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Java Forum / General / February 2006a question relating to job application
Dear All, I don't have any industry java programming experiences. I only have java programming exprience at school. I want to apply for java developer jobs. I donnot have any knowledge of EJB, Struts, JBoss etc. Can I gain these knowledge by reading books so I can match those java job requirements? I am a quick learner. I graduated with a PhD in biology and switched to computer science. Many thanks. >Dear All, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Many thanks. Sure, you can pick them up on your own. It's not a substitute for on the job experience but potential employers will like that you are interested enough to learn on your own. By the way, these are marketable skills. Eric > I do not have any knowledge of EJB, Struts, JBoss etc. Can I gain > these knowledge by reading books so I can match those java job > requirements? Maybe, but there is a LOT to know, just in that short list -- in fact, it's bigger than learning the Java language. On the other hand, those of us who learned these technologies as they were developing, learned them from books, trial-and-error, etc. I suggest you install JBoss, and read Monson-Haefel's book and work through his examples. EJB isn't really hard to learn, but it does introduce some interesting constraints and must be approached a certain way. As for Struts (and Shale, and Spring), those things become easier to digest after you've encountered the problems that they seek to address, or when you are already designing in the same "framework space" where these things live. Struts in particular, is really easy to work with once you start using taglibs. JBoss is a monster, but it's good. Better than certain very expensive products it competes with. Well worth digging into and learning, if you're going to be doing the kind of business software where it's used. May I also suggest getting the Hibernate jars and a copy of MySQL, and teaching yourself all about idiomatic data access? If you came into my shop able to demonstrate competence, where you could deploy an EJB, a Servlet, a JSP page that calls a custom Taglib, describe an understanding of a few design patterns like MVC, configure a database pool under JBoss, map a Hibernate descriptor to an object and a table, and make JUnit insert, update, retreive, and remove that persistent object, we would have no more technical questions for you. If you can do all that, nobody cares if you learned it from a book. That's where everyone else learned it, maybe with the occasional day-long course here and there. This is a lot of stuff to learn though. You should learn it because you want to know it, not because you want to match your buzzwords to a job description. We'd see right through that. J2EE is worth knowing, and there's enough going on that you can expect to never know it all. Thank you very much. I am curious, are all these technologies best to be run on Linux platform? (I use linux, not Microsoft windows). > Maybe, but there is a LOT to know, just in that short list -- in fact, > it's bigger than learning the Java language. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > description. We'd see right through that. J2EE is worth knowing, and > there's enough going on that you can expect to never know it all. > Thank you very much. I am curious, are all these technologies best to > be run on Linux platform? (I use linux, not Microsoft windows). Of course! One of the big deals with all of this stuff is the platform-independence. "If you came into my shop able to demonstrate competence, where you could deploy an EJB, a Servlet, a JSP page that calls a custom Taglib, describe an understanding of a few design patterns like MVC, configure a database pool under JBoss, map a Hibernate descriptor to an object and a table, and make JUnit insert, update, retreive, and remove that persistent object, we would have no more technical questions for you. If you can do all that, nobody cares if you learned it from a book. That's where everyone else learned it, maybe with the occasional day-long course here and there. " James, I am putting together an article on the best practices of hiring manager and this is such a helpful piece of information! Would I be correct in assuming as you said "nobody cares if you learned it from a book" meaning you would hire recent grads as long as they could fit those technical parameters? Just curious, if I were to prescreen for these qualities prior to sending you a candidate (if you were a manager I was working with), then you would appreciate that?? Of course, my next question would be, in what way would you want me to prescreen for those qualities? Clearly you are an exceptional manager that would hire talent, and brains:-) and be willing to help someone acclimate to corporate culture. Maryellen O > Would I be > correct in assuming as you said "nobody cares if you learned it from a > book" meaning you would hire recent grads as long as they could fit > those technical parameters? I prefer experience to education. "Recent grads" tend to have 3 semesters of Calculus, a year of Physics, two or three courses in Discrete Math and Algorithm proofs, and maybe a sum total of several months of actual programming experience. I am much more interested in someone who has been programming in a production environment for ten hours a day over the last five to seven years. Much of the time, that person also has a CS degree, and most of the time almost nothing of that education is really useful. >Clearly you are an exceptional manager that would hire >talent, and brains:-) and be willing to help someone acclimate to >corporate culture. I'm not a manager, I'm a business software architect. But I am a gatekeeper with go/no-go authority on new hires. It's