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Java Forum / General / December 2005A good text editor for JAVA?
What is a good text-editor for the begining programmer in Java? eclipse is a good text editor (IMHO the best) but its much more than a text editor, and it can be hard for a beginner. Have a look to JText, and JPadPro Researching JText, I am seeing a lot of references to the Ericsson P800 (a cell phone?). But is JText still good for plain old Java programming? > eclipse is a good text editor (IMHO the best) but its much more than a > text editor, and it can be hard for a beginner. Have a look to JText, > and JPadPro > eclipse is a good text editor (IMHO the best) but its much more than a > text editor, and it can be hard for a beginner. Have a look to JText, > and JPadPro JPadPro really sucks hard. Don't use it. Makes the transition to a real IDE more difficult later. Like you need another opinion. Zero made the point the earlier that you should use a regular editor. I like his reasoning. However it probably wouldn't hurt to use a professional IDE right from the start. IntelliJ IDEA if you don't mind paying, Eclipse, NetBeans, or even JBuilder from Borland are all good IDE's. I personally use Eclipse. These are worth the effort to learn about. Don't learn a new editor unless you want to. I love vi but would never advocate it to someone who isn't motivated to learn it. Not worth the effort when you're learning a new programming language unless you really want to learn vi. You should have a pretty good idea and you can't go wrong with any of the these IDEs I mentioned. What you use is a matter of preference... you'll prefer what you're used to. Happy coding.  SignatureR. Scott Smith Slackware Linux on the job, at home, everywhere! What was Zero's point about using a regular editor? I can't find it. I use emacs. > What was Zero's point about using a regular editor? I can't find it. > I use emacs. basically my point is that newbies should use only syntax highlighting and automatic indentation, as opposed to automatic code completion, automatic code generation, and live error checking. These are very good to help you develop faster, but as new programmer the best way to learn is not to have an IDE complete & check your code for you, but to find your own mistakes and solve them. If you start using code completion right away you may type things like Integer.vaLueoF(15); and have your IDE correct it - you'll never even notice that you're doing it wrong. SignatureBeware the False Authority Syndrome >> What was Zero's point about using a regular editor? I can't find it. >> I use emacs. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > things like Integer.vaLueoF(15); and have your IDE correct it - you'll > never even notice that you're doing it wrong. Good point, but I think maybe live error checking might be good for newbies. I haven't done a focus group study or anything, but I imagine that seeing lots of compilation error messages will help newbies learn what they all mean, and not to panic so much when they see one. E.g. "variable i is not declare" and responding with "Yeah, I know, I was just about to declare it right now" as opposed to "OMG WTF?! I better post on the newsgroup asking how to fix this." - Oliver >> What was Zero's point about using a regular editor? I can't find >> it. I use emacs. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > things like Integer.vaLueoF(15); and have your IDE correct it - > you'll never even notice that you're doing it wrong. Arguably, though, it doesn't matter, because you'll almost always have access to an IDE. When I first tried to use Eclipse, I got frustrated and quickly went back to vim. Nowadays, its features are slick enough that I can't imagine using vim instead. I love live error checking. What's not to love? Yes, learning libraries is important, but I don't think remembering the spelling and capitalization of every method name is. So what? It's important to know that if I want to convert a String to an int, I can use the Integer class. Sure. But is it really so important to remember the exact method name? Why? I hesitate to recommend Eclipse to a newbie, but that's only because there's so much involved in starting even the simplest project, not because of things like code completion. Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > Yes, learning libraries is important, but I don't think remembering > the spelling and capitalization of every method name is. So what? > It's important to know that if I want to convert a String to an int, I > can use the Integer class. Sure. But is it really so important to > remember the exact method name? Why? I was more trying to say that the newby wouldn't learn that capitalization matters in java. And I believe having code completion hampers learning libraries. You could just type a reference variable, and select a method from the list. Last year I had to work on an old Windows NT machine, and on a Linux server installation. Neither was anywhere near strong enough to run an IDE like eclipse. It was a good thing I was used to coding java with nothing more than textpad and the command line compiler. SignatureBeware the False Authority Syndrome >> Yes, learning libraries is important, but I don't think remembering >> the spelling and capitalization of every method name is. So what? