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Java Forum / General / November 2006

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Commercial Java program bundled with 'free' database?

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Korto - 30 Oct 2006 21:19 GMT
Hi!  I am writing a program for a client and I'm using several database
files that I created with MySQL (inventory, customer, etc).  I'm not
sure if I can freely bundle these database files with my program when I
distribute it to my customer so I have a question:

Does there exist something like MySQL that I can use to create files
with and distribute with programs that I write without having to pay
licensing fees?

Thanks, all!

Korto
Daniel Dyer - 30 Oct 2006 23:09 GMT
> Hi!  I am writing a program for a client and I'm using several database
> files that I created with MySQL (inventory, customer, etc).  I'm not
> sure if I can freely bundle these database files with my program when I
> distribute it to my customer so I have a question:

Are you talking about the actual data files created?  As far as I am  
aware, the output of a GPL program is not itself covered by the GPL.  If  
you are talking about the database engine itself or the JDBC driver, then  
your application will be bound by the terms of the GPL (you would have to  
provide source to everybody that you provided binaries to).  But you  
shouldn't be taking legal advice from some random bloke on USENET.

> Does there exist something like MySQL that I can use to create files
> with and distribute with programs that I write without having to pay
> licensing fees?

Look for something with a BSD or Apache licence.  PostgreSQL and Derby are  
the two alternatives that spring to mind.

Dan.

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Daniel Dyer
http://www.uncommons.org

Thomas Weidenfeller - 31 Oct 2006 10:43 GMT
> Hi!  I am writing a program for a client and I'm using several database
> files that I created with MySQL (inventory, customer, etc).  I'm not
> sure if I can freely bundle these database files with my program when I
> distribute it to my customer so I have a question:

I have sad this a few times, and I will say it again. Seeking legal
advice on Usenet is a rather bad idea. Do you think a judge will buy
your claim "But that stranger on Usenet told me so!" if things go wrong?

Pay and ask a lawyer, if this is an important matter for you.

/Thomas
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ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/computer-lang/java/gui/faq

Christopher Benson-Manica - 31 Oct 2006 13:51 GMT
> Hi!  I am writing a program for a client and I'm using several database
> files that I created with MySQL (inventory, customer, etc).  I'm not
> sure if I can freely bundle these database files with my program when I
> distribute it to my customer so I have a question:

> Does there exist something like MySQL that I can use to create files
> with and distribute with programs that I write without having to pay
> licensing fees?

You might consider asking this on misc.legal.computing.

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jpbisguier@yahoo.ca - 31 Oct 2006 14:15 GMT
i know some commerical programs like sam party dj
http://www.spacialaudio.com/products/sampartydj/ use firebird as their
database engine http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
you can use sql server 2005 express too but you have to get permission
from microsoft:
embedding:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnsse/html/emsq
lexcustapp.asp

licensing:
http://www.microsoft.com/sql/editions/express/redistregister.mspx

hope this helps

> Hi!  I am writing a program for a client and I'm using several database
> files that I created with MySQL (inventory, customer, etc).  I'm not
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Korto
David Segall - 31 Oct 2006 14:18 GMT
>Hi!  I am writing a program for a client and I'm using several database
>files that I created with MySQL (inventory, customer, etc).  I'm not
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>with and distribute with programs that I write without having to pay
>licensing fees?
I have what I believe to be a complete list of freely distributable
"heavy duty" databases at <http://database.profectus.com.au>. MySQL
Community Edition is included. I would be horrified if you are
restricted from distributing the output that you have created from
_any_ program even if you are restricted from distributing the program
itself. In your case you can distribute both the database files and
the Community Edition of MySQL. I think that MySQL is licensed under
the Gnu Programming License so it would be sensible to include the
license with your distribution and provide a link to the MySQL source
code.
Chris Uppal - 31 Oct 2006 15:03 GMT
> Hi!  I am writing a program for a client and I'm using several database
> files that I created with MySQL (inventory, customer, etc).  I'm not
> sure if I can freely bundle these database files with my program when I
> distribute it to my customer so I have a question:

IIRC, the MySQL FAQ includes a section on what you can and can't do with MySQL
without paying a license fee.  If it's not in the FAQ then it's somewhere on
their website.

Obviously, you should consult a lawyer for a worthwhile opinion ("worthwhile"
in that seeking it covers your arse against accusations of professional
negligence).  But reading the FAQ may possibly allow you to save that expense.