a small department in a big company, quarterly project cycles with 8 developers, and direct P&L responsibilities for our products (that means we get our own budget and our own headcount, and we sink or swim on the choices we make.) James, Thank you for your feedback. Not only did you help me to understand the process of screening for programmers and recent grads or not, but of the hiring processes in your specific group. Quarterly project cycles looks like you all are working hard; far more rigerous that annual!! Thank goodness you have 8 good developers, I can see why it is so important to have extremely good processes in your hiring. Curious, how many phone screens before you bring them in and white board them? If I am imposing, please let me know, I will stop asking:-) This is great information for my article! I can/will quote you, only if you are open to that. Otherwise, the information gathering is wonderful. Maryellen > James, > Thank you for your feedback. Not only did you help me to understand the > process of screening for programmers and recent grads or not, but of > the hiring processes in your specific group. Quarterly project cycles > looks like you all are working hard; far more rigerous that annual!! Yes! What's new to us is the P&L. Our departments now operate like small businesses, instead of like tightly integrated pieces of a large corporate monolith. This is a big deal to us, because it puts us in a position of real authority, we get to take risks, and keep rewards. I know this scenario is uncommon, but the nature of our product makes it possible. > Thank goodness you have 8 good developers, I can see why it is so > important to have extremely good processes in your hiring. Some of us have worked together for more than five years, and a couple for less than a year. > Curious, how many phone screens before you bring them in and white > board them? Our recruiters screen, and I don't know how many they send to us. We try to keep them clear as to the meaning and significance of our requirements, and we don't expect them to do too much technical evaluation. Occasionally we will get someone on the team from a referral, and, about once a year, we hire an intern from a local university. This year, our intern is totally dedicated to Quality Control. (This is part of our organization becoming more directly responsible for our product.) We've had as many as "dozens" of conference calls, and only four or five face-to-face interviews, for senior staff. Most people who get to that point are well-qualified, and the selection process has been difficult. We're not the highest-paying opportunity, so that has helped narrow down the field on a number of occasions. The last time we had an open rec for a position that wasn't "senior" was long enough ago, that the person we hired had developed enough experience to be promoted twice :-) When we do hire someone, they tend to stay, and we've learned to recognize what we're looking for aside from technical merit and experience. > If I am imposing, please let me know, I will stop asking:-) > This is great information for my article! I can/will quote you, only if > you are open to that. Otherwise, the information gathering is I don't want to disclose who I work for: Many people on the newsgroups already know that, but it's not something I like to broadcast. Aside from that, I wear my personality on my shirt sleeve and I'm accustomed to being quoted. I don't think I've disclosed anything confidential, but at the same time, I certainly do not want my comments to be construed as representing my employer. James > I don't have any industry java programming experiences. I only have java > programming exprience at school. I want to apply for java developer [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I am a quick learner. I graduated with a PhD in biology and switched to > computer science. You'll need some experience. One good way to get some is to contribute to open-source projects. > You'll need some experience. One good way to get some is to contribute > to open-source projects. Lots and lots of experience and reading is a prerequisite to creating complex and quality programs. However neither education nor experience is necessary to get programming jobs. The programming field is unlike professions, were for example if you want to be a buildings engineer there is standard accreditation, or if you want to be a lawyer there is a bar exam. It is true that large companies' IT and R&D departments have rigorous interviews for programmers, but there are plenty of jobs where you can progarm without experience or eduction: 1) large company's business side (plenty of excel macros&VB) 2) a very small company that doesn't have many hiring options 3) you can apply to be a manager in the R&D or IT department of a large company Opalinski opalpa@gmail.com http://www.geocities.com/opalpaweb/ > You'll need some experience. One good way to get some is to > contribute > to open-source projects. What kinds of open source projects use J2EE stuff, other than the infrastructure projects themselves? >>You'll need some experience. One good way to get some is to >>contribute >>to open-source projects. > > What kinds of open source projects use J2EE stuff, other than the > infrastructure projects themselves? http://www.jboss.org/developers/join http://rollerweblogger.org/page/project http://java-source.net/ http://jonas.objectweb.org/ >I am a quick learner. I graduated with a PhD in biology and switched to >computer science. see http://mindprod.com/projects/projects.html and tackle a project using these advanced technologies even if they don't really merit it. You will then have practical experience and something to show to prove you have.  SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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