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Java Forum / General / November 2006What makes a senior developer?
OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I don't think that I would class myself as senior in the same way as I looked up to developers when I began. So what are peoples thoughts on this? If this is inappropriate forum for this discussion let me know what an appropriate forum would be. > OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a > "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I > don't think that I would class myself as senior in the same way as I > looked up to developers when I began. So what are peoples thoughts on > this? If this is inappropriate forum for this discussion let me know > what an appropriate forum would be. There might be better places to discuss this. My short answer would be that it is highly context dependent. Somewhere it is just a label given to people to justify a raise, some other place senior starts with 4 years and even other places with 10 programming languages mastered or 20 projects finished... Cheers robert You're senior if you know more about Java, and have been developing longer than at least two other people on your Java team. ;) Makes me think of the banks, where everyone is a Vice President. Cheers! -Cameron McKenzie Author of the SCJA Certification Guide and What is WebSphere? Certification Resources: www.examscam.com Free WebSphere Tutorials: www.pulpjava.com Free Mock Java Certification Exams: www.scja.com Free J2EE and Java Multimedia Tutorials: www.mcnz.com > > OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a > > "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > robert > -Cameron McKenzie > Author of the SCJA Certification Guide and What is WebSphere? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Free Mock Java Certification Exams: www.scja.com > Free J2EE and Java Multimedia Tutorials: www.mcnz.com Would the esteemed author please consider following common Usenet netiquette? a) Do not top-post. If you don't know what top-posting is, google for it. b) Put your advertising in your signature. If you don't know how a proper Usenet signature looks like, google for it. c) Don't use a signature (once you have one) larger than four lines of 72 characters (sans the signature separator). Thank you for listening to this important security announcement. /Thomas PS: Bonus points for using a real Usenet reader instead of that Google junk.  SignatureThe comp.lang.java.gui FAQ: http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/faqs/faqs-hierarchy/comp/comp.lang.java.gui/ ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/computer-lang/java/gui/faq >> OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a >> "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > years and even other places with 10 programming languages mastered or 20 > projects finished... "10 programming languages mastered or 20 projects finished..." seems an excessively demanding requirement. I don't qualify, and my job title was "senior programmer analyst" about twenty-five years ago. Patricia >>> OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a >>> "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I don't qualify, and my job title was "senior programmer analyst" about > twenty-five years ago. Which exactly proves my point: there is no common agreed definition of "senor developer". :-) Take care robert > Which exactly proves my point: there is no common agreed definition of > "senor developer". :-) I don't speak the language well, but my understanding is that "Senor Developer" (assuming a tilde) roughly translates as "Mr. Developer" (Okay, I know; bad joke...) SignatureChris Smith >> Which exactly proves my point: there is no common agreed definition of >> "senor developer". :-) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (Okay, I know; bad joke...) I still don't qualify. :-( Patricia >>> Which exactly proves my point: there is no common agreed definition >>> of "senor developer". :-) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I still don't qualify. :-( Mademoiselle Developeur? >>>> Which exactly proves my point: there is no common agreed definition >>>> of "senor developer". :-) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Mademoiselle Developeur? My French and Spanish is pretty poor but I imagine that Señora (or Señorita) would be the gender-correct equivalent of Señor . I usually think of PS as a seniorer developer anyway :-) (in that she seems more authoritative than most senior developers). >>> Which exactly proves my point: there is no common agreed definition >>> of "senor developer". :-) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I still don't qualify. :-( LOL robert >>> OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a >>> "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I don't qualify, and my job title was "senior programmer analyst" about > twenty-five years ago. Hell, my title was "Savant Fellow in Computing" twenty years ago[1]. Mind you I've probably forgotten ten programming languages... [1] I kid you not. 'Savant' was the name of the company who sponsored the fellowship, but I kind of liked the title. Signaturesimon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ ;; If God does not write LISP, God writes some code so similar to ;; LISP as to make no difference. > OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a > "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I > don't think that I would class myself as senior in the same way as I > looked up to developers when I began. So what are peoples thoughts on > this? Different places means different conventions. I would define a senior developer as one that does not need any supervision. Arne > I would define a senior developer as one that does not > need any supervision. I'm inclined to agree that that's the critical distinction, although I would go a bit further and say that the "senior" developer is the one who is capable of providing said supervision. Or who is /supposed/ to be capable... -- chris >> OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a >> "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I would define a senior developer as one that does not > need any supervision. I would define a 'developer' as one who does not need any supervision. I would define a developer who did need supervision a 'trainee' or else as 'out of here'. Signaturesimon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ -- mens vacua in medio vacuo -- >>> OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a >>> "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > would define a developer who did need supervision a 'trainee' or else > as 'out of here'. I tend to agree. I'd define seniority in terms of how large a project I'd assign someone to do without day-to-day supervision. >>> OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a >>> "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > would define a developer who did need supervision a 'trainee' or else > as 'out of here'. Now - I don't know what you do or what kind of people you hire. But in my experience most developers need some supervision for several years. Arne > Now - I don't know what you do or what kind of people you hire. > > But in my experience most developers need some supervision > for several years. I think it entirely depends upon who you hire. In my first job I was in charge of development of the (small) division's product. Joined a week later by the best programmer I have worked with, who likewise was starting his first programming job. The vast majority of companies aren't quite so smart about hiring. If a developer still needs "supervision" after six months, I doubt if they will ever become competent. Tom Hawtin >> Now - I don't know what you do or what kind of people you hire. >> >> But in my experience most developers need some supervision >> for several years. > > I think it entirely depends upon who you hire. > The vast majority of companies aren't quite so smart about hiring. If a > developer still needs "supervision" after six months, I doubt if they > will ever become competent. My experience is that is usually takes 3-5 years until they fully understand the context. Maybe we have an unusual big context. Arne >> Now - I don't know what you do or what kind of people you hire. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > developer still needs "supervision" after six months, I doubt if they > will ever become competent. To be honest, the best programmer I ever hired - a person I really enjoyed working with and with whom I had a very creative working relationship, which resulted in some very good software getting shipped - had quite severe drink and depression problems. I knew this when I hired him. He'd just failed a Comp Sci degree at Cambridge, but I knew from one of his tutors whom I knew from a language standards committee we were both on that the guy was good. So I hired him. At work, he needed no supervision. His work was consistently better than mine, and I learned a lot from him. But his private life did need some supervision. Occasionally I needed to go round to his house and drag him protesting out of bed to get him to work... which is not what a technical director is normally supposed to do, I agree, but it worked for him and it worked for me. It's whatever gets the job done, after all. Signaturesimon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks? Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther -- Robert Burns, 'Thanksgiving For a National Victory' >>> Now - I don't know what you do or what kind of people you hire. >>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > It's whatever gets the job done, after all. That's encouraging. For a lot of people, those sorts of problems are a professional death sentence. It's good to know that at least some folks are willing to take on the non-traditional responsibilities that come with hiring an alcoholic or severely depressed employee. >>>> OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is >>>> a "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > But in my experience most developers need some supervision > for several years. Well, to be honest I don't hire anyone any more; I don't run a team these days. And I have hired people who needed supervision, but I didn't keep them long. If people can't be trusted to be given a problem and go away and solve it and come back with the solution, then what use are they? Obviously you may need to point them at where to find out what standards you expect them to conform to and how you expect them to interact with the rest of the team, but... if someone is taking more of my time than a few minutes chat every day and an fortnightly code review, then they aren't saving me time. And if they aren't saving me time, what's the point of paying their wages? Signaturesimon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ ;; All in all you're just another hick in the mall -- Drink C'lloid > > I would define a senior developer as one that does not > > need any supervision. > > I would define a 'developer' as one who does not need any supervision. I > would define a developer who did need supervision a 'trainee' or else > as 'out of here'. You are not taking title-creep into account. Once a "chef" was the C-in-C of a big kitchen, now it's anyone who cooks for money. Once a "referee" was the person in charge of the match, now it's anyone who hangs around the pitch but isn't associated with either side (except in Italy ;-). Once a "star" was the rare actor/ress who could pull in the crowds, now it is anyone who has more than a couple of lines to say. I could go on, but I'm sure that you can see the drift ;-) I agree that "developer" /should/ imply adequacy -- but then I think "adequate" is one of the strongest possible (positive) judgements one can make of anything/anyone. But that too has eroded, and now is mostly taken to imply "only just barely fit for purpose -- if you're not fussy". -- chris > OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a > "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I > don't think that I would class myself as senior in the same way as I > looked up to developers when I began. So what are peoples thoughts on > this? If this is inappropriate forum for this discussion let me know > what an appropriate forum would be. I'd define a senior developer as one who can build software that's efficient, reliable, maintainable, and testable. > OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a > "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I > don't think that I would class myself as senior in the same way as I > looked up to developers when I began. So what are peoples thoughts on > this? If this is inappropriate forum for this discussion let me know > what an appropriate forum would be. If you can't hold your pee while you code, you are a senior developer. > OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a > "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I > don't think that I would class myself as senior in the same way as I > looked up to developers when I began. So what are peoples thoughts on > this? If this is inappropriate forum for this discussion let me know > what an appropriate forum would be. Maybe "senior" developers qualify for the discount Sunday-morning breakfast at Bickford's. > OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a > "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I > don't think that I would class myself as senior in the same way as I > looked up to developers when I began. So what are peoples thoughts on > this? If this is inappropriate forum for this discussion let me know > what an appropriate forum would be. This is a delicate question. But I think you are