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Java Forum / General / November 2006Recommend a good programming environment for beginner?
Howdy. I'm taking a java class, and they unfortunately just have us using the DOS cmd liine and notepad to program. I'd like to use a good environment. I used to use Codewarrior. Netbeans came with the Java download from Sun, but it overwhelmed me, seems like I'd have to invest a lot in learning it. Does anybody know of a sleeker, easier to get used to environment? Alternatively, anyone know of a good, simple, easy to follow tutorial to get one up an running in netbeans? Thanks a heap.... Bill J. > Howdy. I'm taking a java class, and they unfortunately just have us > using the DOS cmd liine and notepad to program. I'd like to use a good [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Bill J. Hell yeah Bill J! Just try Blue J: http://edu.netbeans.org/bluej/ It's like NetBeans but without the girth. This was developed originally by university professors and students and is geared for those learning java. Give it a try. ;) Danno >> Alternatively, anyone know of a good, simple, easy to follow tutorial >> to get one up an running in netbeans? It might be better to stick with what the class is using, you'll be able to get more help from the prof and fellow students. Try this quick start guide: http://www.netbeans.org/kb/50/quickstart.html Then see if this tutorial is useful: http://www.netbeans.org/kb/50/using-netbeans/index.html There are more like that here: http://www.netbeans.org/kb/50/index.html > Hell yeah Bill J! Just try Blue J: http://edu.netbeans.org/bluej/ > > It's like NetBeans but without the girth. This was developed > originally by university professors and students and is geared for > those learning java. Give it a try. ;) As long as it's not Eclipse, it can't be all bad. ^_^ I've never tried this, I might check it out tho. > > Howdy. I'm taking a java class, and they unfortunately just have us > > using the DOS cmd liine and notepad to program. I'd like to use a good [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Danno Thanks much! Bill J. > Howdy. I'm taking a java class, and they unfortunately just have us > using the DOS cmd liine and notepad to program. I'd like to use a good [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Bill J. I can't tell from briefly glancing at your headers if you use windows or not. If you do I suggest GEL - it is the most no frills GUI environment (just be sure to turn off smart tabs cause they don't work) Sometimes it crashes - so I guess it is not perfect, but for small learner projects where you don't want code that you don't understand being autogenerated and/or hidden - it is the best out there. I have historically used Netbeans to make my dialogs, and then used GEL to implement my project. Really though, once you get the basics down (after about 60 hours of coding) you will want to make GUI apps and the integrated environments can't be beat. I actually like NetBeans when I have a "project" but when I have a single class/single file (usually console based) I use GEL all the time. On the other hand using the console and notepad or VI with a couple nice batch files is not a bad learning tool. -- LTP :) Thanks Mark and Luc! Bill J. > Thanks Mark and Luc! > > Bill J. Yes Bill, what Mark and Luc said is very good. I use GEL for quick stuff but now a days have been hanging around Eclipse for Java and PHP. Netbeans BlueJ Edition is nice if migrating up to the big boys toys lol... You may want to look at Just BlueJ. Since you are learning the language this may be the better approach. It will help you learn Java with a OOP and OOD orientation. http://www.bluej.org  SignatureThanks in Advance... http://ichbin.9999mb.com IchBin, Pocono Lake, Pa, USA http://weconsultants.phpnet.us __________________________________________________________________________ 'If there is one, Knowledge is the "Fountain of Youth"' -William E. Taylor, Regular Guy (1952-) > > Thanks Mark and Luc! > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > 'If there is one, Knowledge is the "Fountain of Youth"' > -William E. Taylor, Regular Guy (1952-) Many thanks. I did try BlueJ, but it wasn't much better than NetBeans. It just didn't make sense to me. I'm sure if I invested a little time to read the docs it would, and I like the idea of taking a step towards netbeans, but I just didn't have time and in fact submitted my assignments late, 50% off. After an hour I gave up and tried jGRASP. It was immediately intuitively familiar, from other IDEs, and I got the programs written pronto. So I'll stick with it until such time as I have time to check into BlueJ a bit more. Thanks much... >>> Thanks Mark and Luc! >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Thanks much... You are right, JGRASP is more intuitive. I normally do recommend JGRASP but was caught up on the Netbeans thing. They are both from academia so you can't go wrong. JGRASP has the older IDE feel from days gone by... SignatureThanks in Advance... http://ichbin.9999mb.com IchBin, Pocono Lake, Pa, USA http://weconsultants.phpnet.us ______________________________________________________________ 'If there is one, Knowledge is the "Fountain of Youth"' -William E. Taylor, Regular Guy (1952-) Dudes......... you are missing the point!!! netbeans is no way considered to be user friendly. JCreator is an excellent editor for beginners.........