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Java Forum / General / January 2006Java Source For Asymmetric Key Ciphers
Hi - I'm looking for HFE and NTRU java source code. I don't want to pay for these libraries, because I'm not going to make a product with them, I only want to read through the algorithms and "play" with them. I have trouble understanding the algorithm by reading a pper, and have a better chance of understanding if reading code. Are they available anywhere for free?  SignatureLTP :) > Hi - I'm looking for HFE and NTRU java source code. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Are they available anywhere for free? http://java.sun.com/developer/JDCTechTips/2004/tt0116.html SignatureThanks in Advance... IchBin, Pocono Lake, Pa, USA http://weconsultants.servebeer.com/JHackerAppManager __________________________________________________________________________ 'If there is one, Knowledge is the "Fountain of Youth"' -William E. Taylor, Regular Guy (1952-) >> Hi - I'm looking for HFE and NTRU java source code. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://java.sun.com/developer/JDCTechTips/2004/tt0116.html :) I probably should use RSA if I have no real need to keep the data secure. -- LTP :) >Hi - I'm looking for HFE and NTRU java source code. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Are they available anywhere for free? anywhere...don't know but had fun searching NTRU java http://bass.gmu.edu/courses/ECE543/project/reports_2001/dsouza.pdf http://bass.gmu.edu/courses/ECE543/project/specs-F01/DsouzaThomson.PDF Apparently NTRU code was not available 2001 so they/ Rodney wrote an own implementation Now, where is Rodney... and his code :) Ok Quick googliing find out what is true... Possible address 1/2005 rodney.dsouza AT THE gmail.com News posts IP (202.163.119.98) says he posted to Google group Windows XP on 1/2005 from Pakistan Lahore, Punjab http://groups.google.fi/group/helpwinxp/msg/9664c6184ae15a56?dmode=source&hl=fi <OT> In that case the DNS tracer is not mistaking...Hopefully he managed to avoid being killed in those latest made by USA conducted war-crimes. (I refer to bombing of a Pakistani village which left 18 civilians death for no reason. It is interesting to notice that countries are allowed to try to use large bombs in other countries in order to try to catch criminals. Let's see that policy allows Russians to launch cruise missiles to London suburbs in order to 'get' Chechen politicians/terrorists. In addition that policy would suggest it is ok for the China to try place a car bomb on a street within the USA, in order the get their criminals e.g. Falun gong founder, damn Chinese always trying to kill my religious leaders :) </OT> Right address was in 2001 rodney_dsouza@extrahotmail.com (Remove extra-adjective) Probably would not hurt to try also Active 2001 ->? dsouza AND rodney_dsouza AND rodney.dsouza AT THE veridian.com In desperation Who knows maybe still dsouza AT THE mrj.com WORKS mars 2005 lists Rodney D'Souza as mechanical coordinator at Arabian Construction Co's service in Qatar but that is propably a not the NTRU Rodney, or has managed to abandon computers ?:) Consider whether to ask if Rodney can make the code publicly available (public domain). Was fun...sorry no time for better un-intelligence Juuso Hukkanen (to reply by e-mail set addresses month and year to correct) >>Hi - I'm looking for HFE and NTRU java source code. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > anywhere...don't know but had fun searching Don't take this the wrong way - but that seems like a lot of work - and I don't even know who this guy is. My current quest is to find a song "Pallas Athena" by Jay Bolton from a 1996 movie which never released its sound track. I am calling the musicians guild (or something) tommorrow and have a few studio phone numbers . . . Only one quest at a time please! I'm beginning to think the man and the song don't exist - they are just myths. -- LTP :) > My current quest is to find a song "Pallas Athena" by Jay Bolton from a 1996 > movie which never released its sound track. I am calling the musicians > guild (or something) tommorrow and have a few studio phone numbers . . . > Only one quest at a time please! I'm beginning to think the man and the > song don't exist - they are just myths. > :) http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0093407/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118904/fullcredits http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/macon_county_jail/dvd.php >> My current quest is to find a song "Pallas Athena" by Jay Bolton from a >> 1996 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/macon_county_jail/dvd.php Ah some familiar URLs! One of the first things I did was sign up for a pro trial account of imdb ;) That is how I got the name of the composer and the number to the studio. Thanks for trying though. Call me strange for not wanting to watch a girl get raped every time I want to hear the song - it just distracts somehow, but as thus far this has been my only experience with it, perhaps I should be thankful. **lunacy emerging . . . ** MUST HAVE SONG!!!! AGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH I didn't mean to get so sidetracked though - we're we talking about asymmetric ciphers? -- LTP :) > Call me strange for not wanting to watch a girl get raped every time I want > to hear the song - it just distracts somehow, but as thus far this has been > my only experience with it, perhaps I should be thankful. **lunacy > emerging . . . ** MUST HAVE SONG!!!! AGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH I think the idea is get the DVD and upload the audio of the song to your vorbis player or whatever. > I