> Does there exist something like MySQL that I can use to create files
> with and distribute with programs that I write without having to pay
> licensing fees?

Yes.  Any database which comes with a less restrictive licence than MySQL.  I
think PostgesSQL and HSQLDB both qualify, and there are others.

   -- chris
Korto - 08 Nov 2006 20:21 GMT
Thank you, everyone, for the advice and input.  You are correct, I may
need to talk with a legal expert before I continue on with this
project.  Also, I'll check out those freely distributable databases and
also look into the Community Edition of MySQL.

Again, thank you all very much for your help!

Korto

> Hi!  I am writing a program for a client and I'm using several database
> files that I created with MySQL (inventory, customer, etc).  I'm not
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Korto
Chris Smith - 14 Nov 2006 19:24 GMT
> Thank you, everyone, for the advice and input.  You are correct, I may
> need to talk with a legal expert before I continue on with this
> project.  Also, I'll check out those freely distributable databases and
> also look into the Community Edition of MySQL.

As I said elsewhere in the thread, talking to a lawyer is not
necessarily a good idea.  It costs money, and it also doesn't guarantee
that you won't be the subject of legal action in the future.  MySQL
either intentionally misleads or has greatly exaggerated views of their
ability to restrict your rights, and they clearly don't want you to do
what you are planning to do.  They can cost you a lot of money with a
lawsuit, even if they lose.

I'd just avoid MySQL altogether; it's not like there are no other
databases out there.  For example, PostgreSQL is distributed under a
license and the INTENT to allow you to do whatever you want with it.  
The developers have a long history of working well with companies that
sell improved versions of the core DBMS, much less applications that use
it.  No one has even close to majority ownership, so there's no one to
sue you anyway.  This basically completely avoids the legal risk you're
taking with MySQL.

Signature

Chris Smith

Daniel Pitts - 08 Nov 2006 21:36 GMT
> Hi!  I am writing a program for a client and I'm using several database
> files that I created with MySQL (inventory, customer, etc).  I'm not
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Korto

You can distribute SQL scripts that you have created, since they are
your creation, and although they won't do anything without the
database, they are not part of the dataqbase.  That may be the best
approach.
Simon Brooke - 09 Nov 2006 13:06 GMT
>> Hi!  I am writing a program for a client and I'm using several database
>> files that I created with MySQL (inventory, customer, etc).  I'm not
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> database, they are not part of the dataqbase.  That may be the best
> approach.

Who owns the copyright on the files, you or the client? If you then you can
give it to the client because you own it. If the client, then you /must/
give it to the client, because he owns it.

You don't have to pay any licence fees for using MySQL anyway, it's open
source.

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simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

               Do not sail on uphill water.
                                                       - Bill Lee

Chris Uppal - 09 Nov 2006 13:17 GMT
> You don't have to pay any licence fees for using MySQL anyway, it's open
> source.

It's open source, yes.  It's even Open Source.  But it is /not/ freely
redistributable -- and that is the whole point of this conversation, since the
OP will be distributing the DBMS with the application.

   -- chris
David Segall - 09 Nov 2006 15:21 GMT
>> You don't have to pay any licence fees for using MySQL anyway, it's open
>> source.
>
>It's open source, yes.  It's even Open Source.  But it is /not/ freely
>redistributable -- and that is the whole point of this conversation, since the
>OP will be distributing the DBMS with the application.
The MySQL Database Server Community Edition comes with a GNU Public
License. Apart from some simple conditions such as the obligation to
provide the source code on request is there anything that prevents the
OP from distributing the DBMS with the application?
Chris Uppal - 10 Nov 2006 12:32 GMT
> > > You don't have to pay any licence fees for using MySQL anyway, it's
> > > open source.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> provide the source code on request is there anything that prevents the
> OP from distributing the DBMS with the application?

You mean other than the requirement to GPL (or similar) the whole application ?