(but its windows based :( ) . Anyway Eclipse is the best of the best of the best . you cant beat this IDE . really once you get to know what is a workspace and what is a package.........you are on cloud 9 with eclipse....Besides it looks so much better on linux than netbeans !!! either go for JCreator or eclipse .Dont bother yourself with netbeans. Netbeans (i use it for just the matissa thing which rocks! ) > Dudes......... > you are missing the point!!! netbeans is no way considered [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > either go for JCreator or eclipse .Dont bother yourself with netbeans. > Netbeans (i use it for just the matissa thing which rocks! ) What's the matissa thing? Does eclipse have the power of netbeans? Thanks, dude.... >> Dudes......... >> you are missing the point!!! netbeans is no way considered [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Thanks, dude.... Yes, its call the Visual Editor (VE) project. SignatureThanks in Advance... http://ichbinquotations.awardspace.com IchBin, Pocono Lake, Pa, USA http://weconsultants.phpnet.us ______________________________________________________________________ 'If there is one, Knowledge is the "Fountain of Youth"' -William E. Taylor, Regular Guy (1952-) avoid these netbeans stereo types....... as a beginner you are better off with eclipse....netbeans has so many bugs (null pointer exception , overflow exception ) to name a few . ! > What's the matissa thing? A very nice GUI editor (aka "form" designer) for particular tasks, which is part of NetBeans. May I provide some general suggestions? Instead of listening to the fanboys ("the best of the best" ha, ha, ha) a) you accept the fact the there is no such thing as "the best" tool, IDE, computer language, etc. b) many depends on individual preferences, the task at hand, experience, education, requirements, etc. And, yes, even it seems many depends on the mental health and sanity of the user c) Which, as a consequence, means you, and only you can decide what is "the best" in your particular circumstances, with your particular background. d) In other words: Try them. Try them all, or at least try as much as you can get your hands on e) Select at least two you like best and use them. Two, or more, so you don't get dependent on a certain IDE. So you aren't helpless, don't look stupid, and don't have to whine should you have to work in an environment where your "best" tool is not available. So you can look beyond your own nose and don't have to utter nonsense like "the best of the best oft the ..." f) Learn to use the command line tools, too. For the same reason as above. In fact, I in general suggest to first master the command line tools and all the basics around them before starting with an IDE. > Does eclipse have the power of netbeans? Power? Another meaningless term in this discussion. It depends on what you need. > Thanks, dude.... You are aware that many people here don't like to be called "dude"? /Thomas SignatureThe comp.lang.java.gui FAQ: http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/faqs/faqs-hierarchy/comp/comp.lang.java.gui/ ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/computer-lang/java/gui/faq > May I provide some general suggestions? Instead of listening to the > fanboys ("the best of the best" ha, ha, ha) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > d) In other words: Try them. Try them all, or at least try as much as > you can get your hands on > e) Select at least two you like best and use them. Two, or more, so you > don't get dependent on a certain IDE. So you aren't helpless, don't look > stupid, and don't have to whine should you have to work in an > environment where your "best" tool is not available. So you can look > beyond your own nose and don't have to utter nonsense like "the best of > the best oft the ..." > f) Learn to use the command line tools, too. For the same reason as > above. In fact, I in general suggest to first master the command line [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Power? Another meaningless term in this discussion. It depends on what > you need. Each and every word of yours is right.............. I agree totally . As you said beginners should first know how to use the command line options before going for IDE. this is the suggested to the person who started this topic . do try out the command line option and then switch over.......... As you say , it avoids people from getting dependent on IDEs when they are not available .The command line is always there for you! I was carried off with the eclipse topic ! your suggestions make more sense and are logical......!!! Eclipse is good though :) Thomas Weidenfeller wrote: > e) Select at least two you like best and use them. Two, or more, so you don't get