didn't mean to get so sidetracked though - we're we talking about > asymmetric ciphers? Ehh. You may find the tutorials on the NTRU website helpful -- http://www.ntru.com/cryptolab is the place to start. Note that we encourage people to develop and play with the algorithms themselves, but you may not distribute your implementation without a license from NTRU. ================================ William Whyte, CTO, NTRU Cryptosystems > You may find the tutorials on the NTRU website helpful -- > http://www.ntru.com/cryptolab is the place to start. > > Note that we encourage people to develop and play with the algorithms > themselves, but you may not distribute your implementation without a > license from NTRU. With that final note how many people use NTRU versus says RSA-PKCS or ECC-X9.6X? :-) Patents may make business sense but all they do is take a possibly valid technology and make it moot. By time NTRU is available for the public domain it'll be 2015 or so. At which point "smart cards" will be ARM platforms [or other 32-bit platform] and ECC with prime curves will be more than just fine in software, etc... Tom > By time NTRU is available for the public domain it'll be 2015 or so. > At which point "smart cards" will be ARM platforms [or other 32-bit > platform] and ECC with prime curves will be more than just fine in > software, etc... Nah, smart cards will never be more powerful than they need to be. In 2015 there might be 32-bit smart cards that cost the same 2 or 3 dollars that today's 8-bit smart cards cost, but there will also be 8-bit cards like today's, except they will cost 10 cents instead of 2 or 3 dollars. If you're shipping millions (maybe even billions) of cards, a public key algorithm that can run on a 10 cent card instead of needing a 2 or 3 dollar card is extremely worthwhile. > > By time NTRU is available for the public domain it'll be 2015 or so. > > At which point "smart cards" will be ARM platforms [or other 32-bit [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > cards, a public key algorithm that can run on a 10 cent card instead > of needing a 2 or 3 dollar card is extremely worthwhile. Provided they're still making them. It may cost 3 cents to make an 8051 but if nobody will license/and/or/use them ... what's the point? Also I imagine in the next 9 years we'll see more capable RISC processors ending up on opencores.org. There are already a few there now. So you can use the DW8051 that comes with your cell library ... or fetch a 32-bit 5-stage MIPS/Mhz processor off opencores and use it for free as well... etc. ARM processors are already highly area efficient and a hell of a lot more efficient in terms of mips/watt than an 8051 or 6805. I mean you'd have to clock an ARM down around <100Khz to match the throughput of operations of an 8051. Point is in the next decade things will only get better. Making the "desire" to use lower efficiency 8-bit micros even lower and lower. Tom > So you can use the DW8051 that comes with your cell library ... or > fetch a 32-bit 5-stage MIPS/Mhz processor off opencores and use it for > free as well... etc. ARM processors are already highly area efficient > and a hell of a lot more efficient in terms of mips/watt than an 8051 > or 6805. I mean you'd have to clock an ARM down around <100Khz to > match the throughput of operations of an 8051. I think power efficiency isn't a big issue for smart cards. If you offer today's smart card buyer a choice between 50% power savings or 2% cost savings, he'll take the 2% cost savings without hesitating for an instant. Question is, how many gates (chip area) does an ARM need compared with the 8 bitter? > Point is in the next decade things will only get better. Making the > "desire" to use lower efficiency 8-bit micros even lower and lower. The desire to pay as little as possible for any piece of functionality is as old as history and will always be present. > > So you can use the DW8051 that comes with your cell library ... or > > fetch a 32-bit 5-stage MIPS/Mhz processor off opencores and use it for [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > an instant. Question is, how many gates (chip area) does an ARM need > compared with the 8 bitter? About 1 or 2 mm^2 in 130nm technology. 10 years from now in 65 or 45nm [when it becomes common for the fabs] this will be moot. But you missed the point. Custom RISC processors will likely be available to the public [e.g. LGPL or similar license] and it won't make sense to use the free DW51 when a free RISC core is available that lets you do so much more. > > Point is in the next decade things will only get better. Making the > > "desire" to use lower efficiency 8-bit micros even lower and lower. > > The desire to pay as little as possible for any piece of functionality > is as old as history and will always be present. They also compromise. Why use P-256 it's slow on my 16-bit MCU... let's use P-160 or lower! it'll be fast enough! Tom > About 1 or 2 mm^2 in 130nm technology. > > 10 years from now in 65 or 45nm [when it becomes common for the fabs] > this will be moot. How can you say it will be moot? What smart cards are made in 130nm today? Why would anyone use a 130nm process if they can use 3 microns for much less cost? > But you missed the point. Custom RISC processors will likely be > available to the public [e.g. LGPL or similar license] and it won't > make sense to use the free DW51 when a free RISC core is available that > lets you do so much more. Sure, there will be high end applications that need a 32 bit card but the most common applications will still be stuff like SIM phone cards, that just hold a few account numbers and keys. Right now I doubt most of them can even do public key operations. Public key may become economically feasible sometime, but remember these things are made by the billions, so they'll still want to use 8-bit cards if they can. The difference between a 27 cent, 8-bit card and a 28 cent, 32-bit card is megabucks in the bank. > They also compromise. Why use P-256 it's slow on my 16-bit MCU... > let's use P-160 or lower! it'll be fast enough! I think they're using closer to p-120. Since they're also using single-DES.... > > About 1 or 2 mm^2 in 130nm technology. