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Java Forum / General / April 2006Eclipse or NetBeans ,SWT or Swing.
Hi, I write basically ERP/CRM applications . I´m choosing between Eclipse and Netbeans and Swing and SWT. It seems that none of them is as productive as Delphi environment. (I´m not saying that Delphi is more complete than Java,I´m not blind I only think that Creating a ERP application to be faster in Delphi than it seems to be in Java(first impressions from a beginner). Up to know (discarding JBuilder) it seems that the closest thing I can find to mimic a two way tool is ECLIPSE ans its visual editor. It seems that NETBEANS/MATISSE far away of being a two way tool.(I never used it ,just based in comments I have read here and there). I´m planning also to use SWING instead of SWT,since it seems its more portable and has less bugs specially on Linux. I´m wrong or I´ll have to write more than I´m used to do With Delphi? Marcello Marcello, An additional IDE for Java is Sun Java Studio. (at the moment free to members of the Sun Developers Network (developers.sun.com)). Have not used it yet, but the installation is quite large in size, so you need lots of disk space. In addition, you could consider Myeclipse (www.myeclipse.com), an inexpensive subscription service implementing extentions on top of Eclipse to facilitiate Java programming. Myeclipse has a good reputation. I moved over from Delphi/Kylix to Eclipse after Borland abandoned Delphi and the other excellent IDE products that it produced. My experience in moving over to Java is that that, yes, I write more lines of code to do the same thing than would have been the case with Delphi, but Java inherently has several advantages over Delphi. For instance layout managers is one of the things that I found difficult to master, but once this was achieved it enables an effective way to manage screen updates within a window, e.g. for resizing, that would take ages to do in Delphi/Kylix. Also, I found the natural TCP/IP interface as well as the SQL interface in Java much easier to use than would have been the case in Delphi. Added to the possibility of writing applets for capturing data from a web form, it unleashes quite a bit of power that was not possible under Delphi/Kylix. Eclipse has several things that Delphi/Kylix does not have. One of the important things is design-time syntactical and variable scope checking that reduces the design time significantly. Kind regards, Willem. I moved over from Delphi/Kylix to Eclipse after > Borland abandoned Delphi and the other excellent IDE products that it > produced. That what happens when you let marketing people take technical decisions. My experience in moving over to Java is that that, yes, I > write more lines of code to do the same thing than would have been the > case with Delphi, but Java inherently has several advantages over > Delphi. For instance layout managers is one of the things that I found > difficult to master, but once this was achieved it enables an effective > way to manage screen updates within a window, e.g. for resizing, that > would take ages to do in Delphi/Kylix. I never had problems in resizing windows in Delphi,I use a very old function that does that. Also, I found the natural TCP/IP > interface as well as the SQL interface in Java much easier to use than > would have been the case in Delphi. I believe. Added to the possibility of writing > applets for capturing data from a web form, it unleashes quite a bit of > power that was not possible under Delphi/Kylix. Eclipse has several > things that Delphi/Kylix does not have. One of the important things is > design-time syntactical and variable scope checking that reduces the > design time significantly. Kind regards, Willem. Thank you for the information,It is nice tho hear from peolple ,who have already made the move. In fact I´m not liking a lot of things In Java,I think the separation between DFM and Pas, the way Delphi declare and override things,much clear than in Java. Regards, Marcello >Up to know (discarding JBuilder) it seems that the closest thing >I can find to mimic a two way tool is ECLIPSE ans its visual editor. >It seems that NETBEANS/MATISSE far away of being a two way tool.(I >never used it ,just based in comments I have read here and there). If by "two way tool" you mean a GUI builder that can read Java code and convert that into a visual representation you won't find one. All of the GUI builders require extra information which, as far as I know, is always stored in a separate file. >>If by "two way tool" you mean a GUI builder that can read Java code >>and convert that into a visual representation you won't find one. All o>>f the GUI builders require extra information which, as far as I know, >>is always stored in a separate file. Yes exactly this,And there is any good reason why it can´t be implemented in Java. .NET have several GUIS like this:VISUAL STUDIO,delphi 2006 AND SO ON. Regards, Marcello >>>If by "two way tool" you mean a GUI builder that can read Java code >>>and convert that into a visual representation you won't find one. All [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >implemented in Java. >.NET have several GUIS like this:VISUAL STUDIO,delphi 2006 AND SO ON. I don't think so. You could probably hand code a .frm file in Visual Basic so that it would be editable in the IDE but you could not give any other Visual Studio language some foreign source code and expect it to be editable in the GUI builder. I don't know enough about Delphi to argue