i want discipline in my framework!!!

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Elhanan - 26 Jan 2006 19:10 GMT

hi..

i'm an asp , vb6 programmer, i used asp.net in an application and now
i'm moving to java, becouse i saw something in it that dotnet doesn't
have, structure, with the web framework in hand, i don't have to think
where to place all my code, how design from the ground up, the
framework can lead me in but not force me, i like stucture, structure
is good :)

when ever i choose a tool, the first thing i think about is not what is
best, but what is most commonly used, becouse that is likely to have
the greasts support, tool, and material, so i was told struts is like
that 'de-facto-standard', i saw the struts tutorial at
http://courses.coreservlets.com/Course-Materials/struts.html and it was
rather good, i thought i almost solved all my problems (aside from
field level validators like asp.net has, shame, but still you do need
sepration right?)

but then i saw this:
http://www.manageability.org/blog/stuff/official-struts-demise/view

struts bashing ???
or am i just moving a 'dead tool'?
will shale be backword comptabile to struts?

now i'm thinking to take a look at tapestry, but i'm unsure of how it's
widely used, or even easy to use, i'm using eclipse and the only thing
i saw for it was something called spindle (for struts i saw several,
and exadel looks nice).

what do you think?

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javabuddha@gmail.com - 26 Jan 2006 20:24 GMT

Hello,

I think you are correct in that:

- Struts is still the most commonly used Java web application framework
out there because it was the first widely adapted MVC framework.

- Struts Shale is not going to be backward compatible to Struts Action
because it's based on JSF which is a component based rather than
request/action based like Struts Action.

However, according to the WebWork folks, their WebWork 2.2 is going
to be folded into Struts Action 2.0 so maybe somebody changed their
minds:

http://www.opensymphony.com/webwork/

I have been using Struts Action for more than 6 years in various
projects,
and it definitely has its limitations. I would like to move on to
something else, but I want to wait for something that will be around
for
a while and that is considerably better. Just haven't had the push to
start looking.

Besides WebWork, You might also want to look into the MVC framework
from Spring since they have been gaining popularity recently.

Good luck,

Matt
www.suckingfish.com

> hi..
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> what do you think?

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Elhanan - 26 Jan 2006 21:56 GMT

i saw the comments there, some are against, some are for it, in the
link i copied there is a another link to a poll published showing
tapestry leads.

a while back i read a book on ejb becouse that was a standard, after
finishing i understood ejb is not for me , couse it was so huge and
moduled, is that struts like that?, i like standards and support, but i
also like something i can use on my own and not be joined by a team.

what is struts action 2.0? isn't that shale? i thought there woudn't be
a struts 2.0

Reply to this Message

javabuddha@gmail.com - 26 Jan 2006 23:12 GMT

For some of the more common projects, EJB is really an overkill. I
prefer
Hibernate as the data access framework. As for Struts, there are many
components, but still very light weight. The core struts.jar is only
about 600 KB. It's easy to use once you get the handle on it,
but it doesn't have as good of form support as ASP.NET.

The link I posted mentioned that they will merge WebWork into Struts
Action 2.0 (which is different from Struts Shale). I don't work for
either team, so I don't really know, but if you go to this link:

http://blogs.opensymphony.com/webwork/2006/01/webwork_22_released_and_ready.html

And read some of the comments, they claim Struts Action 2.0 will come
out in about 6 months or so (given it's open source, should add
some buffer to that estimate). I know they said there wouldn't be a
2.0,
but that was over a year ago, maybe things changed.

If you want to read more about the struts history and roadmap, try this
link:

http://opensource2.atlassian.com/confluence/oss/display/STRUTS/Struts+2006

By the way, if you are new to the Java application world and trying to
build
a web app using open source tools, then you might want to start from:

http://www.suckingfish.com/view.do?crumb_id=csid_1033

Good luck,

Matt

> i saw the comments there, some are against, some are for it, in the
> link i copied there is a another link to a poll published showing
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> what is struts action 2.0? isn't that shale? i thought there woudn't be
> a struts 2.0

Reply to this Message

James - 27 Jan 2006 01:45 GMT

Elhanan,

I think it is important for you to not confuse popularity with good or
right.

suckingfish has some excellent stuff and it is worth a look into.

I would also like to suggest looking at the MOAT approach and
framework. It not really ready for your WEB needs
today, but it can be used in other areas and yes it will eventually
support web and portal apps.

Rgs, James.
http://www.jamesladdcode.com/moat

Reply to this Message

Chris Smith - 27 Jan 2006 05:30 GMT

> I think it is important for you to not confuse popularity with good or
> right.
>
> suckingfish has some excellent stuff and it is worth a look into.

I can't find any mention of anything called "suckingfish" that has
anything to do with web applications. Care to be more specific?

> I would also like to suggest looking at the MOAT approach and
> framework. It not really ready for your WEB needs
> today, but it can be used in other areas and yes it will eventually
> support web and portal apps.

All very well, but what does it do?

I had a brief look, and it appears to include a few interfaces. It also
contained a REALLY basic implementation of some kind of class lookup
scheme for the system class loader, based on an ad hoc naming convention
that isn't documented anywhere that I see.

The web site makes some claims that MOAT somehow is involved in a few
good design techniques such as design-by-interface... Of course,
design-by-interface can be done just fine without a third-party product.
The site also says something about "fortifying" objects against "change
impact", and I'm sure a marketing department would be proud, but I'm
still lost.

So: what does it do?

Signature

www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

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javabuddha@gmail.com - 27 Jan 2006 05:50 GMT

I believe he was referring to my previous post which has a link to
a list of open source tools for building web apps:

http://www.suckingfish.com/view.do?crumb_id=csid_1033

It was meant to be a starting point for people who are new to the
field.

Matt

> > I think it is important for you to not confuse popularity with good or
> > right.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I can't find any mention of anything called "suckingfish" that has
> anything to do with web applications. Care to be more specific?

Reply to this Message

i want discipline in my framework!!!

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