dependent on a certain IDE. I wish my managers at various jobs understood this. In enterprise development it is not uncommon for the Powers That Be to mandate an IDE for all developers in the name of "consistency" (hark to Ralph Waldo Emerson's warning about "a foolish consistency") and the ability to "share knowledge". But they ignore the dangers of IDE dependencies. For example, Eclipse is sometimes too smart - I've seen it resolve classpath issues silently, which messed up a delivery that was built without Eclipse's help. IDEs often include their own libraries, sometimes, like Netbeans's "AbsoluteLayout" or WebSphere Application Developer's SWT GUI library, that can be a problem where wider standards are desirable. I believe that emacs (or vi) in conjunction with an Ant-driven build is the "best" way to guarantee a clean delivery, though not necessarily the most productive for development and debugging. Besides these issues, if you're a working programmer you need to be facile enough to adopt whatever mandatory IDE your employer (foolishly?) demands. - Lew > Thomas Weidenfeller wrote: >> e) Select at least two you like best and use them. Two, or more, so you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Emerson's warning about "a foolish consistency") and the ability to > "share knowledge". But they ignore the dangers of IDE dependencies. Agreed. In our team we use a mix of IDEA and Eclipse. IDE configuration files are banned from Subversion and builds are decoupled from particular IDEs by using Ant. This post (http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t83124.html) from the other day illustrates your point. The poster can't find enough Java developers in London who have NetBeans experience and won't consider otherwise highly skilled developers who happen to use a different tool. Even ignoring the argument against standardising on one IDE, it would not take long for a competent developer to learn NetBeans. > I believe that emacs (or vi) in conjunction with an Ant-driven build is > the "best" way to guarantee a clean delivery, though not necessarily the > most productive for development and debugging. We use Continuum (on a machine that has only Ant installed) to make sure our projects build without any unwelcome tool dependencies. Dan. SignatureDaniel Dyer http://www.uncommons.org > > What's the matissa thing? > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/faqs/faqs-hierarchy/comp/comp.lang.java.gui/ > ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/computer-lang/java/gui/faq Heh, heh. And don't forget: g) now, when you've completed a - f, fill out your application for a retirement home, since that has taken your entire life. Of course, java is no longer in use at this time, but you can benefit from your vast research by writing an archeological tomb describing odd strctural languages for human control of digital computers in the 21st century. And, dude, I said dude, because some people don't like dude, and somebody called me dude, so just to tease that dude, I said dude, but of course everyone reading it probably felt like I was calling them dude, see what I mean, dude? > Heh, heh. And don't forget: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > research by writing an archeological tomb describing odd strctural > languages for human control of digital computers in the 21st century. Sorry, I was not aware that you don't want to elevate above script kiddie level. I hope the academic standards at New Mexico State are higher and they either teach you some common sense or let you fail your course. > And, dude, I said dude, because some people don't like dude, and > somebody called me dude, so just to tease that dude, I said dude, but > of course everyone reading it probably felt like I was calling them > dude, see what I mean, dude? I see that you like to intentionally insult people. For me you sound as if you are doing too much weed. Both will definitely limit your academic career. /Thomas SignatureThe comp.lang.java.gui FAQ: http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/faqs/faqs-hierarchy/comp/comp.lang.java.gui/ ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/computer-lang/java/gui/faq > > Heh, heh. And don't forget: > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/faqs/faqs-hierarchy/comp/comp.lang.java.gui/ > ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/computer-lang/java/gui/faq Thomas, when I come here for a quick answer, it is not appropriate to suggest I go learn all of the environments. I could have figured that out myself. Anyway, no intention to hurt your feelings as I apparently did. I was trying to be humorous. But, no worries. Have a good day... > > Heh, heh. And don't forget: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > higher and they either teach you some common sense or let you fail your > course. Uncalled for. > > And, dude, I said dude, because some people don't like dude, and > > somebody called me dude, so just to tease that dude, I said dude, but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > if you are doing too much weed. Both will definitely limit your academic > career. Dude isn't insulting. > /Thomas > -- > The comp.lang.java.gui FAQ: > http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/faqs/faqs-hierarchy/comp/comp.lang.java.gui/ > ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/computer-lang/java/gui/faq > > > Heh, heh. And don't forget: > > > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > http://gd.tuwien.ac.at/faqs/faqs-hierarchy/comp/comp.lang.java.gui/ > > ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/computer-lang/java/gui/faq Way, dude. Dudes......... you are missing the point!!! netbeans is no way considered to be user friendly. JCreator is an excellent editor for beginners.........