but I'm sure it would not be possible to give it a windowing Pascal program and expect to be able to use Delphi's GUI editor. I think that you have just bumped into the first obstacle encountered when moving to Java. With Delphi, the IDE and the language are inseparable; with Java you must choose your [I]DE. After some fruitless searching for the "right" IDE I solved this problem by deciding that I was not moving from Visual Basic to Java. I was moving from Visual Basic to NetBeans. I don´t plan to move from IDE very often. Up to know it seems to me a Java limitation,not a feature. JBUILDER probably do What I want,but its paid and probably will going to disapear very soon Before using Delphi I used Clip-4-win,a Program that generate windows like programs from source,using just a compiler and a linker. Of Course Delphi was ten times more productive,Its hard to believe that without a two way tool ,I´ll have the same results. In fact I´m choosing Java,because it runs on Linux and because its free. But If you have to buy a lot of Plugins ,its not free anymore. I think Java suffers from a pioners illness,It was a revolution,but having to threat with legacy codes,sometimes is really bad. I´m not saying these because I want to use .NET,I really don´t. But If SUN ,IBM and othes wants Java to beat .NET, they should know that the time spent do develop an application is the first point an enterprise look when choosing a language to develop.(Java or C#),at least in Brazil . SUN could make a kind of ROADMAP saying that in five years legacy code that does not comply with some rules will not be supported anymore in newer JVMS. This could make newer thing easier to implement. In fact I think the Delphi code to be more "navegable" and easy to understand at a first look. You know having to declare a method,using specific words to override a method. It seems that in Java ,you have to policy yourself more than you have to do with Delphi. I can trust in myself,but will have to policy more my co-workers. By the way,are you using SWT or Swing? Marcello >I don´t plan to move from IDE very often. >Up to know it seems to me a Java limitation,not a feature. I agree that Sun, in their haste to release Java, failed to specify a satisfactory windowing API let alone a satisfactory basis for a visual GUI developer. Java 1.5 has the beginnings of a general solution to this problem in the form of Annotations <http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/annotations.html> >JBUILDER probably do What I want,but its paid and probably will going >to disapear very soon It may be going to disappear but, as I posted in response to a previous post of yours, JBuilder Foundation Edition is free. >Of Course Delphi was ten times more productive,Its hard to believe that >without a two way tool ,I´ll have >the same results. All the IDEs I have listed at <http://profectus.com.au> are just as "two way" as Delphi. Like Delphi they use a set of files to define the project, form layout and procedures used in the application. The only difference is that there are seven of them that use Java as the underlying language instead of the single one, that you are accustomed to, that uses Pascal as the underlying application language. >In fact I´m choosing Java,because it runs on Linux and because its >free. >But If you have to buy a lot of Plugins ,its not free anymore. You don't have to buy anything. Try NetBeans, you probably won't need any plugins at all. >I think Java suffers from a pioners illness,It was a revolution,but >having to threat with legacy codes,sometimes is really bad. I agree but I found Microsoft's solution to this problem much worse. They decided to completely change the Visual Basic language to VB.NET and, in the process, make millions of lines of VB code obsolete. >But If SUN ,IBM and othes wants Java to beat .NET, they should know >that the time spent do develop an application is >the first point an enterprise look when choosing a language to >develop.(Java or C#),at least in Brazil . Microsoft have adopted the totally object oriented and virtual machine model used in Java. If you choose a modern IDE I doubt if there is any difference in development time. >SUN could make a kind of ROADMAP saying that in five years legacy code >that does not comply with some rules will >not be supported anymore in newer JVMS. >This could make newer thing easier to implement. That is exactly what they do! When the compiler tells you that your code is "deprecated" they are saying that you should change it to use a newer API. >In fact I think the Delphi code to be more "navegable" and easy to >understand at a first look. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >By the way,are you using SWT or Swing? Swing. I confess that when I decided to move from Visual Basic to Java I, more or less, decided to accept Sun as my new Guru instead of Microsoft. Sun said Swing so I swung. :) >>I agree that Sun, in their haste to release Java, failed to specify a >>satisfactory windowing API let alone a satisfactory basis for a visual >>GUI developer. Java 1.5 has the beginnings of a general solution to >>this problem in the form of Annotations >><http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/annotations.html> I would like people not to get me wrong.I´m just a Java beginner,In fact by what I´VE seen the last version of Java is really stronger than the older ones. SUN is not sleeping ,neither IBM and other big players. But software industry works like these,Invent something,wait for another company to improve it, copy it,invent more something.