   -- chris
David Segall - 10 Nov 2006 14:41 GMT
>> > > You don't have to pay any licence fees for using MySQL anyway, it's
>> > > open source.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>You mean other than the requirement to GPL (or similar) the whole application ?
There is no requirement to GPL an application because it makes use of
a separate GPL application. If there was Oracle would be GPL because
it runs on Linux. Even Microsoft would be in trouble for using
applications that are licensed under the GPL
<http://www.microsoft.com/technet/interopmigration/unix/sfu/default.mspx>.
Microsoft is obliged to, and does, provide a copy of the license and
offer to provide the source code. As far as I am aware that is all the
OP needs to do if he wants to use a Gnu Public Licensed database.
Thomas Hawtin - 10 Nov 2006 14:58 GMT
>> You mean other than the requirement to GPL (or similar) the whole application ?
> There is no requirement to GPL an application because it makes use of
> a separate GPL application. If there was Oracle would be GPL because

That does not appear to be in agreement with the claims of MySQL AB.

http://www.mysql.com/company/legal/licensing/commercial-license.html

Tom Hawtin
Arne Vajhøj - 10 Nov 2006 23:25 GMT
>>> You mean other than the requirement to GPL (or similar) the whole
>>> application ?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> http://www.mysql.com/company/legal/licensing/commercial-license.html

I think MySQL has been intentionally FUD'ing a bit in this
area.

I belive that the common interpretation is:
  - if you you ship MySQL code with your code you need to
    either be GPL/FOSS or pay for a commercial license
  - if you don't ship any MySQL code then they can not
    claim any GPL issues at all

This is not what MySQL say in the above link.

"If you develop and distribute a commercial application and as part of
utilizing your application, the end-user must download a copy of MySQL;
for each derivative work, you (or, in some cases, your end-user) need a
commercial license for the MySQL server and/or MySQL client libraries."

But as I understand the GPL license then it is strictly about
distribution. If you don't distribute any GPL software, then
GPL does not apply to you.

If the MySQL interpretation above was correct, then any software
for Linux would be be GPL'ed. It is rather obvious that a
Linux binary requires the user to install Linux.

That is what I call common sense. Ask a lawyer for a true legal
evaluation. I can not guarantee that the license law will follow what
I consider common sense.

Arne
Daniel Dyer - 11 Nov 2006 00:01 GMT
> I think MySQL has been intentionally FUD'ing a bit in this
> area.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> for Linux would be be GPL'ed. It is rather obvious that a
> Linux binary requires the user to install Linux.

The licence terms are mostly dependent on the definition of "linking".  If  
your application links with MySQL code then it is required to be made  
available under the same terms.  The important libraries for linking with  
on Linux, such as glibc, are licensed under the LGPL rather than the GPL.

You are right though, it is in MySQL's interest to promote a very broad  
definition of "linking".  The MySQL JDBC connector used to be available  
under the LGPL but was changed to GPL a few years ago, presumably so that  
they could sell more commercial licences.

Beyond not distributing MySQL (and, more importantly, the JDBC driver)  
with your application, to be extra safe you should probably also ensure  
that your code makes no reference to anything MySQL-related (including  
JDBC URLs and driver strings).  If your application uses the standard JDBC  
API, and will work with other RDBMS options, then if one of your users  
downloads MySQL and its JDBC driver and configures your app to use it, I  
can't see how you can be held responsible for "linking".  Anything less  
clearly separated is a grey area.

Easiest solution: use PostgreSQL and avoid the hassle.  Oracle Express  
Edition (or the equivalent free version of SQL Server or DB2) might also  
be sufficient but it is a bit heavyweight.

Dan.

Signature

Daniel Dyer
http://www.uncommons.org

Arne Vajhøj - 11 Nov 2006 00:52 GMT
> The licence terms are mostly dependent on the definition of "linking".  
> If your application links with MySQL code then it is required to be made
> available under the same terms.  The important libraries for linking
> with on Linux, such as glibc, are licensed under the LGPL rather than
> the GPL.

One important question is the meaning of "linking", which is somewhat
different in the Java/.NET world today than in the 1980's C/C++ world.

But I still think there are a point in distribution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License

(wikipedia is not an authoritative source but ...)

Quotes:

"The GPL does not give the licensee unlimited redistribution rights. The
right to redistribute is granted only if the licensee includes the
source code (or a legally binding offer to provide the source code),
including any modifications made. Furthermore, the distributed copies,
including the modifications, must also be licensed under the terms of
the GPL."

"This requirement is known as copyleft, and it gets its legal teeth from
the fact that the program is copyrighted. Because it is copyrighted, a
licensee has no right to modify or redistribute it (barring fair use),
except under the terms of the copyleft."

"The copyleft only applies when a person seeks to redistribute the program."

To me this seems to be strictly tied to distribution.

