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Java Forum / General / April 2006What is joone?
hi, can any one give me a brief description on JOONE(Java Object Oriented Neural Engine)? Thanks in Advance.... > hi, > can any one give me a brief description on JOONE(Java Object Oriented > Neural Engine)? > Thanks in Advance.... STFW. STFW??? > STFW??? http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=STFW&Find=Find I still didnt get STFW and is tht related to JOONE??i dont think so ...i know joone is a neural engine ...i just need a brief description on joone...thts all >I still didnt get STFW and >is tht related to JOONE? what he is saying is Search the Freaking Web. In other words do a google search for JOONE before posting in a newsgroup.  SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > STFW??? He meant "Search the f***ing web !" In a more polite way: Open <http://www.google.com>, and search for "joone" Signature"Thomas:Fritsch$ops.de".replace(':', '.').replace('$', '@') ok ...thanks for your reply > STFW??? "Search The F&$#!%£ Web". This is a not uncommon reply when someone posts asking for info that could very easily be gleaned by going to www.google.com, typing in what they're interested in, and pressing 'search'. Although it's a sweary sort of reply, it isn't intended to cause offense; more just to indicate "This vague question really obviously begs a web search which will probably give you some good info. Why aren't you googling?" I have searched many sites ......still i didnt get a clear pic of it ...thts y i asked for a brief description abt it >I have searched many sites ......still i didnt get a clear pic of it >...thts y i asked for a brief description abt it You have to say that, and even better ask a specific question, even better multiple choice to avoid being told to go google. Joone is perhaps best known as a heterosexual porn director. At least you could have fun sifting through the Google entries. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. i asked to give a brief description Java Object Oriented Neural Engine....(JOONE)...oh god...i think i have specified it clearly in my first post...if no one knows it,then its ok.... >i asked to give a brief description Java Object Oriented Neural > Engine....(JOONE)...oh god...i think i have specified it clearly in my > first post...if no one knows it,then its ok.... I went to google and typed joone, never having heard of it. Here is the first site - the main page explains briefly what it is http://www.jooneworld.com/ I now know what it is, and it took me less than 3 minutes. -- LTP :) thnx for the reply ok thnx for tht info... >i asked to give a brief description Java Object Oriented Neural >Engine....(JOONE)...oh god...i think i have specified it clearly in my >first post...if no one knows it,then its ok... But there are many such descriptions. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/joone.html for links. There is likely something missing in your background that is causing you not to understand them. Perhaps you have never heard of neural nets. You might ask a question such as is JOONE the sort of tool you would use for authorisation of employees as they enter our secure research lab? Is JOONE the sort of tool I might use to let home aquarists diagnose tropical fish diseases? You might ask, "Has anyone used JOONE. Is it just for experimenting is it ready for production?" SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > I have searched many sites ......still i didnt get a clear pic of it > ...thts y i asked for a brief description abt it Firstly, if you want people to help you, at least look like you can be bothered typing all the letters that form your questions. Abbreviations like 'y', 'abt' are frankly irritating. Yes, I can guess what 'y' and 'abt' mean. But the more I'm thinking about how you can't be bothered to type the two measly letters - 'ou' - in the middle of 'about', the less I'm thinking about helping you. It's distracting. Secondly, I am not telepathic, and I suspect the other people here aren't either! So what do you mean by "a clear pic[ture] of it"? What sort of "brief description" do you want? You see, I just went to google and typed 'joone'. The first website that comes up says quite prominently: "Joone is a FREE Neural Network framework to create, train and test artificial neural networks. The aim is to create a powerful environment both for enthusiastic and professional users, based on the newest Java technologies. "Joone is composed by a central engine that is the fulcrum of all applications that are developed with Joone. Joone's neural networks can be built on a local machine, be trained on a distributed environment and run on whatever device. "Everyone can write new modules to implement new algorithms or new architectures starting from the simple components distributed with the core engine. The main idea is to create the basis to promote a zillion of AI applications that revolve around the core framework." ... and the second site that comes up says: "This is the official brainstorming area for the Joone Community. Joone is an Artificial Neural Networks framework written in Java licensed under the LGPL. It's composed by a Core Engine, a GUI Editor and a Distributed Training Environment and can be extended by writing new modules to implement new algorithms or architectures starting from base components." Both these sites have very obvious links to further in-depth information about Joone. What exactly are these sites not doing for you? I think these sites are doing admirably at providing a "brief description" and more besides. What is the problem? Are you expecting someone here to spoon feed you sample code that is already available on web sites? > I have searched