(Microsoft prefers the Copy it session :>}) >>It may be going to disappear but, as I posted in response to a >>previous post of yours, JBuilder Foundation Edition is free. I prefer to stay way from Borland,They didn´t decide If they´re a software producer,a marketing company, or if they want to sell pizza. >>All the IDEs I have listed at <http://profectus.com.au> are just as >>"two way" as Delphi. Like Delphi they use a set of files to define the >>project, form layout and procedures used in the application. The only >>difference is that there are seven of them that use Java as the >>underlying language instead of the single one, that you are accustomed >>to, that uses Pascal as the underlying application language. Nice to hear that. >>I agree but I found Microsoft's solution to this problem much worse. >>They decided to completely change the Visual Basic language to VB.NET >>and, in the process, make millions of lines of VB code obsolete. I agree 100% with you,fortunatelly I always keep myself away from microsoft. >>Microsoft have adopted the totally object oriented and virtual machine >>model used in Java. If you choose a modern IDE I doubt if there is any >>difference in development time. I hope you´re right,As I said before I prefer to start selling Hot dogs than becoming a Microsoft Nut. >>That is exactly what they do! When the compiler tells you that your >>code is "deprecated" they are saying that you should change it to use >>a newer API. Fine. >>Swing. I confess that when I decided to move from Visual Basic to Java >>I, more or less, decided to accept Sun as my new Guru instead of >>Microsoft. Sun said Swing so I swung. :) Swing in Brazil have a pornografic conotation (Why did they choose this name?) Marcello By the way. I don´t know Why am I caring so much about writing more code. My Superclasses usually do so many things,that I have to write really few lines of code in the other programs. So I´ll probably have to "write more" just while writing "my framework" Marcello Hi, I´ve just take a look at NETBEANS and MATISSE. I´m starting to think ,I found what I want to use for the next years. The last time i felt that was seven year ago(when I knew my wife :>} Marcello >Swing in Brazil have a pornografic conotation It does in Australia too! But, since you compared NetBeans to your wife elsewhere in this thread, perhaps you agree :) In fact it was a very unhappy comparison. I expect my wife to be with me for the next 50 years. I think no language will have such a feature. But the word SWING here in Brazil,means let somebody Be with your wife as you´re with his wife. Something I never think about and surely I will never do. Marcello One more reason that I´ll neve understand marketing guys. Can you image something like this? You father in law coming to your house and see you reading a book like these Master SWING with the biggest specialists in the world. He´ll probably have a heart atack and can blame SUN on this. Marcello > I don´t plan to move from IDE very often. > Up to know it seems to me a Java limitation,not a feature. > JBUILDER probably do What I want,but its paid and probably will going > to disapear very soon Ah, so that's why you don't use it. Well, I have to bring up JDeveloper again, then. It's free and not going anywhere soon ... except forward ... (Several other nice IDE's exist, ofcourse, JDeveloper just happens to be my favourite).  Signaturejon martin solaas >> Up to know (discarding JBuilder) it seems that the closest thing >> I can find to mimic a two way tool is ECLIPSE ans its visual editor. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of the GUI builders require extra information which, as far as I know, > is always stored in a separate file. Often those separate files are just java source, and as long as you don't mess to much with them you can actually edit manually and switch back and forth between source and design mode. Works for me (sometimes), at least ... > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I only think that Creating a ERP application to be faster in Delphi > than it seems to be in Java(first impressions from a beginner). You're probably right ... in a certain way Visual Basic is faster too ... I don't like the result, though ... > Up to know (discarding JBuilder) it seems that the closest thing > I can find to mimic a two way tool is ECLIPSE ans its visual editor. > It seems that NETBEANS/MATISSE far away of being a two way tool.(I > never used it ,just based in comments I have read here and there). Not really sure what you mean by two-way-tool, but try JDeveloper 10g R2. Along with the ADF components, including Swing support, it's pretty quick to whip up some forms from database tables. You should spend some time going through tutorials to get a basic grip, and everything will work smooth with Oracle DB ofcourse :-/ > I´m planning also to use SWING instead of SWT,since it seems its > more portable and has less bugs specially on Linux. With some JGoodies components having been integrated in JDeveloper 10g R2 making good looking forms has become really easy. JGoodies you can use with any other development environment that support Swing as well. > I´m wrong or I´ll have to write more than I´m used to do With > Delphi? The short answer is probably yes. Java isn't a 4gl, it's a general purpose language. But with the help of a good IDE, you'll save a lot of work. Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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