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Java Forum / General / December 2005How to compromise with other programer/PM's bug?
Hi All, Our PM( project manager) want to do a perfact job, and then he always change new spec; and then we have to change code again and agin. Moreover, anyone's change is possible to affect our's design, right? and then we have to update again and again.. How do you think? Best regards, Boki. > Our PM( project manager) want to do a perfact job, and then he >always change new spec; and then we have to change code again and agin. >Moreover, anyone's change is possible to affect our's design, right? and >then we have to update again and again.. Though it may be frustrating, you write the contract so that you get a lot more money when this happens. If you are an employee, the person who oks the changes is the one who gets called on the carpet for going over budget. Usually you have the other problem, a boss trying hide garbage under the rug who won't let you take time to refactor/redesign code.  SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > Our PM( project manager) want to do a perfact job, and then he >always change new spec; and then we have to change code again and agin. >Moreover, anyone's change is possible to affect our's design, right? and >then we have to update again and again.. If changes to only vaguely related code trigger changes in yours, then you need to thing harder about how to decouple, so that only one small part of your code ties into the other code, and all your code goes through that interface. One of things I got such a kick out of in your situation is PREDICTING what the boss was going to demand to be corrected and planning ahead so that I could kick in the new implementation by changing a table or a configuration constant. I would come back 15 minutes later to the astounded boss with the completed work. The art of writing maintainable code is trying to guess what will likely change and plan ahead to make those changes easy. I have written an essay on how to make it difficult. See http://mindprod.com/gloss/unmain.html SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. Thansk, I think: Something I can control, I will treat it as easy. Something I can't control, but I have to keep in mind that someday it may burst;it makes me frustrated. Best regards, Boki. "Roedy Green" <my_email_is_posted_on_my_website@munged.invalid> ???????:rpb7p11jtcnuv971ga24vh2sdng81bef0s@4ax.com... >> Our PM( project manager) want to do a perfact job, and then he >>always change new spec; and then we have to change code again and agin. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > written an essay on how to make it difficult. See > http://mindprod.com/gloss/unmain.html > Hi All, > Our PM( project manager) want to do a perfact job, and then he [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > How do you think? I think you'd better get used to this. After 20+ years in systems work, let me suggest that this sort of behaviour is more the rule than an exception. Users and managers tend to change specs at frequent intervals, even when they should know that it causes all sorts of negative consequences, like frustration on the part of the developers. I was once on a project that involved 150 full time people, $15 million dollars, 2.5 years of elapsed time and the prestige of some high profile people. One of the first things the project leaders agreed upon was that the specs couldn't change after a certain date. At all. Despite that realization, major changes were being made almost every day, even well after that date had passed. I'd like to be able to tell you that the project succeeded despite this violation of their own principles but I'd be lying. It's not pretty but it does tend to be the way the real world works. It might be best to accustom yourself to this now, rather than letting it grind you down later. Rhino > Hi All, > Our PM( project manager) want to do a perfact job, and then he [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > How do you think? I think you'd better get used to this. After 20+ years in systems work, let me suggest that this sort of behaviour is more the rule than an exception. Users and managers tend to change specs at frequent intervals, even when they should know that it causes all sorts of negative consequences, like frustration on the part of the developers. I was once on a project that involved 150 full time people, $15 million dollars, 2.5 years of elapsed time and the prestige of some high profile people. One of the first things the project leaders agreed upon was that the specs couldn't change after a certain date. At all. Despite that realization, major changes were being made almost every day, even well after that date had passed. I'd like to be able to tell you that the project succeeded despite this violation of their own principles but I'd be lying. It's not pretty but it does tend to be the way the real world works. It might be best to accustom yourself to this now, rather than letting it grind you down later. Rhino I can only say this is not profession PM. At least, I don't agree this. : ) Best regards, Boki. >I can only say this is not profession PM. > >At least, I don't agree this. : ) Your disillusionment is similar to a similar one coming when you discover that government works nothing at all the way you learned in civics class. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. >>I can only say this is not profession PM. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > discover that government works nothing at all the way you learned in > civics class. I can think of plenty of US examples. Do you have any from Canada? -- LTP :) On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 14:21:58 -0700, "Luc The Perverse" <sll_noSpamlicious_z_XXX_m@cc.usu.edu> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >I can think of plenty of US examples. Do you have any from Canada? We are wandering off topic here. Things not covered: 1. the way parties change their platforms for strategic reasons in a multiparty election. 2. the amount of lying at election time about what a party intends to do and what they do. 3. that elected governments reflect the will of the people, rather than the will of the powerful. 4. how bribery works. It is rarely handing over an envelope of cash. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > 3. that elected governments reflect the will of the people, rather > than the will of the powerful. Er, did you mean that the other way around? In theory it's the will of the people ... in practice it's whatever the powerful can spin enough people into swallowing ... Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:41:51 -0700, "Monique Y. Mudama" <spam@bounceswoosh.org> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Er, did you mean that the other way around? In theory it's the will of >the people ... in practice it's whatever the powerful can spin enough >people into swallowing ... yes. I was not consistent it describing the they were taught or the way they are. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > 2. the amount of lying at election time about what a party intends to > do and what they do. Some of us do try quite hard not to, actually. If someone puts an untrue statement on one of my election leaflets and I don't catch it before it's printed then it *will* get spotted by the punters and I *will* lose votes and I *will* lose my seat if it's bad enough or frequent enough. The power of the internet - an error on an election leaflet is usually being discussed on the local newsgroup long before we've finished delivering it. On one occasion I insisted that an entire print run of leaflets be scrapped rather than delivered, and on another I required a correction to a mistake to be printed in the next leaflet. My opponents, on the other hand, don't always appear to be quite so careful. Possibly that's why I get elected and they don't :-). -- Tim Ward Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk > I can only say this is not profession PM. As others have pointed out, you should be very grateful to have a P.M. who gives you the time to change your code when the spec changes, and presumably creates additional revenue for your employer by doing so. This is, in fact, the very definition of professional project management. > At least, I don't agree this. : ) You need to grow up or change careers. Signature======================================================================== Ian Pilcher i.pilcher@comcast.net ======================================================================== NO, this PM never give me extra bonus, what I ever get is - US$25 dinner(s) .. = = ... That's a very important reason I don't like to work hard for him. I work hard about 9 months before, almost no holiday/weekend, what I get ? few times of free US$25 dinner ( This PM is different to our president, my president will give us extra bonus when he is requiring extra work) I remember CMMI said: PM MUST design their SPEC very carefully, because it can't be changed when engineers ( around the world ) start working! Now, what I can do is accept his requirement ( this PM is my boss's boss ) But I will really prepare better ability myself, and find a better enviroment when this contract was expired. Thank you very much. Best regards, Boki. > NO, this PM never give me extra bonus, what I ever get is - US$25 > dinner(s) .. = = ... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I work hard about 9 months before, almost no holiday/weekend, what I > get ? few times of free US$25 dinner Welcome to the real world. I would imagine everyone has or will work for someone like this. A PM is always being squeezed from both sides. The people above him don't want to give him more time/resources or less scope. The people under him want more time/resources or less scope. A good PM will find the right balance. Last company I worked at hired a PM who honestly believed that whatever estimate development gave him for time he should cut in half. If we told him it would take 6 months he'd set the schedule for 3 months. The reality was that development would take 6 months, plus testing, plus documentation, plus installation, etc. At least your PM buys you dinner occasionally. I was told if I'm not working ATLEAST 60 hour weeks (for 37.5 hours pay) then I'm not working hard and if I'm not working hard I'm on a list of people who might get laid off. I quit and work for someone much more reasonable now. If they don't appreciate you, find someone who does. Just be careful that you are not jumping out the frying pan and into the fire. > ( This PM is different to our president, my president will give us > extra bonus when he is requiring extra work) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > PM MUST design their SPEC very carefully, because it can't be changed > when engineers ( around the world ) start working! I find it hard to believe anything that talks in absolutes. If CMMI indicates "MUST" and "CAN'T" then it will not work. There must be some level of flexibility in whatever you do. If the customer is willing to pay for it then specifications can change. The difference between a good PM and a bad PM, in my humble opinion, is a good PM will have someone above them pay for the change. A bad PM will have someone under them pay for the change. SignatureSend e-mail to: darrell dot grainger at utoronto dot ca "Hello World!" Here is a smile for every body ":D" [A PM is always being squeezed from both sides. The people above him don't want to give him more time/resources or less scope. The people under him want more time/resources or less scope. A good PM will find the right balance. ] [The difference between a good PM and a bad PM, in my humble opinion, is a good PM will have someone above them pay for the change. A bad PM will have someone under them pay for the change. ] Good comments. [I quit and work for someone much more reasonable now.] Good choice. [ Just be careful that you are not jumping out the frying pan and into the fire.] Thanks. : ) I only want to explain, the CMMI didn't use that kind of word(s), that is my personal description after study. btw, I believe I can analysis our PM is good or bad now ... :D Best regards, Boki. ""."" <darrell@does.want.spam.com> ???????:Pine.GSO.4.58.0512061304210.6748@drj.pf... >> NO, this PM never give me extra bonus, what I ever get is - US$25 >> dinner(s) .. = = ... [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > good PM will have someone above them pay for the change. A bad PM will > have someone under them pay for the change. Check out this book : 'The Career Programmer : Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World' by Christopher Duncan Thank you very much, this will be one of my studying this week. : ) Best regards, Boki. To get rid of all kind of PMs start freelancing. Amit :-) In fact, that's one of my plan :) Any suggestion? :) ( not limit to coding/programmer ) Best regards, Boki. > In fact, that's one of my plan :) > > Any suggestion? :) ( not limit to coding/programmer ) > > Best regards, Boki. I hear that winning the lottery gets you rich =P Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html I never buy it. You did? Good luck! :D Free MagazinesGet these publications absolutely FREE for up to 12 months. There are no hidden fees and no obligation. 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