guarantee a good outcome; that is why bad but foreseeable side effects are important to consider, and why it's necessary to be rational and ground decisions in empiricism. Killing the planet's whole population to end suffering kind of misses the point, for example, as do other classical "good intentions, great evil" scenarios. (Hitler's plans, for one. A case can be made that he meant well, but obviously he wasn't of anything remotely resembling sound judgment, and pursued irrational, non-empirically-based ideals with blood. Of course a case can be made that he was simply a greedy and murderous bastard, too.) Actually the most common source of evil of the "good intentions" variety in fact and in fiction seems to be having some Brilliant Idea(tm) and then imposing it by fiat. I weight any abrogation of someone's self-determination (including abrogating their choice not to die just yet, i.e. murder) extremely negatively versus anything else besides protecting someone *else*'s self-determination. This leads to a calculation whereby any kind of system that doesn't maximize freedom for most people is clearly and foreseeably bad. Ideally, self-determination is limited *solely* to the extent that someone's determination would stuff up someone else's freedom of choice. In practise, it's also necessary sometimes to enforce arbitrary conventions to break symmetry deterministically, e.g. permit travel only on the left (or only on the right) side of a contiguous road system, for reasons of safety. (Actually, this isn't really an exception; the choice to drive on either side is a minor thing to lose compared to the choice to not be in a serious crash. Preventing a substantial number of crashes at the cost of some enforced symmetry-breaking without any other real consequences is clearly justifiable. In fact, *failing* to use such a simple fix, given that problem, is unconscionable.)
On the other hand, given how people behave (irrational and downright nasty) much of the time, it isn't beyond my imagining that a lot of people do actually hold others responsible routinely for things they had no chance to influence even with reasonable foresight and good intentions subject to the overriding goal of preserving widespread self-determination. It seems that blaming people for accidental collisions that they took all reasonable measures to avoid is commonplace, for example, as is blaming people for not knowing things that they never had any reason to find out -- no-one told them and it had no obvious importance to them, or perhaps no-one told them and they never even knew it existed to *be* found. I've also seen numerous cases of people being faulted for everything from their genetics(!) to unforeseeable events (an involuntary twitch of their body that damages something -- it might as well have been a meteor impact for all it was under their control!) and so on...
blmblm@myrealbox.com - 02 Dec 2006 14:31 GMT > > >> However, I don't agree that the snipped quotes (in which you seem > > >> to be saying that you never do anything wrong) > > > > > > Not knowingly, no. Ah, not *knowingly*. I understood "I never do anything wrong" to mean "I never deliberately do anything wrong, nor do I make mistakes."
> > > (And you can't fault me for not knowing, if it's not > > > self-evident, part of a standard Western education, basic Java [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > > > Why are you making a big issue out of it? Because the statements, as I understood them, seemed astonishing. I don't believe I've ever met anyone who never makes mistakes. If that wasn't what you meant, then one of us made a mistake -- me in interpreting your words, or you in expressing your meaning.
> > I don't know about B.L., but to me, your stance of "I never knowingly do > > anything wrong, and you can't fault me for not knowing" is quite radical. Something along those lines, yes.
[ snip ]
 Signature B. L. Massingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
Twisted - 02 Dec 2006 21:29 GMT > Ah, not *knowingly*. I understood "I never do anything wrong" to mean > "I never deliberately do anything wrong, nor do I make mistakes." You misunderstand me (wilfully?)...
If something I do has an unexpected side effect that I could not reasonably foresee, that isn't my fault -- it is something that just happened. It may as well have been caused by nobody, like a lightning strike, for all that it could reasonably have been prevented from occurring. In fact lightning can sometimes be controlled, by comparison.
Likewise, my body does involuntarily that wasn't commanded by my mind and that isn't predictable isn't me doing something. It's just something happening. If I make myself puke by gagging myself, I'm responsible for the mess. If I come down with something and puke, it's a good guess I had no desire to get ill and took every sensible precaution to avoid doing so just for my own convience and health. That it happened anyway is an accident, a natural disaster on a small scale, and although someone (probably me) has to clean up the mess, it is senseless to blame me for its happening in the first place.
This is the kind of thing I mean. People get blamed for things that are, oftentimes, things that happened *to* them, and just appear to be coming *from* them from the outside. Most of those things are things that can reasonably be identified as not really voluntary on their part, too. If someone upchucks, unless you saw them stick a finger or a spoon way back in their throat shortly beforehand, it's safe to bet that they are not to blame. If someone's golf backswing brains someone who quietly came up behind them at a driving range, you're best off chalking it up as an accident or even blaming the guy who *got* hit for not making his presence clear or approaching from another angle, since the risk was foreseeable by him, but the golfer doesn't have eyes in the back of his head.
