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Java Forum / General / December 2005

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Need help with Java MulticastSocket

Thread view: 
rick - 03 Dec 2005 16:55 GMT
I'm trying to use Java multicasting on a single computer (Linux) for
testing purposes and can't get it to work. I'm using the example from
the Java Tutorial:
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/networking/datagrams/broadcasting.html.

The relevant code is as follows (modified a bit here to make it simpler):

Server:

   String testMsg = "TestMessage";
   byte[] buf = testMsg.getBytes();    
   InetAddress group = InetAddress.getByName("230.0.0.1");
   DatagramPacket packet;
   packet = new DatagramPacket(buf, buf.length,  group, 4446);
   socket.send(packet);
   System.out.println("Test message sent");

Client:

   MulticastSocket socket;
   socket = new MulticastSocket(4446);
   InetAddress address = InetAddress.getByName("230.0.0.1");
   socket.joinGroup(address);
   DatagramPacket packet;
   byte[] buf = new byte[256];       
   packet = new DatagramPacket(buf, buf.length);
   socket.receive(packet);
   String received = new String(packet.getData());
   System.out.println("Message received: " + received);

I start the client first and it stops at "socket.receive(packet), which
I verify in a debugger. Then I start the server, which successfully sends
the DatagramPacket. No exceptions are thrown by either the client or
server. If I run "netstat -gn", I can see the 230.0.0.1 multicast group is
created when the client calls socket.joinGroup(). The problem is that the
client never receives the datagram from the server.

Help. I can't figure out what's going wrong here.

Thanks,

Rick
Knute Johnson - 03 Dec 2005 17:58 GMT
> I'm trying to use Java multicasting on a single computer (Linux) for
> testing purposes and can't get it to work. I'm using the example from
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> Rick

Rick:

Are you running IPTABLES?  Could that have a chain that is blocking it?

Signature

Knute Johnson
email s/nospam/knute/

rick - 03 Dec 2005 21:05 GMT
>> I'm trying to use Java multicasting on a single computer (Linux) for
>> testing purposes and can't get it to work. I'm using the example from
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> Are you running IPTABLES?  Could that have a chain that is blocking it?

I don't think so. I did a "ps -efw |grep iptables" and nothing found. I
did an "iptables --list -v", but I'm not sure what to look for in the
listing.

Thanks.
Knute Johnson - 04 Dec 2005 18:24 GMT
>>>I'm trying to use Java multicasting on a single computer (Linux) for
>>>testing purposes and can't get it to work. I'm using the example from
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
>
> Thanks.

I don't see anything wrong, why don't you post a compilable test that
doesn't work so we can try it.

Signature

Knute Johnson
email s/nospam/knute/

rick - 04 Dec 2005 20:41 GMT
>>>>I'm trying to use Java multicasting on a single computer (Linux) for
>>>>testing purposes and can't get it to work. I'm using the example from
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> I don't see anything wrong, why don't you post a compilable test that
> doesn't work so we can try it.

Hmmm. Me neither. One fact that I failed to mention is that I had
this code working a year ago on the same machine. I'm working on
a project that I put away and have resurrected and have found
this feature not working anymore.

The code can be obtained from the Java Tutorial website.
Here are links to the tutorial page and the files to download:

The tutorial:

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/networking/datagrams/broadcasting.html

Files:

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/networking/datagrams/example-1dot1/Multi
castServer.java

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/networking/datagrams/example-1dot1/Multi
castServerThread.java

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/networking/datagrams/example-1dot1/Multi
castClient.java

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/networking/datagrams/example-1dot1/Quote
ServerThread.java

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/networking/datagrams/example-1dot1/one-l
iners.txt


Instructions:

First run MulticastClient.class, which does a MulticastSocket.joinGroup().
Then run MulticastServer.class, which sends DatagramPacketS to the
multicast group, which the client is supposed to receive and print to
standard out.

I'm running Java 1.5.0 build 1.5.0-b64 on Linux 2.6 kernel. I tried
running this from the command line and from Eclipse. Same result.