ready for it. When a boy senior developer and a girl senior developer really like each other, they express their love in a physical way. Sometimes this results in the boy senior developer's sperm fertilizing the girl senior developer's egg. This is what makes a senior developer. Without sounding cynical a senior developer is someone who can confidently write rubbish code. > Without sounding cynical a senior developer is someone who can > confidently write rubbish code. Cool! I qualify. Do I need a special card to get my discount at Bickfords? >What makes a senior developer? Senior developers write their question into the body of their message. More seriously, "senior developer" is a title granted by the employer. So, a senior developer is any individual, who has been granted this title by its employer. This does not require or indicate any occupational skill or professional qualification, as the employer is free to grant this title as he pleases. > OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a > "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I > don't think that I would class myself as senior in the same way as I > looked up to developers when I began. So what are peoples thoughts on > this? If this is inappropriate forum for this discussion let me know > what an appropriate forum would be. Too nerdy for management. Too young to retire. SignatureThe Texeme Construct http://you-read-it-here-first.com >> OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a >> "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Too young to retire. That's me! Signaturesimon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ ; gif ye hes forget our auld plane Scottis quhilk your mother lerit you, ; in tymes cuming I sall wryte to you my mind in Latin, for I am nocht ; acquyntit with your Southeron ;; Letter frae Ninian Winyet tae John Knox datit 27t October 1563 >>> OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a >>> "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > That's me! I'm too old to give up I'm too young to rest -- Pete Townshend, "Dreaming from the Waist" >>> Too nerdy for management. >>> >>> Too young to retire. >> >> That's me! Almost - I'm just too poor to retire. On Nov 15, 8:56 pm, robj...@hotmail.co.uk wrote: > OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a > "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I > don't think that I would class myself as senior in the same way as I > looked up to developers when I began. So what are peoples thoughts on > this? If this is inappropriate forum for this discussion let me know > what an appropriate forum would be. As a hiring manager, I define Senior Developers as those who can help lead and mentor other less-able developers*. Senior developers also tend to be able to understand the entire system quicker and more thoroughly than other developers, plus are able to know when to apply different technologies or approaches to an existing system. Andrew * Less-able does not always mean few-years development exposure - I have encountered numerous people who have only 2 or 3 years work experience and yet are far better than others with 10+ years. As a result I long ago stopped looking at work duration as a marker for competency. > As a hiring manager, I define Senior Developers as those who can help > lead and mentor other less-able developers*. Senior developers also > tend to be able to understand the entire system quicker and more > thoroughly than other developers, plus are able to know when to apply > different technologies or approaches to an existing system. Isn't it just wordplay? I saw this the other day: http://blogs.sun.com/danmas/entry/staff_engineers From which we can learn: o Software Engineers do not apply professional skills ensuring that the project, program or company is successful. o Software Engineers are unaffected by assuming responsibility. o Software Engineers cannot anticipate, recognise and deal with problems. o Software Engineers are not responsible for the quality and delivery of projects. A funny thing is that as more job title changed from Software Developer to Software Engineer to Senior Software Engineer, my responsibilities became less and less. None now, of course. > * Less-able does not always mean few-years development exposure - I > have encountered numerous people who have only 2 or 3 years work > experience and yet are far better than others with 10+ years. As a > result I long ago stopped looking at work duration as a marker for > competency. The results of the code wars tally with my experience. Most developers do as little thinking as possible, and give up learning at the earliest opportunity. Tom Hawtin > > As a hiring manager, I define Senior Developers as those who can help > > lead and mentor other less-able developers*. Senior developers also > > tend to be able to understand the entire system quicker and more > > thoroughly than other developers, plus are able to know when to apply > > different technologies or approaches to an existing system. > Isn't it just wordplay? Not sure what you mean? All I'm trying to say to the op was that 'Senior' usually (IME) means those developers who can also lead a team (and therefore mentor) to ensure a project is delivered successfully (i.e. on time or scope, plus high quality) snipped > > * Less-able does not always mean few-years development exposure - I > > have encountered numerous people who have only 2 or 3 years work [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Most developers do as little thinking as possible, and give up learning at the earliest > opportunity. A lot do yes, but not all, and those that do tend to get stuck in a role or job (or lack of) because of that. > Tom Hawtin ... > The results of the code wars tally with my experience. Most developers > do as little thinking as possible, and give up learning at the earliest > opportunity. ... But, given the nature of the computer industry, my assumption is that the "earliest opportunity" for me to stop learning about computers will be after I retire. For most of my jobs, "as little thinking as possible" has involved some of the hardest problem solving I've ever done, far harder than getting a mathematics degree. Patricia > OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a > "senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I > don't think that I would class myself as senior in the same way as I > looked up to developers when I began. So what are peoples thoughts on > this? If this is inappropriate forum for this discussion let me know > what an appropriate forum would be. i've found people begin to label you "senior" when you pass five or six years experience. some still call that mid-level. everyone and every place is different. some places will still call you an "analyst" at any level. Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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