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > today? Why would anyone use a 130nm process if they can use 3 microns > for much less cost? Well the two biggest reasons why full blown processors aren't used. 1. License cost for the cpu 2. Area it requires would require package changes [e.g. larger]. I just checked over opencores.org and it's quite slim pickings. There are a few MIPS designs but no PPC like designs or ARM... That said, that can all change in 10 years. So license issues are moot. Now with a process that would take [say] 2mm^2 now ... in 65nm will be much smaller thus requiring no package changes [at least externally]. It isn't like credit card sized smart cards will be getting smaller. > > But you missed the point. Custom RISC processors will likely be > > available to the public [e.g. LGPL or similar license] and it won't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The difference between a 27 cent, 8-bit card and a 28 cent, 32-bit > card is megabucks in the bank. Again, that's today. Even now things are moving to ARM despite the license costs. Most people in the BT SIG are ARM users. So you'd see things like mice and keyboards with enough power to do ECC P-192 mults in 1M cycles!!! An ARM license can run you usually a few dollars per core. Which slows adoption rates a bit, specially for smart cards. But there clearly is demand for the power. Just need a public domain core to feed the engineers. I really don't see cost being an issue once a 32-bit public domain core is out there. Heck if I was an EE I'd probably do it myself just to stir sh.t up. But so far I'm 4 years of school and about another 4 years of experience too short to do that :-) > > They also compromise. Why use P-256 it's slow on my 16-bit MCU... > > let's use P-160 or lower! it'll be fast enough! > > I think they're using closer to p-120. Since they're also using > single-DES.... My point exactly. Tom > Patents may make business sense but all they do is take a possibly > valid technology and make it moot. If the second part is true, then they don't make business sense... ... but there are many factors involved in technology choices. Licensing terms are only one, and there are plenty of examples of customers choosing (for example) to pay for Windows rather than install Linux themselves. Closer to home, remember that the NSA recently paid Certicom $25 million for a subset of their ECC patents. I understand that patents are annoying to the developer who wants to use the patented technology, but I don't think you can argue (as you seem to be trying to do here) that they're inherently self-defeating. William >> Patents may make business sense but all they do is take a possibly >> valid technology and make it moot. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > William That's odd - why did they do that? Were they afraid of them? Wanted to use them theirselves? SignatureLTP :) > > Patents may make business sense but all they do is take a possibly > > valid technology and make it moot. > > If the second part is true, then they don't make business sense... Business sense != common sense. It makes perfect "business sense" for Intel and Apple to partner. It makes no common sense to do so [variety == better chance of survivability]. > ... but there are many factors involved in technology choices. > Licensing terms are only one, and there are plenty of examples [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > think you can argue (as you seem to be trying to do here) that > they're inherently self-defeating. I don't know what the NSA "licensed". ECC over prime fields is not patented. Things like MQV are but who gives two sh.ts? Just use DH with EC-DSA and you're all set, etc... I've asked a lot of people what they know of the Certicom patents and the answer I keep getting is "I don't know". And it's just that, all hype and little substance. For instance, I implemented prime curves in LTC for the longest while. My software is used all over. I have yet to hear from Certicom. Is that because I'm still to obscure or that they can't really do sh.t all? Patenting a PK algorithm is similar to patenting a block cipher. Other choices are available and there isn't enough drive. Now if you had a patent on fast ECC math you'd stand more chance because at least people would still be within the realm of standards. If I go out and license NTRU which ISO, IEEE, ANSI or FIPS standards am I adhering to? And this has nothing to do with technical merits. Do I care that NTRU is faster? or more secure or more suitable for my platform? Not really. If I'm to pick any protocols they have to be something that I can tell my clients that I'm following a spec. I *am* for new tech though. Don't think I'm a traveling NIST monkey or something. If you recall I emailed NTRU [I think you replied] a long while back about me adding NTRU to the library. You said no. I said "ok bye bye" and haven't looked back since. I'm sure others are the same. While you will score enough contracts to stay in business you won't have a lasting meaningful impact since nobody will inherit from your work. Say Gizmo 1000 uses NTRU then gets bought up by another company. Gizmo 2000 has more cpu or wants to be FIPS compatible. NTRU gone. Or more