(but its windows based :( ) . Anyway Eclipse is the best of the best of the best . you cant beat this IDE . really once you get to know what is a workspace and what is a package.........you are on cloud 9 with eclipse....Besides it looks so much better on linux than netbeans !!! either go for JCreator or eclipse .Dont bother yourself with netbeans. Netbeans (i use it for just the matissa thing which rocks! ) > Dudes......... > you are missing the point!!! netbeans is no way considered [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > either go for JCreator or eclipse .Dont bother yourself with netbeans. > Netbeans (i use it for just the matissa thing which rocks! ) Dude, you're high. Eclipse blows chunks. NetBeans was ascended to heaven once cause God needed to fix the strength of hurricane cycles from last year. He needed a powerful Java IDE to do so, he chose NetBeans, and of course it rocked because he liked the ant integration. ;) Kidding aside, NetBeans looks real good on Linux too. I just plug in my greatest font into the java runtime and zammo, something real nice. Here is my screenshot: http://www.evolutionnext.com/blog/images/NetBeans-large.png NetBeans 5.5 is out and comes with awesome features. Hey, does Eclipse has subversion plugins? > > Dudes......... > > you are missing the point!!! netbeans is no way considered [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Hey, does Eclipse has subversion plugins? That looks excellent, and like something I could intuitively use right away. But when I downloaded it and started it, it looked nothing like that at all. Is the a quick path to getting NetBeans like you have it? Thanks much.... > > Dudes......... > > you are missing the point!!! netbeans is no way considered [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Hey, does Eclipse has subversion plugins? Dude, I think you need to consult an eye doctor ;)....Netbeans hurts my eyes on linux ..... Eclipse rocks :p . Here are some screen shots to support my view . Netbeans : http://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=myeyesvn4.jpg ( Even after selecting anti-aliasing option!!! ) Eclipse :http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4026/godsr2.jpg By the way i think you should atleast have the courage to agree that netbeans is slower than eclipse and it is buggy. I suppose you have never used plug ins in eclipse. Eclipse look rocks both on windows and linux . I prefer eclipse 1000 times over Netbeans except for Matissa which i agree rocks!!! so you see i am not a "Anti-Netbeans" radical nor an "Eclipse-High" guy but i like things according to the features and Eclipse clearly is the winner for me! i do not enforce my view on anyone neither was this my intention . Even the simplest feature like generating getters and setters is not easily accessible in netbeans . you have to click within the class body and press ctrl+space to get the list (for which you have to wait some time , then you waste more time by searching for your option ) The list goes on and on!!! This has been argued over and over again on the net and there is no end to it. I end this by saying that taste matters mostly !!! > > > Dudes......... > > > you are missing the point!!! netbeans is no way considered [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Eclipse :http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4026/godsr2.jpg I am not going to take anyone who doesn't use monospaced fonts seriously. > By the way i think you should atleast have the courage to agree that > netbeans is slower than eclipse and it is buggy. I suppose you have > never used plug ins in eclipse. Eclipse look rocks both on windows and > linux . netbeans isn't slower, and it is not buggy. > I prefer eclipse 1000 times over Netbeans except > for Matissa which i agree rocks!!! so you see i am not a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Even the simplest feature like generating getters and setters is not > easily accessible in netbeans . You can just go to BeanPatterns -> Add Property and be done with it. you have to click within the class body > and press ctrl+space to get the list (for which you have to wait some > time , then you waste more time by searching for your option ) > The list goes on and on!!! This has been argued over and over > again on the net and there is no end to it. I end this by saying that > taste matters mostly !!! > Thanks