many sites ......still i didnt get a clear pic of it > ...thts y i asked for a brief description abt it Sorry, I may be labouring the obvious here, but: you *do* know what google is, right? Do you know how to use it? Sorry, but *do* you know what Netiquette is? If, a person starts a new thread, which is either of little interest, irrelevant or obvious, then I suggest that you do not send a reply and leave it be. I am surprised by some of the comments in this page. People should not get so personal over something so trivial. There are people dying in the world you know. Either help or leave it be. No offence meant (honest). Rob >> I have searched many sites ......still i didnt get a clear pic of it >> ...thts y i asked for a brief description abt it > >Sorry, I may be labouring the obvious here, but: you *do* know what >google is, right? Do you know how to use it? ok i am sorry for the way i asked my doubts... Recently only i heard about google groups and joined .... I have seen many topics ,people asking their doubts ,never caring about how they should write,whether in a formal or informal way.... So i just copied their way .. Next time i wont repeat this ... And I am preparing to do my seminar in my college..and I selected this topic....it was suggested by my friend...My friend only gave me the idea to ask doubts here..... I was not familiar with neural networks and dont know what neural engine is....Anyways thanks to all who cared to reply... Sorry if I annoyed u.. Regards... > I was not familiar with neural networks >and dont know what neural engine is. You probably studied now networks of neurons worked in biology. Neural nets are the electronic analogy. They can of course switch much more quickly. You can also simulate them in software. Let's say you were training a neural net to recognise faces. You perturb the functions controlling the strengths of the interconnections of the "neurons". If it gets faces correct, you "reward" the net. It then strengthens the connections that just fired. If it gets it wrong, you "punish" it. The net then weaken the connections that just fired. In the brain, whether a neuron fires depends on the soup of neurotransmitters put into the synapse by other neurons. In an electronic net, you are simulating such logic with functions that may be based for example on the recent firing frequency of some other neuron. The interesting thing is the net can create it its own algorithm for face matching that no human has a clue how it works. It can then miraculously recognise new pictures of the faces in its learned set. This as an oversimplfication. You need to study up on neural nets before you get into the fine details of how you simulate one in Java. For what you are about to do, you probably want to go to the library and read a book on them. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > ok i am sorry for the way i asked my doubts... > Recently only i heard about google groups and joined .... > I have seen many topics ,people asking their doubts ,never caring about > how they should write,whether in a formal or informal way.... The style that people use on Usenet varies from group to group. Some groups will have a lot of informal txt style writing. In others, it's the norm to communicate using plain English. This is why newsgroup FAQs are so handy - they can answer questions about newsgroups you're interested in reading/posting to, before you post. So perhaps try the mini-FAQ at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/computer-lang/java/help/minifaq/ (and I suggest you follow the link from there to Jon Skeet's page on "How to get answers on the comp.lang.java.* newsgroups" - worth reading). > So i just copied their way .. > Next time i wont repeat this ... > And I am preparing to do my seminar in my college..and I selected this > topic....it was suggested by my friend...My friend only gave me the > idea to ask doubts here..... Asking questions is fine, but find out more about the best way to ask questions, and indeed what questions you should be asking! > I was not familiar with neural networks > and dont know what neural engine is.... Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Your original post doesn't say this - it just says that you want a brief description of Joone. So your problem really is that you don't understand neural networks/engines - so try and find out more about that! (Perhaps part of your misunderstand is that you thought that neural networks and engines are necessarily something to with Joone - they aren't - they're subjects and concepts in their own right, and Joone just happens to be one implementation/system that addresses these concepts.) > Anyways thanks to all who cared > to reply... > Sorry if I annoyed u.. You didn't particuarly annoy us, we just want to help you get better with getting help! > Regards... > ok i am sorry for the way i asked my doubts... > Recently only i heard about google groups and joined .... Ah, then welcome to Usenet, a networked system of discussion groups that has nothing in particular to do with Google or Google Groups, except that they are just one more node in the network. Usenet have existed since 1979, and in (mostly) its current form since 1986. There's a lot of history and a lot of accumulated practices and etiquettes that a newcomer will run into (and Google Groups does little to help there). > I have seen many topics ,people asking their doubts ,never caring about > how they should write,whether in a formal or informal way.... Google Groups carry both Usenet groups and their own, undistributed, groups. The latter is often created by a single person for his or her needs, and accepted behavior differs widely. On Usenet groups, there is also differing idea about how to write between