Arne
Daniel Dyer - 11 Nov 2006 01:25 GMT
>> The licence terms are mostly dependent on the definition of "linking".  
>> If your application links with MySQL code then it is required to be  
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> But I still think there are a point in distribution.

I didn't mean to suggest that it was irrelevant.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> To me this seems to be strictly tied to distribution.

Your argument makes sense and there seems to be nothing in the text of the  
licence itself that would contradict it.  The FAQ for the GPL  
(http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html) is a bit less clear.  But then  
again, it's not exactly a balanced document.  I found this gem warning me  
of the perils of not using the GPL for my software:

"Only people willing to give up their freedom will use your software,  
which means that it will effectively function as an inducement for people  
to lose their freedom."

Dan.

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Daniel Dyer
http://www.uncommons.org

Chris Uppal - 13 Nov 2006 08:23 GMT
[me:]
> > You mean other than the requirement to GPL (or similar) the whole
> > application ?
> There is no requirement to GPL an application because it makes use of
> a separate GPL application.

If you (the supplier of the software) supply GPled s/w as part of your
delivered application then I think the terms of the GPL are clear -- the whole
application must be GPLed or supplied under the terms of some other
GPL-compatible[*] licence.

Whether those terms are acceptable to suppliers, including suppliers of
commercial apps, is a different matter.  If they /are/ acceptable then fine; if
not then that's just tough.

   -- chris

[*] Note: not even all "free" software comes with a GPL-compatible license.  I
doubt, though I'm not certain, whether the licence for my own free stuff is
GPL-compatible -- not that I care very much either way.
Chris Smith - 14 Nov 2006 19:30 GMT
> If you (the supplier of the software) supply GPled s/w as part of your
> delivered application then I think the terms of the GPL are clear -- the whole
> application must be GPLed or supplied under the terms of some other
> GPL-compatible[*] licence.

Right.  The question, then, is whether a DBMS is part of an application,
or another application that interacts with the application in question.  
I think it's pretty obvious that the latter is true.  Others may
disagree.  MySQL is (IMO rather transparently) on a campaign to distort
the meaning of the GPL to the point that no one is quite sure what to
think.  Yes, I'm rather frustrated by their actions, in part because
I've written and published GPL software in the past that may be a victim
of their campaign of misinformation.

In any case, not using MySQL removes the difficulty at very little cost.  
In fact, people should really just stop considering MySQL a GPL'ed
product, because the legal threats do just as much harm to people's
freedoms as a more restrictive license does.

Signature

Chris Smith

Chris Uppal - 15 Nov 2006 11:19 GMT
[me:]
> > If you (the supplier of the software) supply GPled s/w as part of your
> > delivered application then I think the terms of the GPL are clear --
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I think it's pretty obvious that the latter is true.  Others may
> disagree.

Me, for one ;-)

I'll agree that there may be cases where an application is clearly independent
of MySQL, even if a MySQL installation is shipped with it, and the user is
given the option of installing it.  For the me (no lawyer) the criterion would
be "does the application clearly run, and do something useful (perhaps with
reduced functionality), if MySQL isn't available ?"  One easy way to achieve
that logical separation would be if the app worked just as well with a range of
DBMSs, and was capable of using whatever the user had installed (within
reason).  That doesn't seem too far away from the language of the GPL (section
2)

   These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole.
   If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the
   Program, and can be reasonably considered independent
   and separate works in themselves, then this License, and
   its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute
   them as separate works. But when you distribute the same
   sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the
   Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms
   of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend
   to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless
   of who wrote it.

But I wouldn't want to bet money that a lawyer/court would agree that the
separation I mentioned above is sufficient to make the last quoted sentence
irrelevant.

And often, of course, applications do not have that degree of separation -- in
which case I would claim that the DBMS /is/ part of the delivered app and the
terms of the GPL apply in full force.

> MySQL is (IMO rather transparently) on a campaign to distort
> the meaning of the GPL to the point that no one is quite sure what to
> think.

I'm not convinced that many people will pay much attention to how MySQL choose
to interpret the GPL.  Hell, I'm not convinced that many people even think
about how /they/ interpret the GPL beyond "I didn't pay for this stuff, so I
can do whatever I like with it".

But I do agree that it would be better if MySQL issued their stuff under a
licence which says what they want it to say, rather than (even partly)
overloading the GPL.