like say Gizmo 1000 uses NTRU and Gizma 1500 uses something else, then they merge... etc, etc, etc. Point is the patents on NTRU basically make it unattractive for most educated folk and really limit it's exposure. Which is a shame since it's a cool protocol... /rant Tom Doesn't NTRU have (or had) security problems in the past? Their $100,000 challanges getting solved in record times and the complexity big-O formula starts getting closer and closer to N rather than N^2. I never bothered to research it (or even learn it, lattice reductions...) since it was patented and I spent my time learning something that had a chance of "making it". JLC In sci.crypt Tom St Denis <tomstdenis@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Patents may make business sense but all they do is take a possibly > > > valid technology and make it moot. > > > > If the second part is true, then they don't make business sense... > Business sense != common sense. > It makes perfect "business sense" for Intel and Apple to partner. It > makes no common sense to do so [variety == better chance of > survivability]. > > ... but there are many factors involved in technology choices. > > Licensing terms are only one, and there are plenty of examples [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > think you can argue (as you seem to be trying to do here) that > > they're inherently self-defeating. > I don't know what the NSA "licensed". ECC over prime fields is not > patented. Things like MQV are but who gives two sh.ts? Just use DH > with EC-DSA and you're all set, etc... > I've asked a lot of people what they know of the Certicom patents and > the answer I keep getting is "I don't know". And it's just that, all > hype and little substance. > For instance, I implemented prime curves in LTC for the longest while. > My software is used all over. I have yet to hear from Certicom. Is > that because I'm still to obscure or that they can't really do sh.t > all? > Patenting a PK algorithm is similar to patenting a block cipher. Other > choices are available and there isn't enough drive. > Now if you had a patent on fast ECC math you'd stand more chance > because at least people would still be within the realm of standards. > If I go out and license NTRU which ISO, IEEE, ANSI or FIPS standards am > I adhering to? > And this has nothing to do with technical merits. Do I care that NTRU > is faster? or more secure or more suitable for my platform? Not > really. If I'm to pick any protocols they have to be something that I > can tell my clients that I'm following a spec. > I *am* for new tech though. Don't think I'm a traveling NIST monkey or > something. If you recall I emailed NTRU [I think you replied] a long > while back about me adding NTRU to the library. You said no. I said > "ok bye bye" and haven't looked back since. I'm sure others are the > same. > While you will score enough contracts to stay in business you won't > have a lasting meaningful impact since nobody will inherit from your > work. Say Gizmo 1000 uses NTRU then gets bought up by another company. > Gizmo 2000 has more cpu or wants to be FIPS compatible. NTRU gone. > Or more like say Gizmo 1000 uses NTRU and Gizma 1500 uses something > else, then they merge... etc, etc, etc. > Point is the patents on NTRU basically make it unattractive for most > educated folk and really limit it's exposure. Which is a shame since > it's a cool protocol... > /rant > Tom > Doesn't NTRU have (or had) security problems in the past? Their > $100,000 challanges getting solved in record times and the complexity [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > reductions...) since it was patented and I spent my time learning > something that had a chance of "making it". Bingo. Last I heard their signatures were weak and you could do attacks using messages that can't be decrypted. However, they had some padding or pre-processing tricks to help there... or something. I don't think the math is all that bad I just don't care to investigate further due to the license issues. I'm trying to avoid making my contribution to this thread a smear on the smart folk at NTRU and more so towards the marketting folk who think EVERYTHING has a price. Tom Just to respond briefly on this: - There were attacks based on decryption failures, but they were eliminated three years ago by appropriate choice of parameters. Our fault for optimizing for bandwidth rather than security -- the no-decryption-failure option was always available, we just didn't take it. See http://www.ntru.com/cryptolab/articles.htm#2003_2, http://www.ntru.com/cryptolab/articles.htm#2003_3, http://www.ntru.com/cryptolab/articles.htm#2005_1, - NTRUSign signatures aren't zero-knowledge, but our best estimates are that you need at least 2^30 signatures generated with the same key, and probably many orders of magnitude more, before you can begin to recover any useful information about the private key. See http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/1363/lattPK/submissions.html#2005-08. > Their $100,000 challanges getting solved in record times I'm not sure what you're thinking of here; we've never had a challenge problem cracked. (Maybe you were thinking of the recent RSA factorization? That was solved faster than the previous problem, so could be counted as "record", but the time confirmed existing security estimates for keys of a given length rather than reducing them). > and the complexity > big-O formula starts getting closer and closer to N rather than N^2. This is the running time of the algorithm, not the running time to break it! N^2 wouldn't be a great security level for any algorithm, but it's a pretty good running time. I agree with Tom that this isn't the right thread