> Because the statements, as I understood them, seemed astonishing. > I don't believe I've ever met anyone who never makes mistakes. If > that wasn't what you meant, then one of us made a mistake -- me in > interpreting your words, or you in expressing your meaning. Cute. I'm not claiming perfection or omniscience here. I'm just disclaiming any responsibility for the deviations from same, since they're not by choice and to the extent that they're practically avoidable they are avoided.
blmblm@myrealbox.com - 03 Dec 2006 09:50 GMT > > Ah, not *knowingly*. I understood "I never do anything wrong" to mean > > "I never deliberately do anything wrong, nor do I make mistakes." > > You misunderstand me (wilfully?)... Not wilfully, no.
[ snip ]
> > I don't believe I've ever met anyone who never makes mistakes. If > > that wasn't what you meant, then one of us made a mistake -- me in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > they're not by choice and to the extent that they're practically > avoidable they are avoided. Fine. It certainly sounded to me as if you *were* claiming perfection, but apparently I was wrong.
It seems to me, though, that when someone points out a deviation from perfection or omniscience, rather than arguing about whether it's your fault it might make more sense just to add the new or correction information to your total store of knowledge and get on with things.
 Signature B. L. Massingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
Twisted - 03 Dec 2006 10:59 GMT > It seems to me, though, that when someone points out a deviation > from perfection or omniscience, rather than arguing about whether > it's your fault it might make more sense just to add the new or > correction information to your total store of knowledge and get > on with things. But that doesn't happen much. More usually, someone points out something that they *think* is a deviation and I'm forced to explain why it's not; or someone accuses me of crap just to insult me in public.
Obviously, any suggestion of failure or wrongdoing on my part that's made in front of an audience mustn't be acquiesced to, or the audience will start questioning my IQ, competence, or sanity. So in public I must entrench and defend...
Oliver Wong - 04 Dec 2006 16:05 GMT > Obviously, any suggestion of failure or wrongdoing on my part that's > made in front of an audience mustn't be acquiesced to, or the audience > will start questioning my IQ, competence, or sanity. So in public I > must entrench and defend... Even when the suggestions of failure or wrongdoing on your part are accurate?
- Oliver
Twisted - 05 Dec 2006 00:29 GMT [suggests something insulting]
Sorry, no can do. I must not permit people to implant any negative belief about me into an audience, to the extent that I can feasibly prevent them or limit the extent of their success. Whether or not such attacks are "accurate" is not even important in that case; the mere fact that they constitute insults necessitates my response. Of course, they're generally *not* accurate...
Oliver Wong - 05 Dec 2006 15:09 GMT > [suggests something insulting] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > fact that they constitute insults necessitates my response. Of course, > they're generally *not* accurate... You are amazing.
- Oliver
Dag Sunde - 29 Nov 2006 18:30 GMT > [hostilities, most of them copied rather than original, deleted] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > sociopaths that need to be put in their place (and certainly not > handed victory on a silver platter, as you keep advocating!)... You're absolutely 100% delutional!
If you think the answers that you get here are hostile, you really have a serious problem with your self-esteem. People here have done nothing but trying to help you, and when you (almost immediately) started to behave like an a.s, thinging people was attacking you, they continued to be helpful by trying to explain to you why your behaviour wasn't a good idea.
The responses you have given in this thread is probably the worst, most stubborn and idiotic I've read on usenet in many years.
Pleas go away!
By the way... This post was hostile, and contained *no* respect for you as a participant in this NG.
PLONK!
 Signature Dag.
Twisted - 29 Nov 2006 23:44 GMT > If you think the answers that you get here are hostile, you really > have a serious problem[snip] What he said is utterly false. None of you can reasonably dispute that some of the messages posted by Atardi et. al. were hostile.
