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Java Forum / General / November 2006

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Is there any one who has been working with java for a long long time?

Thread view: 
Amanda - 02 Nov 2006 22:36 GMT
If so, I have a unique question.
richardsosborn@gmail.com - 02 Nov 2006 22:47 GMT
> If so, I have a unique question.

what's a "long long time"?  i'd fire off with it.
chances are, someone knows.
Jean-Francois Briere - 02 Nov 2006 22:58 GMT
I've been.
What is your question?
Amanda - 03 Nov 2006 01:30 GMT
> I've been.
> What is your question?

Here it is.

I have noticed that in some pharmaceutial industry, programmer  with
experience in J2EE, JDBC, JSP, and database knowledge such as Oracle
with "CHEMISTRY" knowledge is desired.

Three years ago, they were using C++. I am wondering whether they will
move to C# or will some remain using Java?

I have Chemistry degrees + academic level programming skills (lots of
exposure to different topics via courses work ). I did a little bit of
JSP as a part of school work but it's been a few years.

I am familiarizing myself wiht C# now and am planning to spend some
serious time to become good at J2EE, JSP, etc but also wonders whether
I should just concentrate in C# in case these pharma companies moves
onto C#.   I realy want to get into working in Chemistry environment in
IT sector, i.e research envrionent starting with programming work.

What's the suggestion or opinion?
Manish Pandit - 03 Nov 2006 01:54 GMT
Don't you have other Pharma sector companies other than this particular
one? I can safely say that as long as you are cool with relocating
wherever your job takes you, proficiency in Java Technologies will get
you into one of the pharma companies.

-cheers,
Manish
Amanda - 03 Nov 2006 03:09 GMT
> Don't you have other Pharma sector companies other than this particular
> one?

I have yet to do more research into that.

>I can safely say that as long as you are cool with relocating
> wherever your job takes you, proficiency in Java Technologies will get
> you into one of the pharma companies.

I am in the West Coast of USA but I am willing to move to the east
coast where there are some Pharma companies as well. In fact, some
companies are leaving CA and living expense here is getting crazier.

Thanks for the info on Java. I really appreciate it.

> -cheers,
> Manish
Manish Pandit - 03 Nov 2006 03:19 GMT
> Thanks for the info on Java. I really appreciate it.

You're welcome. One possible hurdle could be IT vs. research, as most
of the job openings in pharma companies (like Genentech, Roche, Chiron,
etc. in the bay area) are in their IT division. They may ask for an
understanding of pharma business, but I am not sure if that'd need
chemistry. You might want to get into IT as a stepping stone, and then
move in towards the research/lab divisions if there are any internal
openings.

-cheers,
Manish
Amanda - 03 Nov 2006 03:56 GMT
> > Thanks for the info on Java. I really appreciate it.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> -cheers,
> Manish

Thanks again for the info. Yes, I should get into IT first ( will try
contract work but first needs to do project on my own since no schools
offers specific cousre for what I want to get good at) and get
industrial experience before trying pharma companies.

About pharma business, I had seen specific knowledge requirement in
Protein Synthesis while stating BS/MS in Chemistry or Computer Science
stating the IT requirements but recently, I have been seeing no
specific mentioning except w.r.t IT with stating that it would be in
chemistry environment requiring Chemistry knowledge.  I am okay with
Biochemistry and Molecular Biology  - have basic knowledge in both and
can catch up easily with those.

I'll be very happy to do even "unpaid" internship in Java even if I
have to move as lon as it would be good experience.
Simon Brooke - 03 Nov 2006 11:13 GMT
>> I've been.
>> What is your question?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Three years ago, they were using C++. I am wondering whether they will
> move to C# or will some remain using Java?

That's a commercial question, not a technical one.

There's no significant technical benefit of C# over Java; C# is simply a
copy of Java as close as Microsoft can get without violating Sun's various
contracts and intellectual property protections. C# does benefit a little
from coming later and learning from a few of Java's mistakes, but not in
any significant way - most of the things which are wrong with Java are
identical in C#.

If your employer is a Microsoft house, sooner or later they'll move to C#.
If your employer is not a Microsoft house, or wishes to keep their
long-term strategic options open, they won't.

> I have Chemistry degrees + academic level programming skills (lots of
> exposure to different topics via courses work ). I did a little bit of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I should just concentrate in C# in case these pharma companies moves
> onto C#.

If you are looking at big companies, my bet is they cannot afford to be
strategically dependent on Microsoft, and so will stay with Java. This
isn't simply a choice between Microsoft and Sun, since Microsoft are the
only main suppliers of the C# environment, whereas Java can be
second-sourced from IBM and others. It is this relative openness which,
for large companies at least, will continue to give Java its relative edge
over C#.

Signature

simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

       ;; Diplomacy, American: see Intelligence, Military

Amanda - 03 Nov 2006 15:43 GMT
> >> I've been.
> >> What is your question?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> That's a commercial question, not a technical one.

Right.