to get into a discussion of the merits of NTRU; I just wanted to point out that I disagree with him on whether or not patenting a technology is always counterproductive. (BTW, I don't know if I made it clear in my earlier mails, but I'm currently the CTO of NTRU, so I have a dog in this fight). Cheers, William <snip> Most of that reply is for JL more than for me :-) so I'll reply to the last bit. > I agree with Tom that this isn't the right thread to get into a > discussion of the merits of NTRU; I just wanted to point out that I > disagree with him on whether or not patenting a technology is always > counterproductive. I never said it's "always" counterproductive. I just think this particular technology doesn't warrant such status. It's like given the choice of driving to work or ride this patented space-age two wheel human powered device to work. Sure the latter is better for the environment and your health but people have a choice to take the former. ECC may be slower, but it *is* part of several standards so while you bite the bullet on memory and speed you still have something useable [specially in the presence of 32-bit cores]. So people aren't drawn to NTRU by other means, e.g. because it's way more secure or because it's part of some lucrative standard worth supporting. So why would they license it other than they want to be different. You're the Apple of cryptography. :-) Rock'On! Tom Rock on!</picture of Einstein sticking tongue out> William > I'm not sure what you're thinking of here; we've never had a challenge > problem cracked. (Maybe you were thinking of the recent RSA > factorization? That was solved faster than the previous problem, so > could be counted as "record", but the time confirmed existing security > estimates for keys of a given length rather than reducing them). You say "we" Are you in some way affiliated? -- LTP :) Yes, I'm the CTO. I made that clear at the end of the post you reference, but should have made it clear from the beginning of the thread. Sorry about that -- I forgot that I was posting from my gmail account. > Yes, I'm the CTO. I made that clear at the end of the post you > reference, but should have made it clear from the beginning of the > thread. Sorry about that -- I forgot that I was posting from my gmail > account. No problem - but as the CTO (a term I had to google define) - you wouldn't by chance know where I could find some sample Java source to "play around with" would you? -- LTP :) On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:44:52 -0700, "Luc The Perverse" <sll_noSpamlicious_z_XXX_m@cc.usu.edu> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >No problem - but as the CTO (a term I had to google define) - you wouldn't >by chance know where I could find some sample Java source to "play around >with" would you? there is a bunch in the Feghi book. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/encryption.html SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:44:52 -0700, "Luc The Perverse" > <sll_noSpamlicious_z_XXX_m@cc.usu.edu> wrote, quoted or indirectly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > there is a bunch in the Feghi book. See > http://mindprod.com/jgloss/i_is_stupid_spammer.html I don't see NTRU but I do see ads. Nice spam. Tom >> there is a bunch in the Feghi book. See >> http://mindprod.com/jgloss/i_is_stupid_spammer.html > >I don't see NTRU but I do see ads. Nice spam. I thought you were asking for coding examples for JCE ciphers. I pointed you to them. It may not have been what you asked for, but it is not spam. . See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/spam.html SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > >> there is a bunch in the Feghi book. See > >> http://mindprod.com/jgloss/i_is_stupid_spammer.html [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > pointed you to them. It may not have been what you asked for, but it > is not spam. He was asking for NTRU in Java not just "any cipher". If you had followed the thread you would have realize that wasn't what he was asking for. I consider it spam because the page you linked to has been infected with "I depend on advertisement"-itis and needs to be treated by someone with a medical degree. Tom >He was asking for NTRU in Java not just "any cipher". If you had >followed the thread you would have realize that wasn't what he was >asking for. That was not obvious. He did not start out with that request. It was just one of the suggestions offered to him. The subject line does not indicate that restriction either. But even if I did answer the wrong question I is still not spam. You are misusing the word. It is like calling some male you don't like an "old sow". If you must insult, at least use correct terminology. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > >He was asking for NTRU in Java not just "any cipher". If you had > >followed the thread you would have realize that wasn't what he was > >asking for. > > That was not obvious. He did not start out with that request. It was > just one of the suggestions offered to him. Looks to me like he did: Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,sci.crypt Subject: Java Source For Asymmetric Key Ciphers Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:39:38 -0700 Message-ID: <cuct93x07t.ln2@loki.cmears.id.au> Hi - I'm looking for HFE and NTRU java source code. I don't want to pay for these libraries, because I'm not going to make a product with them, I only want to read through the algorithms and "play" with them. I have trouble understanding the algorithm by reading a pper, and have a better chance of understanding if reading code. Are they available anywhere for free? >I consider it spam because the page you linked to has been infected >with "I depend on advertisement"-itis and needs to be treated by >someone with a medical degree. I have poured about 10 years into preparing that material based largely on monitoring the real world problems people post in the comp.lang.java.