> [snip] continued to be helpful by trying to explain to you why your behaviour [snip] Wrong. No such act can possibly be "helpful". Three reasons: a) Discussions of "foo's behavior" are off-topic in comp.lang.java.programmer; b) My behavior cannot be wrong; therefore anyone acting as if it were otherwise *is* wrong; c) Regardless, "explaining to someone why their behavior is" anything negative, *in front of an audience*, is (whether intentionally or not) putting that person down in public, and requires a defense. Anyone with a genuinely helpful motive and a brain would use e-mail, and I did provide an address that nobody has in fact seen fit to use for that or any other purpose (save peddling pharmaceuticals, penny stocks, and of all things fancy watches
:P). [proceeds to insult me himself]
The mischaracterizations of me portrayed in Dag Sunde's posting are completely false and should be disregarded.
wesley.hall@gmail.com - 29 Nov 2006 23:53 GMT >Anyone with a genuinely helpful > motive and a brain would use e-mail, and I did provide an address that > nobody has in fact seen fit to use for that or any other purpose (save > peddling pharmaceuticals, penny stocks, and of all things fancy watches > :P). I am not sure if you missed it, but infact, I did email you with the offer that, if you send me your software (of if the software is sensative, an equivilant) then I would manipulate into a standard structure (if required) and write a simple ant build script to demonstrate how it could be done. I even said that if we could get back to a reasonable level of mutual respect, I may offer you some project space on my subversion server so you could test it out without the need to set it up for yourself.
I am not sure if you ignored/deleted this email or it got trapped in your spam filter (which would be somewhat ironic given another topic of debate within this thread).
Check again.
Twisted - 30 Nov 2006 02:07 GMT > I am not sure if you missed it, but infact, I did email you with the > offer that, if you send me your software (of if the software is > sensative, an equivilant) then I would manipulate into a standard > structure (if required) and write a simple ant build script to > demonstrate how it could be done. I was referring to personal criticisms or sincerely-meant "help" with my *supposedly* poor mental health, so as not to do so in front of third parties and thereby effectively attack me publicly. Nobody bothered to take *those* thoughts to email. I wonder why?
> I even said that if we could get back > to a reasonable level of mutual respect, I may offer you some project > space on my subversion server so you could test it out without the need > to set it up for yourself. That's OK, but thanks.
> I am not sure if you ignored/deleted this email or it got trapped in > your spam filter (which would be somewhat ironic given another topic of > debate within this thread). I may have forgotten about it, or not gotten to it in all the chaos lately.
Joe Attardi - 29 Nov 2006 22:25 GMT > In any case I don't think the worst of the f.ckers ARE angry. I think > they get their jollies out of picking on n00bs. They don't act angry; > they act like predatory animals closing in on a potential kill. Yeah, not really. If you check other posts made outside of this thread that people here have made, you would see that this is just untrue. Oh, right, that's "net.stalking". *rolls eyes*
We were all n00bs at one time and relied on those more experienced to help us out. Do some net.stalking and you'll see some pretty dumb newbie-ish questions I have asked on different groups over the years. But when an approach was recommended to me by people with more experience, I at the very least TRIED it before going on the defensive.
>(and certainly not handed victory on a silver platter, as you keep advocating!)... Why do you see this as some sort of contest from which someone needs to claim "victory" ?
Twisted - 30 Nov 2006 02:02 GMT > > In any case I don't think the worst of the f.ckers ARE angry. I think > > they get their jollies out of picking on n00bs. They don't act angry; > > they act like predatory animals closing in on a potential kill. > Yeah, not really. If you check other posts made outside of this thread > that people here have made, you would see that this is just untrue. A wolf pack singles out one deer in a herd and besets it, and leaves the other alone. You've proven nothing with that remark.
> Oh, right, that's "net.stalking". *rolls eyes* No, it's only net.stalking when you follow someone around and either post offtopic crap everywhere they go or drag irrelevancies from their past and from other newsgroups into a present discussion. Just reading stuff without then using it where it's offtopic is fine.
> But when an approach was recommended to me by people with more > experience, I at the very least TRIED it before going on the defensive. Even when they insinuated (in front of a live studio audience!) that you were dumb?!
> >(and certainly not handed victory on a silver platter, as you keep advocating!)... > Why do you see this as some sort of contest from which someone needs to > claim "victory" ? Because you behave as if it is. Your steadfast refusal to stop posting this dreck proves that you think there's a lot at stake in this. Of course so does mine, but you've put my reputation at stake, potentially globally, a.shole, and obviously I have to defend it. You on the other hand were never (at least initially) threatened and had the freedom to choose not to get involved at all, or to remain neutral, or even to join my side. Instead you attacked me eventually. And now you persist. Why? Not to defend anything, it seems. So either to destroy me, or to gain something for yourself (while not caring about collateral damage). That looks like "striving for victory" of some kind or another to me.
Joe Attardi - 30 Nov 2006 06:12 GMT > No, it's only net.stalking when you follow someone around and either > post offtopic crap everywhere they go One other topic != everywhere. Try again. I posted in one other topic, about bogus null pointer exceptions.