> There's no significant technical benefit of C# over Java; C# is simply a
> copy of Java as close as Microsoft can get without violating Sun's various
> contracts and intellectual property protections. C# does benefit a little
> from coming later and learning from a few of Java's mistakes, but not in
> any significant way - most of the things which are wrong with Java are
> identical in C#.

I personally feel that Microsoft stole form Suna nd call it C#.

> If your employer is a Microsoft house, sooner or later they'll move to C#.
> If your employer is not a Microsoft house, or wishes to keep their
> long-term strategic options open, they won't.

I see. I didn't think of that.
So if a big pharma company uses java, it's not likely that they will
move to .Net then.

> > I have Chemistry degrees + academic level programming skills (lots of
> > exposure to different topics via courses work ). I did a little bit of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> If you are looking at big companies, my bet is they cannot afford to be
> strategically dependent on Microsoft, and so will stay with Java.

Hmm.  A friend of mine - he is seriosu Java Programmer - got an
interview with a  big pharma company in East Coast and was told that
they would get into C#. I don't know what they were/are using though.

>This
> isn't simply a choice between Microsoft and Sun, since Microsoft are the
> only main suppliers of the C# environment, whereas Java can be
> second-sourced from IBM and others. It is this relative openness which,
> for large companies at least, will continue to give Java its relative edge
> over C#.

Thanks a lot for this info. Now I know what to stick with at the moment
to reach my goal.
I am happy to hear that C# won't beat Java.

> --
> simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
>
>         ;; Diplomacy, American: see Intelligence, Military
Michael - 03 Nov 2006 20:16 GMT
> I have noticed that in some pharmaceutial industry, programmer  with
> experience in J2EE, JDBC, JSP, and database knowledge such as Oracle
> with "CHEMISTRY" knowledge is desired.
>
> Three years ago, they were using C++. I am wondering whether they will
> move to C# or will some remain using Java?

My experience is in biotech, so it may be slightly different in the big
pharma, but here goes anyway.

We typically used C++ for individual number crunching tools that are
computationally intensive and operate on a particular kind of data and
Java for database-related tools that are more integrative and operate
across many kinds of data.

So, for a chemistry example, if you're doing some sort of 3D protein
folding or something, you'd typically use C++ over Java.  If you're
writing the code that tracks the chemical inventory, and which
compounds had been tested against which targets, you'd use Java.

My impression is that roughly 1990-2000, a tremendous amount of push
was made for the C++ type of programs.  Number crunching, replacing
experiments with computations, etc. So the idea would be that you'd get
rid of labs and just have big computers. Algorithmic focus.  These
things would be labeled computational chemistry, etc.  And I think that
to the extent they still exist today, these are still using C++.

Eventually, people realized that wasn't working nearly as well as had
been hoped, and the new approach is to use computers to tie existing
knowlege together.  So computers become more integrative of existing
data, and their role is to help make the lab processes more efficient,
and tie their data together, rather than to replace labs.  This is more
IT or informatics.  Data focus.  And Java has been great in this latter
field.  Depending on a given company, they might use Java with various
frameworks or go for C# and .NET.

Michael
Amanda - 04 Nov 2006 00:20 GMT
> > I have noticed that in some pharmaceutial industry, programmer  with
> > experience in J2EE, JDBC, JSP, and database knowledge such as Oracle
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> field.  Depending on a given company, they might use Java with various
> frameworks or go for C# and .NET.

Thanks so much for the explanation.  It clearifies a lot of things for
me.

I was in analytical Chemistry and my knowledge in Biochemistry is
strictly academic and so was Molecular Biology which I registered and
sat in a course recently - I told the instructor that I didn't want to
do the labs and would withdra before dealine.

If a particular company has been using Java instead of C#, it would
most likely to remain using Java, right?

> Michael
Daniel Pitts - 02 Nov 2006 23:50 GMT
> If so, I have a unique question.

I have a unique suggestion.
Ask your question, and if someone has an answer, they will likely post
it.
Tor Iver Wilhelmsen - 03 Nov 2006 00:05 GMT
> If so, I have a unique question.

Have you matched it against all possible/existing questions to ensure
it's unique? We take such things seriously here.
Thomas Hawtin - 03 Nov 2006 00:08 GMT
>> If so, I have a unique question.
>
> Have you matched it against all possible/existing questions to ensure
> it's unique? We take such things seriously here.

I bet it's only unique inside a given class loader context.

Tom Hawtin (unique name within Europe, AFAIK)
Amanda - 03 Nov 2006 01:20 GMT
> > If so, I have a unique question.
>
> Have you matched it against all possible/existing questions to ensure
> it's unique? We take such things seriously here.

I assure you that it is very uinique?

When I post this unqiue question, I hope someone answers it.
Chris Uppal - 03 Nov 2006 12:56 GMT
> When I post this unqiue question, I hope someone answers it.

Probably nobody will know the answer...

(In a working newsgroup, a lot of the communal knowledge at any one time has
been learned from reading previous posts -- so a genuinely new question might
stump the whole community ;-)

   -- chris
Patricia Shanahan - 03 Nov 2006 00:42 GMT
> If so, I have a unique question.

I don't think anyone has been working with java for a "long long time".
Even its precursor, Oak, has only existed for about 15 years.