* newsgroups. It barely generates enough revenue to pay the ISP. For years it did not even do that. The website is a favour to Java community. It can save you a lot of time if you learn to use it. I can no longer afford to subsidize it purely on my own. I have HIV and my time on earth is limited. I want to contribute something to the planet before I croak. Posts like yours really make my day. Your contribution to Java appears to be one thread. You have. have some nerve to stand in judgment. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > Your contribution to Java appears to be one thread. You have. have > some nerve to stand in judgment. Tom St Denis isn't a Java programmer (at least not in public ;-). You may notice that this thread is cross-posted to sci.crypt. As for "contribution" see: http://libtomcrypt.org/ I'm a bit surprised you that seem not to know it already. -- chris On 22 Jan 2006 10:47:29 GMT, "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : > http://libtomcrypt.org/ what a hypocrite! This guy has even more screen real estate devoted to ads than I do. There are none on my home page or the Java glossary page. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > On 22 Jan 2006 10:47:29 GMT, "Chris Uppal" > <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> wrote, quoted or indirectly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ads than I do. There are none on my home page or the Java glossary > page. What ads do I have on my page? You mean the two static logos one from my employer who paid for a lot of LTC development and the other from the guy who actually hosts the website [and he's not a company, I just link to his personal website]. You'll note I don't have goooooooogle ads sprawled on every page and it's quite easy from the top of the page to navigate to the downloads... pissing contests aside ... Your page you gave us a link for amounts to one of those "search search" pages you can find in google that are nothing than "top 10" links with dozen of ads and annoying cookie and other bugs. I'm sure "Java JCE" would turn up useful hits, let's check... http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Java+JCE&btnG=Google+Search&meta= yup. Tom >You'll note I don't have goooooooogle ads sprawled on every page and >it's quite easy from the top of the page to navigate to the >downloads... Yes, yours ARE ads and further irrelevant ads, and further big image ads. At least the google ads on my site are usually relevant to the topic at hand. They are actually often USEFUL. They are just a little text pushed off in the top left and bottom right so you can more easily ignore them. Yours are irrelevant to your users plopped right in the middle of your home page. I don't have ads on the home or index pages other than a comment about the source of the site master image. Running a website like mine takes huge amounts of work that nobody sees, like several hours a day doing the very boring work of researching and replacing dead links, validating HTML, cross-indexing etc. The website now just barely pays its ISP bills. I don't get any money for the labour I put into creating the content. It infuriates me when you equate me with some spammer. My website is a gift to the Java community. Further your malicious, deliberate and unapologetic butchering of the English language infuriates me. You may not like me or my website, and you may think me an incompetent idiot for answering the wrong question who is motivated purely by money, or perhaps your vitriol is inspired by my politics, or you may consider my website worthless, but that still has nothing to do with spam. Spammer does not equate to "bad person", or "person whose post I found useless". SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > >You'll note I don't have goooooooogle ads sprawled on every page and > >it's quite easy from the top of the page to navigate to the > >downloads... > > Yes, yours ARE ads and further irrelevant ads, and further big image > ads. First off, once again I'm getting flamed and I didn't even post my url. Luc did [and note Luc I don't blame you for the result, don't worry]. > At least the google ads on my site are usually relevant to the topic > at hand. They are actually often USEFUL. They are just a little text > pushed off in the top left and bottom right so you can more easily > ignore them. Still annoying and serve your purpose more than mine. I don't make money off my static logos. Sure it may help SSC and Dan out but they don't pay me to have the logos there. I do it because they help me out. Note for a long while I didn't have any logos there. > Yours are irrelevant to your users plopped right in the middle of your > home page. I don't have ads on the home or index pages other than a > comment about the source of the site master image. Um middle of the page? All the change/features/download links are at the top of every page before any other content. Below the "ads" are my news items. So if you go there only to read the news [which few people do] then yeah sorry there are "ads" there. But most just want the damn download page. > Running a website like mine takes huge amounts of work that nobody > sees, like several hours a day doing the very boring work of > researching and replacing dead links, validating HTML, cross-indexing > etc. You sir can be replaced by a carefully written shell script. > The website now just barely pays its ISP bills. I don't get any money > for the labour