> or drag irrelevancies from their > past and from other newsgroups into a present discussion. It's not irrelevant when it solidifies your reputation as a troll.
> Even when they insinuated (in front of a live studio audience!) that > you were dumb?! Nobody suggested anything like that until you started acting like a jackass.
> Your steadfast refusal to stop posting > this dreck proves that you think there's a lot at stake in this. No, all it proves is that I fancy a good long debate.
Twisted - 30 Nov 2006 18:22 GMT > > No, it's only net.stalking when you follow someone around and either > > post offtopic crap everywhere they go > One other topic != everywhere.[snip hostilities] It's still offtopic crap and it's still net.stalking if you drag stuff anywhere, or follow them to one other newsgroup. (I seem to have, of late, attracted a relatively harmless stalker operating out of comp.text.tex too, as if you weren't bad enough...)
> > or drag irrelevancies from their > > past and from other newsgroups into a present discussion. > It's not irrelevant when it solidifies your <snip> It's not relevant when it has *anything* to do with my <whatever> rather than with Java, moron.
Your sole motive in referencing stuff I wrote elsewhere in the past is to take it out of context, twist it, and then use it in your campaign of character assassination. I see no reason to consider any such motive legitimate, or any action whose only motive can be such.
It's like how handguns can be for protection, but assault rifles are for only one thing -- assault. Similarly, various debating tactics can be legitimate, but dragging in your opponent's history can be for only one thing: ad-hominem attack. There is no way that it is legitimate to bring in someone's past as part of a discussion on "giving an application a window icon", and there is no way that you can convince me (or anyone else) otherwise, so give it up.
> > Even when they insinuated (in front of a live studio audience!) that > > you were dumb?! > Nobody suggested anything like that until you <insult deleted> Liar.
> No, all it proves is that I fancy a good long debate. You misspelled "flamewar", fuckwad.
Joe Attardi - 30 Nov 2006 19:48 GMT > Your sole motive in referencing stuff I wrote elsewhere in the past is > to take it out of context, twist it, and then use it in your campaign > of character assassination. How have I twisted it? Please put it back into context for me, because it looks like you are starting fights like this everywhere you post. Seriously, if I am taking it out of context, please correct me.
> Similarly, various debating tactics can > be legitimate, but dragging in your opponent's history can be for only > one thing: ad-hominem attack. There is no way that it is legitimate to > bring in someone's past as part of a discussion on "giving an > application a window icon" You took a discussion and turned it into a fight. You have done the same thing in many other threads. This appears to be your modus operandi. A troll. Mentioning that in a thread where you are doing the same thing is hardly an attack.
> <insult deleted>Liar. OK, again. If I am lying, prove me wrong. Otherwise, I am not a liar.
> You misspelled "flamewar", fuckwad. You really like saying "f.ck" every few sentences, don't you? Is it possible to get through a round of messages with you without you talking like a sailor? Ok, so I've called you a dumbass a couple of times. But seriously man, do you think ALL CAPS and saying f.ck this and Fucktard that really paint a picture of a "mild-mannered programmer" ?
You keep saying how you are "forced" to respond lest you let someone else "win" or "claim victory". This isn't a contest, there is no victory condition. It's a discussion, albeit a very heated one. It will eventually die down and end. There's not some victory condition that is met and then all activity stops. So please stop acting like there is. This isn't debate club in high school, it's an open unmoderated forum.
Twisted - 30 Nov 2006 22:49 GMT > > Your sole motive in referencing stuff I wrote elsewhere in the past is > > to take it out of context, twist it, and then use it in your campaign > > of character assassination. > How have I twisted it? Please put it back into context for me You haven't even posted any excerpts yet, just threatened to on multiple occasions, with the implied threat of twisting and otherwise distorting things (since otherwise it would just show me to be harmless and you a fool of course).
> it looks like you are starting fights like this everywhere you post. No. It might be true that people are picking fights like this with me everywhere I post, but I can't take responsibility for their behavior now can I? If they respond to some harmless eccentricity with intolerant flamage, that's their own damn fault, not mine, and I won't become a cookie-cutter conformist just to stop such idiots doing so, or to please you, or for any other reason for that matter.
> You took a discussion and turned it into a fight. That's a bald-faced lie. As I have REPEATEDLY stated, which none of you seem to be letting into your THICK skulls, I DIDN'T THROW THE FIRST PUNCH. I was attacked for not using getResource rather than because I attacked first, remember? Moron!
[Calls me a name and then claims that doing so is "hardly an attack", of all the ludicrous things, and proceeds to suggest that I'm a liar and do other evil things. None of it is true.]