groups, but there is one way, the most traditional, that's pretty sure not to get you into trouble. It's also the one recommended by the FAQ of this group: <URL:http://jibbering.com/faq/#FAQ2_3> It's generally recommended to read a group for "a while" (between a week and a month back) before posting yourself. It allows you to get a feel for the group and which questions are on-topic, and get a chance to find the FAQ and read it. There are no moderators or maintainers on Usenet (well, there are in moderated groups, but most groups are not moderated). If the participants of a group wants a particular posting style or tone or any other non-technically-enforcable behavior, they must police it themselves. That is why people react so (apparently) strongly to people not following this recommendation - it's what they (we) want people reading for a week or a month to get a feel for the group to see. Letting it slip is far too easy :) > So i just copied their way .. > Next time i wont repeat this ... Good. Remember, you are only one person writing, but there could be thousands of people reading it, so an extra minute spend making your post more readable is easily saved at the other end if each reader doesn't have to spend five extra seconds guessing what you mean. :) And if you still use Google Groups as your interface to newsgroups, I recommend reading this: <URL:http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/> Otherwise, I recommend using a real newsreader, like Agent, XNews or even Outlook/Outlook Expresss (but if using O/OE, read <URL:http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/> and <URL:http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/> on how to make them quote properly). > And I am preparing to do my seminar in my college..and I selected this > topic....it was suggested by my friend...My friend only gave me the > idea to ask doubts here..... I was not familiar with neural networks > and dont know what neural engine is.... Me neither. :) > Anyways thanks to all who cared to reply... > Sorry if I annoyed u.. Not badly. I do get somewhat annoyed by phonetic abbreviations (like "y" for "why" and "u" for "you" and "4" for "for"). I'm not a native English speaker, so it is an extra step for me to pronounce the letter in English and match it to the pronounciation of a word that fits into the sentence. Perhaps it is to native English speakers too, it's just a bigger step for me (and other non-native English speakers too, I'll wager). Capitalize, punctuate and spell it out, and a lot of us are much more likely to be willing to spend the time reading it (so, it's really for your own good :). /L SignatureLasse Reichstein Nielsen - lrn@hotpop.com DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html> 'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.' > <URL:http://jibbering.com/faq/#FAQ2_3> Ooops, sorry, wrong FAQ (but the recommendation in that one is good too). Here is something more local: <URL:http://www.yoda.arachsys.com/java/newsgroups.html> /L SignatureLasse Reichstein Nielsen - lrn@hotpop.com DHTML Death Colors: <URL:http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/rasterTriangleDOM.html> 'Faith without judgement merely degrades the spirit divine.' >If, a person starts a new thread, which is either of little interest, >irrelevant or obvious, then I suggest that you do not send a reply and leave >it be. That is the first time I have heard that suggested as netiquette. I think it would actually be a dangerous practice. You can see the result in newsgroups where people did not jitter at posters to maintain a certain standard of relevancy. They become like newsgroup slums and eventually the people who contribute move away. You can also go too far in the other direction, scaring people away with too much prissiness. Usually the problem is people jumping in posting without first reading any posts to get feel for the local customs of a newsgroup. This leads to some awkward moments before they get the hang of what is expected. The troll's purpose is disruption or irritating others to give them some drama. The best way to handle them is plonking since they know perfectly well what they are doing There is an amusing website with cartoons that characterises various net denizens. You can get at it via http://mindprod.com/jgloss/flame.html . SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > Either help or leave it be. Telling someone he should get his lazy arse up and first do his homework is helping him to become a better programmer. Also telling someone to write complete words and sentences is helping him to improve his communication style. And, it was the OP who started the rudeness. He insulted us by treating us like his search engine slaves and personal consultants. Even you couldn't be bothered to answer him. So what exactly is your problem? > There are people > dying in the world you know. Oh, and don't forget about the children! Would someone please think about the childen!? /Thomas SignatureThe comp.lang.java.gui FAQ: ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/computer-lang/java/gui/faq http://www.uni-giessen.de/faq/archiv/computer-lang.java.gui.faq/ >Also telling someone to >write complete words and sentences is helping him to improve his >communication style. Okay........ I will try to do better in future. >And, it was the OP who started the rudeness. He insulted us by treating >us like his search engine slaves and personal consultants. Even you >couldn't be bothered to answer him. So to answer him with rudeness is a more valid reason to send a message than to support him. I only entered the fray to offer a little support. You are only his consult if you answer him. >So what exactly is your problem? Well I have this irritation between my toes. I thought it was some athletes foot and I tried some.... Oh, sorry I thought we were talking about something else. >Oh, and don't forget about the children! Would someone please think >about the childen!? > >/Thomas Aaaa.... okay. My point was that people should not be so serious about this. An interesting point was made earlier by Roedy Green: >That is the first time I have heard that suggested as netiquette. I did mean just general etiquette, sorry. > I think it would actually be a dangerous practice. You can see the >result in newsgroups where people did not jitter at posters to >maintain a certain standard of relevancy. They become like newsgroup >slums and eventually the people who contribute move away. Good point. Is there no other ways of persuasion than pestering? Perhaps an extra 'Posting Rule'? hey guys, I never thought my doubt will create these kinds of responses...well, i got my answer and I was not treating you people as slaves or something like that.....Sorry if I asked my doubt in a rude way... Regards.. > hey guys, > I never thought my doubt will create these kinds of responses...well, i > got my answer and I was not treating you people as slaves or something > like that.....Sorry if I asked my doubt in a rude way... > > Regards.. You're fine - the responses in this thread are typical. We don't have a problem with you - it's people that keep doing stuff that we ask them not to that bother use :) -- LTP :) >Good point. Is there no other ways of persuasion than pestering? Perhaps an >extra 'Posting Rule'? I usually point somebody to http://mindprod.com/jgloss/newsgroups.html when they are new and I see them heading for hot water. If they take the hint they will stay out of trouble. If they take this as an affront, usually they get themselves in a dogfight with several people. I have speculated that since this is an international group, there are people here who have servants. They tend to relate to others on the newsgroup as if they were paid servants who could be ordered about. Perhaps they imagine fellow posters are Google employees. Perhaps they are accustomed to deferential treatment due them by wealth or birth. This REALLY gets the backs up of the North Americans. Those are the disputes where the fur flies. There is a fierce belief in essential equality. If there is any special status, it has to be earned through unusual knowledge or cleverness at problem solving. It does not come from wealth or social standing outside the newsgroup. I don't think there is much hope of asking North Americans not to snarl when treated as servants. The people here who contribute most love Java and love teaching others about it. They have spent thousands of hours studying themselves and working on problems. It is a slap across the face when someone says words to the effect" "I have no interest in Java. I have just have to pass the course. I want to do it by faking and without effort. You HAVE to help me do this". The natural reaction is to slap the twit silly. I often point them to http://mindprod.com/jgloss/homework.html which both argues why this is not a wise thing to do and what you can do to solve a tough homework problem. Why should anyone help you do something so self-destructive? And why would they be OBLIGATED to do something so counter to their own values? Who the hell are you that others are obligated to do your learning for you? SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. >>Good point. Is there no other ways of persuasion than pestering? Perhaps an >>extra 'Posting Rule'? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >affront, usually they get themselves in a dogfight with several >people. I guess not a good idea if they are new to this. However I think the mindprod article is asking for trouble when it states: "If you insist on playing helpless, use a female signature, something that subliminally suggests youth, incompetence and sexual availability, e.g. Brandi, Sherri, Rykkii or Beertha de Bourbon. There are still suckers for that lame dodge." I actually know some women I work with that would go stark raving bonkers at this statement. >I have speculated that since this is an international group, there are >people here who have servants. They tend to relate to others on the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >unusual knowledge or cleverness at problem solving. It does not come >from wealth or social standing outside the newsgroup. You cannot just assume people will know this winds North Americans up. It needs to be put in ‘black and white’, more prominently than buried within 'Netiquette Guidelines' on a web site. >I don't think there is much hope of asking North Americans not to >snarl when treated as servants. I understand the anger. But, like you have said previously it needs to be tempered and not so severe that it puts people off. >The people here who contribute most love Java and love teaching others >about it. They have spent thousands of hours studying themselves and >working on problems. It is a slap across the face when someone says >words to the effect" "I have no interest in Java. I have just have to >pass the course. I want to do it by faking and without effort. You >HAVE to help me do this". People getting angry will not stop this. >The natural reaction is to slap the twit silly. I often point them to >http://mindprod.com/jgloss/homework.html which both argues why this is >not a wise thing to do and what you can do to solve a tough homework >problem. A mature and constructive opinion. It is a pity others are not as constructive. >Why should anyone help you do something so self-destructive? And why >would they be OBLIGATED to do something so counter to their own >values? Who the hell are you that others are obligated