> In any case, not using MySQL removes the difficulty at very little cost.

Agreed.

> In fact, people should really just stop considering MySQL a GPL'ed
> product, because the legal threats do just as much harm to people's
> freedoms as a more restrictive license does.

There's something to be said for that too.

   -- chris
Simon Brooke - 10 Nov 2006 14:53 GMT
>> > > You don't have to pay any licence fees for using MySQL anyway, it's
>> > > open source.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> You mean other than the requirement to GPL (or similar) the whole
> application ?

And the problem with that is? It's the licence I use for all the products I
ship to clients.

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simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

       to err is human, to lisp divine
                                ;; attributed to Kim Philby, oddly enough.

Daniel Dyer - 10 Nov 2006 15:35 GMT
>> You mean other than the requirement to GPL (or similar) the whole
>> application ?
>
> And the problem with that is? It's the licence I use for all the  
> products I
> ship to clients.

The problem is if you are intending to sell the same code to different  
people.  Once you have given one client the source code they are free to  
do whatever they like with it, including give it away free to people who  
would otherwise have paid you for it.  The FSF would argue that this is a  
good thing, but if you want to make repeat revenues you are not protected  
from the actions of your clients.  This means a model like Microsoft uses  
for Office or Adobe uses for Photoshop would not work using the GPL as the  
licence.  You can't cover your costs by charging several customers a small  
amount because somebody will scupper you by giving your work away for free.

Dan.

Signature

Daniel Dyer
http://www.dandyer.co.uk

Chris Uppal - 13 Nov 2006 08:54 GMT
[me:]
> > You mean other than the requirement to GPL (or similar) the whole
> > application ?
>
> And the problem with that is? It's the licence I use for all the products
> I ship to clients.

No problem at all, /if/ that fits your commercial model.

   -- chris
Chris Smith - 14 Nov 2006 19:16 GMT
> The MySQL Database Server Community Edition comes with a GNU Public
> License. Apart from some simple conditions such as the obligation to
> provide the source code on request is there anything that prevents the
> OP from distributing the DBMS with the application?

This is debatable, but MySQL's position as I understand it is that yes,
there is something that prevents this.  If you read further, as I have
in the past, there are even more eyebrow-raising statements out there
from the MySQL AB, including: (a) telling customers that an app will
work with MySQL counts as "distribution" of MySQL, and (b) MySQL refuses
to tell you whether they think you need a license or not, but it's safer
if you buy a license.

In the end, I disagree with the advice to ask a lawyer.  Instead, I
would avoid MySQL altogether for pretty my anything, even GPL
applications.  We're talking about a company that has delusional views
of their legal rights, and a propensity to at least threaten legal
action on a regular basis.  Talking to a lawyer doesn't protect you from
expensive legal action in the future.  Even if your app is GPL, can you
be sure what they will do if you decide not to relicense under GPL v3
when it comes out, for example?

There are good quality databases out there that are not as likely to get
you sued.  Several have already been mentioned in this thread.

Signature

Chris Smith

David Segall - 15 Nov 2006 06:07 GMT
>> The MySQL Database Server Community Edition comes with a GNU Public
>> License. Apart from some simple conditions such as the obligation to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>to tell you whether they think you need a license or not, but it's safer
>if you buy a license.
Thanks Chris. You have explained the basis of this thread. I have
never had anything to do with MySQL so I was extremely puzzled by the
OPs concerns. PostgreSQL encourages widespread free distribution and
Derby, the one I am using at the moment, is about to be distributed as
part of the Java language. Why does anyone use MySQL, particularly
since there are so many freely distributable choices and most people
have no interest in the source code?
Chris Uppal - 15 Nov 2006 11:23 GMT
> Why does anyone use MySQL, particularly
> since there are so many freely distributable choices and most people
> have no interest in the source code?

Search me...

I don't know of any technical reasons either, although I'm no expert on the
relative technical merits of DBMSs.

   -- chris (Uppal, note, not Smith)
Robert M. Gary - 11 Nov 2006 00:12 GMT
> > You don't have to pay any licence fees for using MySQL anyway, it's open
> > source.
>
> It's open source, yes.  It's even Open Source.  But it is /not/ freely
> redistributable -- and that is the whole point of this conversation, since the
> OP will be distributing the DBMS with the application.

Even when something has a clear GPL license we always send it all the
way through legal.

-Robert


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