> Is it possible to get through a round of messages with you without you > talking like a sailor? Yes. You could be a nice guy with no history of attacking me and post something polite and interesting. Well, someone can, but it's pretty obvious that *you* can't, but you know what I mean. Or of course you could shut the f.ck up.
> [Finally admits to having insulted me, after several vehement denials of same recently]
> But seriously man, do you think ALL CAPS and saying f.ck this > and Fucktard that really paint a picture of a "mild-mannered > programmer" ? I'm not *trying* to paint a picture, asswipe. I'm expressing anger and frustration that you continue to hassle me instead of f.cking the hell off! Nobody, however "mild-mannered", remains so when sufficiently provoked, nor does any reasonable person expect otherwise. Idiot.
> You keep saying how you are "forced" to respond lest you let someone > else "win" or "claim victory". This isn't a contest, there is no > victory condition. Then why are you putting so much effort into it, hmm? You yourself just admitted to opening extra browser windows and doing extensive googling and research just to support your thesis that I'm an idiot, or an a.shole, or whatever it is you're on about now. That isn't the behavior of someone to whom it's anything less than a blood sport.
Also, you mischaracterize why I respond. I couldn't care less if you declared victory, as long as nobody believed you, or any of the BS you've said about me. It is undoing your effect on the opinions of me held by your audience that is my goal. Even if that effect is only a side effect to you.
> It's a discussion, albeit a very heated one. It's a war, one you are prosecuting in some sort of vendetta against me for only Christ and your psychiatrist know what pathological reasons.
> It will eventually die down and end. I certainly hope so. Why not help it along now by shutting the hell up? Especially if, as you claim, you're not out for any sort of victory? If that's true, you won't be losing by walking away from this.
[Snip suggestion of being some grade school kid]
f.ck you.
blmblm@myrealbox.com - 01 Dec 2006 10:54 GMT > > > No, it's only net.stalking when you follow someone around and either > > > post offtopic crap everywhere they go [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > late, attracted a relatively harmless stalker operating out of > comp.text.tex too, as if you weren't bad enough...) That would be me, maybe? On the assumption that it is -- disregard if not -- :
You have posted in two newsgroups I browse/follow. I have observed this. (No, I don't always notice who posts what, but I do generally notice identities of newsgroup regulars as well as frequent participants in particularly interesting threads.) I followed up on a post in this newsgroup in which you mentioned the other. I don't quite get how this constitutes stalking, but I guess as long as you describe it as "relatively harmless" I don't much care.
What initially attracted my attention to this thread, by the way, was that it seemed to be generating a lot more posts than the subject line would seem to merit. Often this indicates that the topic of discussion has drifted, so I tuned in, so to speak, to find out whether the new topic was of interest, and found .... something not very interesting for its technical content, but interesting in the interaction of personalities. (That was meant as a neutral statement making no claims about why the thread has gone on for so long and drifted so far afield.)
> > > or drag irrelevancies from their > > > past and from other newsgroups into a present discussion. > > It's not irrelevant when it solidifies your <snip> > > It's not relevant when it has *anything* to do with my <whatever> > rather than with Java, moron. In a court of law in the US, aren't lawyers allowed to bring up otherwise irrelevant material that might be used to support, or impeach, the credibility of a witness? Or is that only in popular fiction about courts of law?
Of course this is not a court of law, but the principle would seem to be similar -- when two parties disagree, it seems reasonable to me to decide which one to believe based on their relative credibility, and past behavior of both parties might be helpful in assessing that.
[ snip ]
 Signature B. L. Massingill ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
Twisted - 01 Dec 2006 16:34 GMT > In a court of law in the US, aren't lawyers allowed to bring up > otherwise irrelevant material that might be used to support, or > impeach, the credibility of a witness? Or is that only in popular > fiction about courts of law? They're also allowed to object to material that would unduly prejudice the jury, in case you hadn't noticed that bit.
In any case, I don't recognize the jurisdiction of Attardi and palz' little kangaroo court and will not dignify their "proceedings" against me with any kind of legal niceties and allowances. I am beyond reproach and that is non-negotiable.
> Of course this is not a court of law, but the principle would seem to > be similar -- when two parties disagree, it seems reasonable to me > to decide which one to believe based on their relative credibility, > and past behavior of both parties might be helpful in assessing that. Better yet, use the actual facts, as much as possible. A wifebeater with a history of frequent hospitalizations for mental illness saying 2+2 is 4 is more credible to me than a regular law-abiding citizen with an unimpeachable reputation who says it's 5.
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