However, different people have different ideas of "long" in these contexts.

Why not just post your question?

Patricia
Simon Brooke - 03 Nov 2006 10:44 GMT
> If so, I have a unique question.

I've been using it as my principle language since 1996, and first taught a
course in it in 1995 - the year it was publicly announced. I imagine there
are plenty of other people here who could say the same. I never used Oak,
but I have used a lot of languages which were in one way or another
predecessors to Java; I've been programming in object-oriented languages
since 1986.

Signature

simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

               ;; Semper in faecibus sumus, sole profundum variat.

Amanda - 03 Nov 2006 15:35 GMT
> > If so, I have a unique question.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> predecessors to Java; I've been programming in object-oriented languages
> since 1986.

So have you been teaching Java lately?

> --
> simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
>
>                 ;; Semper in faecibus sumus, sole profundum variat.
Simon Brooke - 03 Nov 2006 21:11 GMT
>> > If so, I have a unique question.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>  So have you been teaching Java lately?

Occasionally, and specific bits. I wrote a course on Tomcat earlier this
year, which you can find here:

http://www.weft.co.uk/library/tomcat/

and am working on a course on the Location API for J2ME.

My Java/database/XML tutorial from 2000 is here
http://www.weft.co.uk/library/inet2000/

...but it contains a series of absolute howlers in slides 86 - 89 of day
two - the example given just happened to work with the version of Xerces
available in 2000, but is not compatible with the DOM API and you should
not follow it!

Signature

simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
   Just as defying the law of gravity through building aircraft requires
   careful design and a lot of effort, so too does defying laws of
   economics. It seems to be a deeply ingrained aspect of humanity to
   forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
   free market system seems to me to be unnatural.     ;; Charles Bryant

Amanda - 04 Nov 2006 00:15 GMT
[..]

> >  So have you been teaching Java lately?
>
> Occasionally, and specific bits. I wrote a course on Tomcat earlier this
> year, which you can find here:
>
> http://www.weft.co.uk/library/tomcat/

Great. Thanks. There was a book I bought about Tomcast 3 years ago but
returned it since I wasn't ready to dive into it right away. Then many
things happened that kept me from it.

> and am working on a course on the Location API for J2ME.

I see.

> My Java/database/XML tutorial from 2000 is here
> http://www.weft.co.uk/library/inet2000/
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> available in 2000, but is not compatible with the DOM API and you should
> not follow it!

Okay.  I took an XML class in Summer 2003. The rpofessor used Perl for
a couple of homeword assignment but the rest was in Java but I don't
remember much.

Thanks.

> --
> simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>     forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
>     free market system seems to me to be unnatural.     ;; Charles Bryant
Furious George - 03 Nov 2006 14:44 GMT
> If so, I have a unique question.

I have been using java for several hundred thousand years now.  I am
still a newbie, but pose your question anyway.
Amanda - 03 Nov 2006 15:34 GMT
> > If so, I have a unique question.
>
> I have been using java for several hundred thousand years now.

I didn't know that Java has been around that long? Any evidence?

>I am  still a newbie, but pose your question anyway.

I need to develop a  reasonable size project (or more than one)  using
jsp, using JDBC, so that I can show as personal project on my resume.
Any guidance?

Would you recommend Tomcat or JBoss? MySQL or another database such as
oracle.  I have SQL Server (not express ed) btw.
Larry Coon - 03 Nov 2006 17:19 GMT
> I didn't know that Java has been around that long? Any evidence?

There are petroglyphs with clear evidence of having been
created using a LayoutManager.

Larry Coon
University of California
Simon Brooke - 03 Nov 2006 21:23 GMT
>> > If so, I have a unique question.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> jsp, using JDBC, so that I can show as personal project on my resume.
> Any guidance?

Find a concrete real world problem that needs solving. Choose a toolkit on
which to base your work - personally I tend to use things I've rolled
myself, simply because I've been doing this longer than most people and
when I started there weren't good toolkits out there so I had to build my
own; and now I'm so practised with my own toolkit that there's little
benefit in trying something new. But if I was starting over I would
probably start with Struts:

http://struts.apache.org/

I'd then find an open source project built with that toolkit and pull it
apart looking for patterns to learn from.

> Would you recommend Tomcat or JBoss? MySQL or another database such as
> oracle.  I have SQL Server (not express ed) btw.

Personally I very much like Tomcat. As to databases MySQL is getting better
but it's still not as robust as Postgres, which I would recommend in
preference.

Signature

simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

       ;; Human history becomes more and more a race between
       ;; education and catastrophe.
                               H.G. Wells, "The Outline of History"

amanda - 11 Nov 2006 00:43 GMT
> >> > If so, I have a unique question.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> I'd then find an open source project built with that toolkit and pull it
> apart looking for patterns to learn from.

Thanks.

> > Would you recommend Tomcat or JBoss? MySQL or another database such as
> > oracle.  I have SQL Server (not express ed) btw.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>         ;; education and catastrophe.
>                                 H.G. Wells, "The Outline of History"


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