Thanks very much for your efforts.
Knute Johnson - 05 Dec 2005 01:52 GMT
Try this and let me know if it works.

import java.io.*;
import java.net.*;

public class mtest {
    public mtest() {
        Runnable server = new Runnable() {
            public void run() {
                try {
                    int n = 0;
                    InetAddress address =
InetAddress.getByName("230.0.0.1");
                    DatagramSocket ds = new DatagramSocket();
                    while (true) {
                        byte[] buf = Integer.toString(n++).getBytes();
                        DatagramPacket dp = new
DatagramPacket(buf,buf.length,
                         address,12345);
                        ds.send(dp);
                        try { Thread.sleep(1000);
                        } catch (InterruptedException ie) { }
                    }
                } catch (IOException ioe) {
                    ioe.printStackTrace();
                    System.exit(0);
                }
            }
        };

        Runnable client = new Runnable() {
            public void run() {
                try {
                    InetAddress group = InetAddress.getByName("230.0.0.1");
                    MulticastSocket ms = new MulticastSocket(12345);
                    ms.joinGroup(group);
                    while (true) {
                        byte[] buf = new byte[32];
                        DatagramPacket dp = new
DatagramPacket(buf,buf.length);
                        ms.receive(dp);
                        String str = new
String(dp.getData(),dp.getOffset(),
                         dp.getLength());
                        System.out.println(str);
                    }
                } catch (IOException ioe) {
                    ioe.printStackTrace();
                    System.exit(0);
                }
            }
        };

        new Thread(client).start();
        new Thread(server).start();
    }

    public static void main(String[] args) {
        new mtest();
    }
}

Signature

Knute Johnson
email s/nospam/knute/

rick - 05 Dec 2005 13:36 GMT
That doesn't work either. Same result. The sender sends, but nothing
is ever received...very strange. I assume that the example from
the Java Tutorial worked for you?

Rick
Knute Johnson - 05 Dec 2005 16:42 GMT
> That doesn't work either. Same result. The sender sends, but nothing
> is ever received...very strange. I assume that the example from
> the Java Tutorial worked for you?
>
> Rick

Rick:

I just wrote that one to see if it would work.  It works fine on XP but
didn't work on Linux until I opened a port in the firewall.  I'm pretty
sure that's where your problem is.  You didn't say which version of
Linux you are running but in FC they use iptables.

Signature

Knute Johnson
email s/nospam/knute/

rick - 06 Dec 2005 12:15 GMT
Knute,

You're a genius! Ok, here's what I did. I poked around my system
and found a program called Guarddog, which manages iptables via
a very nice GUI. As a simple test, I temporarily disabled the
firewall completely and then ran your multicast program. Well,
obviously, it worked. I still have a question. Can you give me
some guidance on what setting in the firewall is likely causing
my problem here. Clearly, I don't want to disable the entire
firewall. Also, do you know if most Linux systems are likely to
be configured with this setting restricted, preventing multicast
from working?

Thanks again.

Rick
rick - 06 Dec 2005 17:43 GMT
Assuming that multicasting uses UDP (is that correct?) I added a UDP port
matching the port used in our multicasting test program via Guarddog.
Guarddog indicated that iptables was successfully updated, but when I do
an "iptables -L" to get a listing, the UDP port I added is not included
in the listing. And the multicast test still doesn't work. Do you know
what I'm missing here?

Thanks,

Rick
Knute Johnson - 07 Dec 2005 05:12 GMT
> Assuming that multicasting uses UDP (is that correct?) I added a UDP port
> matching the port used in our multicasting test program via Guarddog.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Rick

I'm not sure.  Try an iptables -L and see if there is a chain with the
UDP port in it.  And post the output of iptables -L here too.

Signature

Knute Johnson
email s/nospam/knute/

rick - 07 Dec 2005 14:29 GMT
>> Assuming that multicasting uses UDP (is that correct?) I added a UDP port
>> matching the port used in our multicasting test program via Guarddog.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I'm not sure.  Try an iptables -L and see if there is a chain with the
> UDP port in it.  And post the output of iptables -L here too.

I had done an iptables -L (see above). I tried again with Guarddog (added
12345 to match your program) and it doesn't show up. Here's the output:
(btw, I really appreciate your help so far. If you don't know why Guarddog
isn't working, perhaps I should take this question to a more appropriate
forum rather than taking more of your time. If so, just let me know.)

root@1[scripts]# iptables -L
Chain INPUT (policy DROP)
target     prot opt source               destination
ACCEPT     all  --  anywhere             anywhere
ACCEPT     all  --  192.168.1.101        192.168.1.255
logaborted  tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            state RELATED,ESTABLISHED tcp flags:RST/RST
ACCEPT     all  --  anywhere             anywhere            state RELATED,ESTABLISHED
ACCEPT     icmp --  anywhere             anywhere            icmp destination-unreachable
ACCEPT     icmp --  anywhere             anywhere            icmp time-exceeded
ACCEPT     icmp --  anywhere             anywhere            icmp parameter-problem
nicfilt    all  --  anywhere             anywhere
srcfilt    all  --  anywhere             anywhere