Mark and Luc! > > Bill J. You might also want to take a look at jCreator if you're running on Windows. There's a review here that explains why: http://www.techbookreport.com/tbr0173.html jCreator: http://www.jcreator.com/ You might also want to look at jEdit for a pure Java solution. A review here: http://www.techbookreport.com/tbr0135.html jEdit: http://www.jedit.org HTH SignatureTechBookReport Java http://www.techbookreport.com/JavaIndex.html > > Thanks Mark and Luc! > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > -- > TechBookReport Java http://www.techbookreport.com/JavaIndex.html Many thanks. Seems like lots of java tools out there. I wonder if there are more than C tools....seems like it.... Thanks.... http://fieldbird.com/JavaTools/ might help you get started. > Howdy. I'm taking a java class, and they unfortunately just have us > using the DOS cmd liine and notepad to program. I'd like to use a good > environment. I used to use Codewarrior. Netbeans came with the Java > download from Sun, but it overwhelmed me, seems like I'd have to invest > a lot in learning it. Does anybody know of a sleeker, easier to get > used to environment? IMHO full blown IDE's such as Netbeans and Eclipse are huge and bloated, but unfortunately in the industry pretty indispensible if you are writing J2EE applications. For standard Java applications, I find heavyweight IDE's more of a hinderance than a help. Certainly at the level you are at (Learning Java) they will get in the way more than they will help. My personal recommendation is to use jEdit (www.jedit.org), since it a superb text editor (leaving NetBeans and Eclipse far behind in as far as the editor components go), and is extensible with a host of standard plugins and macros. The only plugin you will want to start with is the Console plugin, which will let you write Java program in the editor, and compile and run them in the integrated console without having to manually type in the commands each time. In addition, jEdits console plugin comes with a Beanshell interpreter, which is great for testing out snippets of Java code to see what it does without the full compile - run cycle. > > Howdy. I'm taking a java class, and they unfortunately just have us > > using the DOS cmd liine and notepad to program. I'd like to use a good [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > which is great for testing out snippets of Java code to see what it > does without the full compile - run cycle. Thanks much. I came back to this thread because jGRASP is a horrible editor. I can't indent so spend all my time trying to get tabs lined up. Drives me batty. I never realized how much i depend on smart editors. Tempted to use emacs, but I don't know how to get it to work with a java compiler in windows. Thanks.... > Thanks much. I came back to this thread because jGRASP is a horrible > editor. I can't indent so spend all my time trying to get tabs lined > up. Drives me batty. I never realized how much i depend on smart > editors. Tempted to use emacs, but I don't know how to get it to work > with a java compiler in windows. If you want a good, capable, easy to use Windows editor, visit Winsite <http://www.winsite.com/> and pick up PFE, Programmer's File Editor. You want the 9x version. Apart from ported *nix editors, e.g. microEmacs, its the best Windows text editor I know. Yes, it does auto-indentation. It also configure it differently for each file extension. About the only things it doesn't do are colored syntax and regex searching. Its easy to make it run javac and return the error messages in a window. Signaturemartin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | > > Howdy. I'm taking a java class, and they unfortunately just have us > > using the DOS cmd liine and notepad to program. I'd like to use a good [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > which is great for testing out snippets of Java code to see what it > does without the full compile - run cycle. Hi, thanks, I'm giving it a try. I got it running, but when I try to get plugins I get some connection error, so have gotten stopped. Still, looks good and I'll try to get help in their forums. If you just wanted a debugger and the ability to run code, what are the minimum plugins you'd recommend? Thanks much. > > My personal recommendation is to use jEdit (www.jedit.org), since it a > > superb text editor (leaving NetBeans and Eclipse far behind in as far [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > which is great for testing out snippets of Java code to see what it > > does without the full compile - run cycle. Oops, I should have said, I'm trying jEdit now. But, I need an IDE and it's just an editor. The plugins look like I can make an IDE out of it but I keep getting "error I/O can not connect" or something like that. Is there a quick fix? Also what minimum plugins will give me an IDE with debugger, compiler, and code editor, so I can step through code and look at data structure contents? Thanks.... Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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