to do your >learning for you? At the risk of repeating myself, there must be a better way of handling this. If someone is deliberately being lazy, cheating or otherwise. Would it not be better to introduce some way of binning the thread. E.g.: if X number of users vote the thread as irrelevant or inappropriate. You have asked in other postings if I am new. I am not so much new more inexperienced at posting. I tend to read what others have written. I know I stirred a bit of a hornets nest here. But it was the first time I saw what appeared to be a little unfair treatment of a new user. I don't think I would had so much of a reaction if I had not used the word 'Netiquette' Thank you for your input and an apology to Alex I was a bit 'harsh' at first. As the Vorlon says 'Understanding is a 3 edged sword'. Rob >You cannot just assume people will know this winds North Americans up. It >needs to be put in black and white, more prominently than buried within >'Netiquette Guidelines' on a web site. It is stated there, in slightly different words. "Posts of the form "I asked this question a hour ago and I still have not got an answer. This newsgroup sucks." are more likely to get you put in killfiles than to spur an answer. Get it into your head. You are not entitled to an answer no matter how badly you may need it. If you receive one, it is because some stranger decided to give you a gift of his or her time. Everyone who answers questions is giving you a gift that would you have to pay perhaps $25US for from a subscription help desk. If you act like some precious little prince ordering his servants about, you will soon find your questions ignored." SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. >Everyone who answers questions is giving you a gift that would >you have to pay perhaps $25US for from a subscription help >desk. Psychologically, those giving answers must get back something of about the same value, otherwise it just would not work, they just would not do it. When you work at a helpdesk, the customer chooses the time and contents of his question and you have to give some answer. Here, in the groups, you can choose which posts you answer and when and which posts you ignore. Here you have the publicity for your answers, at a helpdesk even the most ingenious answer might be viewed by your customer only. So, on one hand he has no entitlement to expect any answer whatsoever in this group. On the other hand, if he gets an answer, he does not have to show gratefulness to the equivalent of USD 25. >>You cannot just assume people will know this winds North Americans up. It >>needs to be put in black and white, more prominently than buried within >>'Netiquette Guidelines' on a web site. > >It is stated there, in slightly different words. I know, my point was: it is buried. >Get it into your head. You are not entitled to an answer no matter how badly you >may need it. I am not saying that I must or deserve an answer. I neither want to treat anyone like a servant > If you act like some precious little prince >ordering his servants about, you will soon find your questions >ignored." That's a little harsh. I actually have not ordered or even asked anyone to do anything. I just indulged in a conceptual discussion. If you are being frustrated by this, I apologise and will stop it now. All I am doing now is exploring the point. I know this is a Java site this has just become interesting. This is not about 'getting it into my head' it is about approaching the subject from other angles. I do this with programming and any other element of life. My intent is not to irritate anyone I have just found that even the simplest of subjects have other avenues to explore. Stefan has produced another opinion and this is all I am looking for. Thank you for your comments. Rob. > >Get it into your head. You are not entitled to an answer no matter how badly you >may need it. > I am not saying that I must or deserve an answer. I neither want to treat > anyone like a servant Rob, I think you misunderstood. Roedy was quoting from the article, not directing those comments at you. Signaturewww.designacourse.com The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere. Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer MindIQ Corporation > You cannot just assume people will know this winds North Americans up. It > needs to be put in ‘black and white’, more prominently than buried within > 'Netiquette Guidelines' on a web site. What do you suggest we do, instead of posting netiquette guidelines on a web site? [...] > At the risk of repeating myself, there must be a better way of handling > this. > If someone is deliberately being lazy, cheating or otherwise. Would it not > be > better to introduce some way of binning the thread. E.g.: if X number of > users vote the thread as irrelevant or inappropriate. Well, you could write a RFC describing this new feature to the USENET protocol, and see how many news servers implement it. But realistically speaking, I bet none of them will, and the idea won't work. So, that leaves you with two options: (1) Write up the RFC and publish it, and if you need someone to "vote" for it, let me know, and I'll take a look at it. (2) Come up with another solution. (2a) Maybe the "other solution" is to just be satisfied with the way things are now. That is, lazy/cheating/whatever people will come to the newsgroups, and people will yell at them and get angry, and there isn't anything you can really do to stop it. - Oliver ... > Well, you could write a RFC describing this new feature to the USENET > protocol, and see how many news servers implement it. But realistically [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > - Oliver How about: (2b) Provide comments that someone who is trying