Chain FORWARD (policy DROP)
target     prot opt source               destination
ACCEPT     all  --  anywhere             anywhere            state RELATED,ESTABLISHED
ACCEPT     icmp --  anywhere             anywhere            icmp destination-unreachable
ACCEPT     icmp --  anywhere             anywhere            icmp time-exceeded
ACCEPT     icmp --  anywhere             anywhere            icmp parameter-problem
srcfilt    all  --  anywhere             anywhere

Chain OUTPUT (policy DROP)
target     prot opt source               destination
ACCEPT     all  --  anywhere             anywhere
ACCEPT     all  --  anywhere             anywhere            state RELATED,ESTABLISHED
ACCEPT     icmp --  anywhere             anywhere            icmp destination-unreachable
ACCEPT     icmp --  anywhere             anywhere            icmp time-exceeded
ACCEPT     icmp --  anywhere             anywhere            icmp parameter-problem
s1         all  --  anywhere             anywhere

Chain f0to1 (3 references)
target     prot opt source               destination
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:65535 dpt:ipp state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp dpt:ipp
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:netbios-ns state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spts:1024:65535 dpt:netbios-ns
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spt:netbios-ns dpt:netbios-ns
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spts:1024:65535 dpt:netbios-dgm
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spt:netbios-dgm dpt:netbios-dgm
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:netbios-ssn state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spts:1024:65535 dpt:netbios-ssn
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:65535 dpt:6969 state NEW
ACCEPT     icmp --  anywhere             anywhere            icmp source-quench
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:65535 dpt:www state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:65535 dpt:webcache state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:65535 dpt:8008 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:65535 dpt:8000 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:65535 dpt:8888 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:microsoft-ds state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:65535 dpts:6881:6889 state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spt:netbios-ns dpts:1024:5999
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spt:netbios-ns dpt:netbios-ns
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spt:netbios-dgm dpt:netbios-dgm
ACCEPT     icmp --  anywhere             anywhere            icmp echo-reply
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp dpts:6970:7170
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:65535 dpts:6881:6889 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:65535 dpts:1024:65535 state NEW
logdrop    all  --  anywhere             anywhere

Chain f1to0 (1 references)
target     prot opt source               destination
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spt:netbios-ns dpts:1024:65535
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spt:netbios-ns dpt:netbios-ns
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spt:netbios-dgm dpt:netbios-dgm
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpts:6881:6889 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:ipp state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp dpt:ipp
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:domain state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp dpt:domain
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:smtp state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:netbios-ns state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spts:1024:5999 dpt:netbios-ns
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spt:netbios-ns dpt:netbios-ns
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spts:1024:5999 dpt:netbios-dgm
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spt:netbios-dgm dpt:netbios-dgm
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:netbios-ssn state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spts:1024:5999 dpt:netbios-ssn
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:1723 state NEW
ACCEPT     gre  --  anywhere             anywhere
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spts:1024:5999 dpt:time
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:time state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:kerberos state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:whois state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp dpt:43
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpts:6660:6669 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:ftp state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:https state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:ldap state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:522 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:1503 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:1720 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:1731 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpts:1024:65535 state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spts:1024:5999 dpts:1024:65535
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:5050 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:telnet state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpts:5000:5001 state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spts:1024:5999 dpt:5000
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:6969 state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp dpt:ntp
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:pop3 state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp dpts:5060:5061
ACCEPT     icmp --  anywhere             anywhere            icmp echo-request
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:554 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:7070 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:xmpp-client state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpts:5190:5193 state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp spts:1024:5999 dpts:5190:5193
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:imaps state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp dpt:3478
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:ssh state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:0:1023 dpt:ssh state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:3030 state NEW
ACCEPT     icmp --  anywhere             anywhere            icmp source-quench
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:pop3s state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:dict state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:8765 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:nntp state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp dpts:33434:33600
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:www state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:webcache state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:8008 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:8000 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:8888 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:printer state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:microsoft-ds state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpts:6881:6889 state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp dpt:4000
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:65535 dpts:1024:65535 state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:imap2 state NEW
ACCEPT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            udp dpt:imap2
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:rsync state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp dpt:gnutella-svc state NEW
ACCEPT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            tcp spts:1024:5999 dpt:1863 state NEW
logdrop    all  --  anywhere             anywhere