I put into creating the content. It infuriates me when > you equate me with some spammer. My website is a gift to the Java > community. Probably, I dunno. All I know is the link you offered had nothing to do with the OP question and had advertisements on it. > Further your malicious, deliberate and unapologetic butchering of the > English language infuriates me. You may not like me or my website, > and you may think me an incompetent idiot for answering the wrong > question who is motivated purely by money, or perhaps your vitriol is > inspired by my politics, or you may consider my website worthless, but > that still has nothing to do with spam. Maybe. Eitherway I suggest since your site *is* commercial that you think carefully about linking to it. Tom >> >You'll note I don't have goooooooogle ads sprawled on every page and >> >it's quite easy from the top of the page to navigate to the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > First off, once again I'm getting flamed and I didn't even post my url. > Luc did [and note Luc I don't blame you for the result, don't worry]. Well that is reassuring. But if you are interested in my opinion - I will say that Roedy is a good guy and does a lot for comp.lang.java.programmer - it is another group that I actively patrol. Maybe you initially mistook his post for a spam message - because it was not an answer to the original question - which is understandable. However - the fact is that the vast majority of Roedy's posts are helpful - and I personally welcome links to his site. You more than anyone should know how frustrating it can be getting flamed for trying to help someone. Can't we all just get along? -- LTP :) >> Running a website like mine takes huge amounts of work that nobody >> sees, like several hours a day doing the very boring work of >> researching and replacing dead links, validating HTML, cross-indexing >> etc. > >You sir can be replaced by a carefully written shell script. Tom, you are brainfarting[1]. http://groups.google.fi/groups?enc_author=rO4l2C8AAADMuul5QeR2UJqecwMLSe5B3cESkj 61SW03hNjtg4qiWgu0ccM7HvtkWBcvG3RWw9M&scoring=d Picture a java-guy coming to sci.crypt shouting David Wagner to be a troll. Those who have eaten enough rice might say: - Select your adversaries with care. - Choose your fights carefully - Don't get into a fight unless it is worth it Be a gentleman and apologize Juuso [1] http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Brainfart&defid=548672#548672 > Tom, you are brainfarting[1]. > http://groups.google.fi/groups?enc_author=rO4l2C8AAADMuul5QeR2UJqecwMLSe5B3cESkj 61SW03hNjtg4qiWgu0ccM7HvtkWBcvG3RWw9M&scoring=d Gah? I post a lot too. Does that make me smart or otherwise insightful? I'd hope not. > Picture a java-guy coming to sci.crypt shouting David Wagner to be a > troll. I didn't start the cross-post flame war, it was always burning ... [damn 80s!] > Those who have eaten enough rice might say: > - Select your adversaries with care. > - Choose your fights carefully > - Don't get into a fight unless it is worth it > > Be a gentleman and apologize I say sir, I say sir, I do believe I shan't apologize. What say you, duel at 10 paces on morrow's eve? Tom >> Be a gentleman and apologize > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Tom No can do, I just read an another Sun Tzu chapter and find it better to arrange the duel between those seek a fight. What say you about a duel Tom Vs. "merits of NTRU" on #sci.crypt at some planetary time tomorrow. Namely, I sense William Whyte also to be interested / High lighting / Advertizing / and discussing the topic. Noticed him saying earlier in this thread: >I agree with Tom that this isn't the right thread to get into a >discussion of the merits of NTRU; I just wanted to point out that I >disagree with him on whether or not patenting a technology is always >counterproductive. In addition NTRU has been advertized on this channel earlier (2000), in a way which can be seen as "spam"! (But that is understandable since it was the wild year 2000). http://groups.google.fi/group/sci.crypt/browse_frm/thread/0d525c00a7d02feb/f5afe b38f3cfa6f4#f5afeb38f3cfa6f4 So, has something changed, what are the prospects and threads for NTRU technology (QC - prospects?). Any What are the benefits. What other vulnerable concerns there are . Who and why should implement NTRU. I am certain that that many would have interest for that 'duel'. Of cause the warning notice should be placed, cause the products can be roughly and even unfairly treated at this channel. Shall I set the duel ready ? (cheap tickets & popcorns available) Juuso ps. did you get my private messages? >>>Running a website like mine takes huge amounts of work that nobody >>>sees, like several hours a day doing the very boring work of [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > [1] > http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Brainfart&defid=548672#548672 You want Tom to be a gentleman and apologise? Impossible. He is mentally incapable of such a feat. He has stated this repeatedly. He has admitted often that this is part of the reason why he is overweight, and finds it difficult to make it with the ladies. >> Be a gentleman and apologize > >You want Tom to be a gentleman and apologise? Impossible. He is >mentally incapable of such a feat. You sir, seem like a cheap liar. Tom is well capable for apologizing Google "I apologize" http://groups.google.fi/groups?hl=fi&q=%22apologize%22&qt_s=Haku&enc_author=m2VR 9xQAAAD_wLBs_5-bxpZLsupvpyYMOPANdqfI6prRsqjc7uCt1A In addition if you google him saying sorry: http://groups.google.fi/groups?hl=fi&q=%22sorry%22&qt_s=Haku&enc_author=m2VR9xQA AAD_wLBs_5-bxpZLsupvpyYMOPANdqfI6prRsqjc7uCt1A 49 sorry results! (which is about 49 times more than you have ever posted - isn't it). Are you by any chance one of those numerous anonymous lurkers who have been following #sci.crypt for a long time and feel angered by Toms and Joe posting critical comments. Juuso > First off, once again I'm getting flamed and I didn't even post my url. > Luc did [and note Luc I don't blame you for the result, don't worry]. For the sake of completeness I should point out that it was I who posted the URL. I wish I hadn't now. In fact I wish I had never become even peripherally involved in what appears to be yet another Usenet cesspit. -- chris >> First off, once again I'm getting flamed and I didn't even post my url. >> Luc did [and note Luc I don't blame you for the result, don't worry]. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -- chris Cesspit, (thanks for that word). No... no way If you refer to my proposal of a discussion duel about Tom Vs. "merits of the NTRU", the idea is not to degrade or glorify a product - just to discuss. NTRU has vountarely attempted to gain publicity using #sci.crypt and Dr. Whyte is a worthy representer of their technology. However since NTRU is a commercial product they can't use newsgroups for advertizing a product in a way businesses often would like. On the other hand regulars have expressed interest and opinions about NTRU... Solution is to invite a discussion. Ok, #sci.crypt is the second most hostile place on earth, so it is bit risky. Also, if NTRU dares to accept the invitation, I will bonus-post a "patent spoiler", which the company might find highly amusing. Juuso Hukkanen (to reply by e-mail set addresses month and year to correct) ps. No, the "patent spoiler" is not about the NTRU ;-) >> Your contribution to Java appears to be one thread. You have. have >> some nerve to stand in judgment. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I'm a bit surprised you that seem not to know it already. I didn't mean to be starting something. This was actually quite unexpected. SignatureLTP :) >>I consider it spam because the page you linked to has been infected >>with "I depend on advertisement"-itis and needs to be treated by [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Your contribution to Java appears to be one thread. You have. have >some nerve to stand in judgment. Take it easy, Roedy. It is well-known in sci.crypt that Tom is a bully and that his very first knee-jerk reaction is always to attack *anyone* offering to help folks in sci.crypt with programming code of any kind. So, even though a lot of people are not telling him publicly to shut up, they are likely thinking it. Your offer appears to be generous, and I think most will appreciate it for what it is. OT, but regarding your condition: It is my belief the good things you do in this world will serve you well in your next experience, and bring you closer to the destination we all will eventually get to. Some of us will make it quickly, and some of us have a really long journey due to a basic refusal to embrace certain truths. I'll leave it at that. Anyway, try and rest easy that a lot of folks appreciate your efforts. > It is well-known in sci.crypt that Tom is a bully and that his very > first knee-jerk reaction is always to attack *anyone* offering to help > folks in sci.crypt with programming code of any kind. Spamervisement websites are not "help". If you can't afford to run a static html page without google ads ... you need to get a better job. > So, even though a lot of people are not telling him publicly to shut > up, they are likely thinking it. Funny Stan, how many of the recent posts have you answered with your insightful and deeply knowledgeable information base? Just wondering because there have been dozens of threads since you last posted and you only seem to chime in when you want to bad mouth others. Can you say Brat? I know you can. BTW How's the eight grade anyways? I remember when I was in it. Tough times man! Good luck! Tom >> It is well-known in sci.crypt that Tom is a bully and that his very >> first knee-jerk reaction is always to attack *anyone* offering to help >> folks in sci.crypt with programming code of any kind. > >Spamervisement websites are not "help". If you can't afford to run a >static html page without google ads ... you need to get a better job. You're an idiot and a bully and there is nothing wrong with Roedy's site http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html He offers a lot of helpful things pertaining to Java and a lot of other things that are related. There is actually more ad space on your ugly site than his, which is not particularly surprising you lard-assed hypocrite. Even if there wasn't, he has a couple of tiny non-obtrusive ads that are completely tolerable. When you take into consideration all of the good stuff inside his site, it is quite an accomplishment, really. You yelling at Roedy Green about his site is like a turd yelling at a beautiful sunset. I'm afraid I don't. But, seriously, the core algorithm is way easier to implement from scratch than RSA or ECC -- check out the tutorials on our website. http://www.ntru.com/cryptolab/tutorials.htm. I feel like I should apologise for the on-topic post... > I feel like I should apologise for the on-topic post... This is sci.crypt at it's best. Feuding and fighting because everyone is so sensitive that their "feelings" might be hurt. Gotta tip-toe around and watch out for their "feelings" wouldn't want to hurt their "feelings". Gotta make sure their "feelings" are ok. :-) Ohhhhhh yeah! Tom Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. Simply choose a title, complete the application form and submit it. Read more ...
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