to do their own programming can use. If a poster hints that they would like a canned solution, don't get the hint. Don't yell, don't get angry. Stick to assuming, no matter what they say, that they are neither lazy nor cheating, and act accordingly. I like this approach because it relieves posters of any need to judge whether a question is an attempt to cheat or not. If the person asking the question really is trying to do their own work, but just phrased a question badly, they get the help they want. If they are trying to cheat, they get lots of information that is useless to them. Patricia > I like this approach because it relieves posters of any need to judge > whether a question is an attempt to cheat or not. [...] If they are > trying to cheat, they get lots of information that is useless to them. Which does rather mean that you've wasted your own time. The usual tension between generosity and scepticism... (And it also depends on your guessing correctly about whether the questioner /ought/ be asking for hints only -- if a working programmer looking for, say, a Skip List package, was referred only to the original paper (very readable, btw), and given a couple of implementation hints, then they would be justifiably disappointed.) -- chris > > I like this approach because it relieves posters of any need to judge > > whether a question is an attempt to cheat or not. [...] If they are > > trying to cheat, they get lots of information that is useless to them. > > Which does rather mean that you've wasted your own time. The usual tension > between generosity and scepticism... Yes and no - even if the original poster is a cheater type, a good question might apply to others as well. > (And it also depends on your guessing correctly about whether the questioner > /ought/ be asking for hints only -- if a working programmer looking for, say, > a > Skip List package, was referred only to the original paper (very readable, > btw), and given a couple of implementation hints, then they would be > justifiably disappointed.) Also true, but if they are such, they will come back to the well if they get good, but insufficient, information. Scott SignatureScott Ellsworth scott@alodar.nospam.com Java and database consulting for the life sciences > Sorry, but *do* you know what Netiquette is? Yes, only too well. > If, a person starts a new thread, which is either of little interest, > irrelevant or obvious, then I suggest that you do not send a reply and leave > it be. If a person appears to have a problem either with knowing to (or how to) use a search engine, or a problem with making it clear what their original problem is, addressing this is always on topic. Likewise, netiquette is always on-topic. I may not be directly helping the guy by spoon feeding him whatever it is that he wants to know (which is hard to tell from his vague question), but I am ultimately helping him in other ways (see below). And also, other people may be reading who may get something from this exchange. Usenet is never just about the original poster and the replier - others can benefit too. Here's a little story to illustrate matters: You're walking out in the sticks and you find a guy at his farm who tells you that he is running out of food (although he doesn't even seem to be making much of an effort to communicate clearly - he mumbles a bit, but you realise that this is lazyness rather than the effects of ill health etc., and forget about it, despite it being distracting). Luckily, you have a few things with you. You have a sack with some food in it, and you also have a hoe and a few other farming tools with you, going spare. So which do you give him? Options: A) you give him the food, helping him to put off starvation a little longer. What then? He has to wait for another well wisher to come along and leave him some food. His survival this way is looking tenuous, and he is relying on the good will of others who may or may not even turn up. B) you give him the farming tools and maybe some advice on how to use them. This empowers him - he becomes master of providing his own food. He becomes more independent. Not only are other people in the world putting less of their into food him, but one day he might even have a good farm, and feed other people! Do you propose the A) option for the original poster? Do you not think B) is ultimately for the best? If we can teach him something about asking a clearer question, or about how to find the answer to the question for himself, everyone wins. He wins, because he is empowered to help himself; and the newsgroup wins, because there will be less vague/obviously web searchable questions kicking about (from him, and perhaps from other readers who got something from the exchange). > I am surprised by some of the comments in this page. I'm not. > People should not get so personal over something so trivial. There are people > dying in the world you know. Usenet can seem harsh sometimes. But this isn't personal. I am trying to help this guy. It's constructive criticism. Are you fairly new to usenet, btw? Veterans of usenet tend to seem abrupt sometimes. It's not usually any intended rudeness, just the way of things. > Either help or leave it be. We *were* helping, as detailed above. > No offence meant (honest). > > Rob None taken! I hope that you can see that some people do have some interest in helping this guy, even if it's not the help he (or you) envisaged... > Sorry, but *do* you know what Netiquette is? > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > No offence meant (honest). I don't want to hear about Netiquette from someone who doesn't know how to properly bottom post -- LTP :) Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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