Chain logaborted (1 references)
target     prot opt source               destination
logaborted2  all  --  anywhere             anywhere            limit: avg 1/sec burst 10
LOG        all  --  anywhere             anywhere            limit: avg 2/min burst 1 LOG level warning prefix `LIMITED '

Chain logaborted2 (1 references)
target     prot opt source               destination
LOG        all  --  anywhere             anywhere            LOG level warning tcp-sequence tcp-options ip-options prefix `ABORTED '
ACCEPT     all  --  anywhere             anywhere            state RELATED,ESTABLISHED

Chain logdrop (4 references)
target     prot opt source               destination
logdrop2   all  --  anywhere             anywhere            limit: avg 1/sec burst 10
LOG        all  --  anywhere             anywhere            limit: avg 2/min burst 1 LOG level warning prefix `LIMITED '
DROP       all  --  anywhere             anywhere

Chain logdrop2 (1 references)
target     prot opt source               destination
LOG        all  --  anywhere             anywhere            LOG level warning tcp-sequence tcp-options ip-options prefix `DROPPED '
DROP       all  --  anywhere             anywhere

Chain logreject (0 references)
target     prot opt source               destination
logreject2  all  --  anywhere             anywhere

Chain logreject2 (1 references)
target     prot opt source               destination
REJECT     tcp  --  anywhere             anywhere            reject-with tcp-reset
REJECT     udp  --  anywhere             anywhere            reject-with icmp-port-unreachable
DROP       all  --  anywhere             anywhere

Chain nicfilt (1 references)
target     prot opt source               destination
RETURN     all  --  anywhere             anywhere
RETURN     all  --  anywhere             anywhere
RETURN     all  --  anywhere             anywhere
logdrop    all  --  anywhere             anywhere

Chain s0 (1 references)
target     prot opt source               destination
f0to1      all  --  anywhere             192.168.1.101
f0to1      all  --  anywhere             192.168.1.255
f0to1      all  --  anywhere             xtech
logdrop    all  --  anywhere             anywhere

Chain s1 (1 references)
target     prot opt source               destination
f1to0      all  --  anywhere             anywhere

Chain srcfilt (2 references)
target     prot opt source               destination
s0         all  --  anywhere             anywhere
Knute Johnson - 07 Dec 2005 16:57 GMT
>>>Assuming that multicasting uses UDP (is that correct?) I added a UDP port
>>>matching the port used in our multicasting test program via Guarddog.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> isn't working, perhaps I should take this question to a more appropriate
> forum rather than taking more of your time. If so, just let me know.)

Probably a good idea to ask somebody that knows something about
Guarddog, cause I don't have a clue.  You are right though, there is not
a chain in there with UDP port 12345.  I don't know if you are running
Fedora or not but there is a good list at
http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
They'll help even if you are running some other linux.

Signature

Knute Johnson
email s/nospam/knute/

rick - 07 Dec 2005 17:19 GMT
Knute,

Thank you for your help. I had no idea what the problem was and you've
given me the info needed to get a solution. I really appreciate it. FYI,
I'm using MEPIS, a Debian derivative.

Rick
Knute Johnson - 08 Dec 2005 02:37 GMT
> Knute,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Rick

Don't hesitate to ask questions anytime.  I haven't heard of MEPIS but
there may be a list specific to them too.

Signature

Knute Johnson
email s/nospam/knute/

Knute Johnson - 06 Dec 2005 17:46 GMT
> Knute,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Rick

You just need to open the port you are going to listen on.  So if you
are going to listen on port 12345 you need a chain on the INPUT side
that has an ACCEPT for UDP on that port.  The syntax of iptables is kind
of complicated so it might be simpler to use your Guarddog program to
open the UDP port. If that doesn't work, let me know and I'll fire up my
 Linux box and see what I can come up with.

Signature

Knute Johnson
email s/nospam/knute/

Gordon Beaton - 05 Dec 2005 07:07 GMT
> I'm trying to use Java multicasting on a single computer (Linux) for
> testing purposes and can't get it to work.

Your code works for me on a Fedora 2 machine (although I needed to
declare a DatagramSocket for the server).

All I can suggest is that you run ethereal or tcpdump and see if that
gives you any more information.

/gordon

Signature

[  do not email me copies of your followups  ]
g o r d o n + n e w s @  b a l d e r 1 3 . s e



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