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > completion hampers learning libraries. You could just type a > reference variable, and select a method from the list. As opposed to opening a browser, loading the javadocs, looking up the type, and *then* selecting a method from the list, copying and pasting it. I agree that the javadoc approach is slower; it's not clear to me that it really forces any more learning. I think my difference of opinion stems from my belief that motivated individuals will learn; unmotivated individuals won't. It's possible you could claim that Eclipse and other high-powered IDEs can act as a crutch, allowing individuals to crawl along who might give up if they were forced to use more basic tools. Of course, you could use the same argument to support the idea that all programs should be written in assembler, or maybe machine code. > Last year I had to work on an old Windows NT machine, and on a Linux > server installation. Neither was anywhere near strong enough to > run an IDE like eclipse. It was a good thing I was used to coding > java with nothing more than textpad and the command line compiler. I agree that anyone who works with Java should have those skills. I don't think that means that we should eschew more powerful tools. Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > I agree that anyone who works with Java should have those skills. I > don't think that means that we should eschew more powerful tools. Absolutely! The self-righteous "do it yourself" answer is too myopic in this case. Programming isn't typing. It is about doing a lot of things at once, and typing is among the least important of them. Even if a programmer has to wait a couple seconds for code completion -- and obviously could have just typed the identifier name in that time period -- the task of writing code is going to be far more sustainable if that time can be used for thinking, resting, relaxing the wrist, or whatever. Signaturewww.designacourse.com The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere. Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer MindIQ Corporation >> I agree that anyone who works with Java should have those skills. >> I don't think that means that we should eschew more powerful tools. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > sustainable if that time can be used for thinking, resting, relaxing > the wrist, or whatever. I'll admit that for many years, I avoided Eclipse. Its features were clunky and slow. I felt the same about every other IDE I tried. The modern Eclipse is responsive enough that it finally feels like it's helping my productivity, not hindering it. Mostly. Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > As opposed to opening a browser, loading the javadocs, looking up the > type, and *then* selecting a method from the list, copying and pasting > it. > > I agree that the javadoc approach is slower; it's not clear to me that > it really forces any more learning. In my (admittedly limited) experience teaching non-computer-literates and my (rather extensive) experience in selfstudy, I have found that people tend to remember things better if they discover them themselves. Looking up a word in a dictionary is better than having the teacher tell you what it means. And I believe the same goes for looking it up in JavaDoc versus selecting from a list. I am not saying you should code using only vi or notepad - an IDE can be a wonderful tool, and it can save you a lot of time. I just think that when you're new to programming, using the documentation rather than developer tools can help you learn faster. Plus of course there's the point that many others here have made: learning to use an IDE is non-trivial. Combined with learning a language (and perhaps at the same time learning OO), it can be overwhelming. SignatureBeware the False Authority Syndrome > In my (admittedly limited) experience teaching > non-computer-literates and my (rather extensive) experience in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > believe the same goes for looking it up in JavaDoc versus selecting > from a list. That may be. I know that I've often visited a Javadoc page for a particular purpose, but ended up learning a lot more as I noticed interesting methods and read about them. That would be less likely using an IDE's selection features. > I am not saying you should code using only vi or notepad - an IDE > can be a wonderful tool, and it can save you a lot of time. I just [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > language (and perhaps at the same time learning OO), it can be > overwhelming. I definitely agree with that. Setting up Eclipse for my current project drove me nuts. Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html I completely agree with this, it is easy to write bad code in an IDE but have it conform, reformat, and refactor it for you to make it look better. > What is a good text-editor for the begining programmer in Java? VIM - http://www.vim.org/ SignatureKnute Johnson email s/nospam/knute/ In a previous article, Knute Johnson <nospam@ljr-2.frazmtn.com> said: >> What is a good text-editor for the begining programmer in Java? >VIM - http://www.vim.org/ Darn, you beat me to it. Don't forget to turn on smart indenting ("set si") and syntax highlighting ("syntax on"), and use ctags to generate cross references. http://ctags.sourceforge.net/ SignaturePaul Tomblin <ptomblin@xcski.com> http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ Real computer scientists despise the idea of actual hardware. Hardware has limitations, software doesn't. It's a real shame that Turing machines are so poor at I/O. > In a previous article, Knute Johnson <nospam@ljr-2.frazmtn.com> said: >>> What is a good text-editor for the begining programmer in Java? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cross references. > http://ctags.sourceforge.net/ VIM is only good for a beginner programmer if the they already knows how to use it. Otherwise they're going to fighting their editor as well as the compiler. Dan. SignatureDaniel Dyer http://www.dandyer.co.uk In a previous article, "Daniel Dyer" <dan@dannospamformepleasedyer.co.uk> said: >>> VIM - http://www.vim.org/ >VIM is only good for a beginner programmer if the they already knows how >to use it. Otherwise they're going to fighting their editor as well as >the compiler. Every editor has a learning curve. The important thing is whether it flattens out before you do. I've been using vi and now vim for 20 years now, and I've tried lots of others, and none is anywhere near powerful and flexible enough for me. (Ok, confession, I never learned emacs because 20 years ago you couldn't count on it being on the computer, and when you had 8 people sharing a MicroVax GPX, we'd get pretty damn upset when somebody fired up emacs.) Even more importantly for me, it's one of the few editors you can use without moving your hands off the home row of the keyboard, so it doesn't promote carpal tunnel syndrome. SignaturePaul Tomblin <ptomblin@xcski.com> http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ Oh, NT is reliable. You can count on it to keel over under just any circumstance. -- Rik Steenwinkel >> What is a good text-editor for the begining programmer in Java? > > VIM - http://www.vim.org/ I second that, but the OP should be aware that several days of use will be required before Vim becomes more productive than more intuitive editors. I used XEmacs for four years, with a fair amount of customization. More recently, I tried Eclipse for about three months. I always come back to Vim. It just gets more rewarding all the time. In fact, this discussion has inspired me: I think I'm finally going to give some money to those kids in Uganda! :help uganda >>> What is a good text-editor for the begining programmer in Java? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > will be required before Vim becomes more productive than more > intuitive editors. s/days/years =P (I love vim, but let's get real -- if you're not used to using it or vi, trying to use it can feel like jumping off a cliff) I have to confess that I'm now using eclipse for java development at work. But I use vim for any other conceivable editing task. And when eclipse annoys me by, for example, not supporting column-based editing, I use vim for the task. Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:23:34 -0700, "Monique Y. Mudama" <spam@bounceswoosh.org> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >s/days/years I found EMACs drove me nearly nuts. My editing CUA reflexes were well below conscious control. It was like being given a keyboard with all the keys randomly rearranged. Even the mouse worked a different way. Even its legendary programmability could not make up for that. Even if you do adjust, if you go back to another CUA editor I found the reflexes don't recover. I am "uniligual" as a typist. I can't be proficient on two editors for the same reason I can't rapidly type both QWERTY and DSK. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/dsk.html So I am all for finding a decent IDE that can also function as a generic text editor, and learn it thoroughly. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > I found EMACs drove me nearly nuts. My editing CUA reflexes were well > below conscious control. It was like being given a keyboard with all > the keys randomly rearranged. Even the mouse worked a different way. > Even its legendary programmability could not make up for that. Since emacs has a CUA mode, one could claim that its legendary programmability does in fact make up for that. /gordon Signature[ do not email me copies of your followups ] g o r d o n + n e w s @ b a l d e r 1 3 . s e >> I found EMACs drove me nearly nuts. My editing CUA reflexes were >> well below conscious control. It was like being given a keyboard [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > /gordon Okay, please tell me, what is CUA? Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > Okay, please tell me, what is CUA? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/CuaMode /gordon Signature[ do not email me copies of your followups ] g o r d o n + n e w s @ b a l d e r 1 3 . s e On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 10:12:07 -0700, "Monique Y. Mudama" <spam@bounceswoosh.org> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Okay, please tell me, what is CUA? see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/cua.html SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. >Since emacs has a CUA mode, one could claim that its legendary >programmability does in fact make up for that. I was using this back in the 90s. Either the CUA mode did not exist then or it was very different from all the other windows apps I was using. I came to hate EMACS. The passion has gradually diminished from lack of exposure to it. It was just too different from everything else. Even if I did learn to feel comfortable with it, even time I flipped between in and other programs it would be like flipping between left and right and drive. It is a Unix tool, and it is designed to be you only editing tool. I got a copy of SlickEdit which worked the same on Windows and Linux. I have been using it ever since. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > I got a copy of SlickEdit which worked the same on Windows and > Linux. I have been using it ever since. The standard editor at my last job was SlickEdit. I couldn't stand it. It seemed to love corrupting the tags database, among other things. But the real reason I abandoned it was that its vi emulation mode didn't emulate well enough. Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html >On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:23:34 -0700, "Monique Y. Mudama" ><spam@bounceswoosh.org> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >proficient on two editors for the same reason I can't rapidly type >both QWERTY and DSK. See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/dsk.html Sing it. I also have had trouble trying to become multilingual with regard to editors, though I'm a vim bigot who gets annoyed when she has to use .... maybe "CUA editors" is the right term. As you say, knowing which keys to use for common editing tasks becomes a reflex action, and trying to use something that uses different keys for the same tasks is not only irritating but also can seem to mess up the reflexes, which is a whole other level of irritation. However, I had an interesting exchange in comp.editors recently with someone who says that he uses lots of tools on lots of platforms and claims that *if you practice enough* you can develop the ability to switch back and forth seamlessly. But he claims that it takes a *lot* of practice. The thread is in comp.editors, subject line "GENERAL: Formatting text in Linux?", participants me and a Brian Masinick, if anyone wants to find it in the archives. (Sorry about not providing a URL or message IDs, but I'm not sure how to do that unambiguously.) >So I am all for finding a decent IDE that can also function as a >generic text editor, and learn it thoroughly. Or you could learn the editor that's also a shell, a newsreader, a psychotherapist, etc. (yes, I mean emacs :-) ), and use it for everything. If I hadn't started with vi and developed those reflexes .... | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor. > Or you could learn the editor that's also a shell, a newsreader, > a psychotherapist, etc. (yes, I mean emacs :-) ), and use it > for everything. If I hadn't started with vi and developed those > reflexes .... I remember trying vi in college and panicking when I saw that left-most column full of tildes... I went to Emacs for a while because the idea of an editor I could extend with Lisp, rather than with the Vim-specific language + C, seemed really attractive. I was also working at Sun at the time, and XEmacs is very popular there. I went back to Vim after the first wrist surgery. I don't plan ever to go back. Why people are still writing new editors, rather than customizing existing ones, is beyond me. The one thing I would really like to see in the vi-derivatives is support for proportional fonts. GVim looks terrible next to (e.g.) SlickEdit, even though I know how much more powerful GVim is... > I went back to Vim after the first wrist surgery. I don't plan ever > to go back. Why people are still writing new editors, rather than > customizing existing ones, is beyond me. One of my professors claimed that she never had problems with carpal tunnel until she started using a mouse. I personally find that using a mouse hurts my wrist pretty quickly; I use trackballs whenever possible, and even then try to do most things by keyboard, with a wrist pad. Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > I personally find that using a mouse hurts my wrist pretty quickly; I > use trackballs whenever possible, and even then try to do most things > by keyboard, with a wrist pad. Are you using (or rather, avoiding) those modern "mice" that actually look more like pregant rats ? Big bulky things that /force/ you to rest your palm on the beast's spine ? If so -- and if you are like me -- that might be the problem. With the old-style (shaped like a bar of soap) mice, I can guide the thing with my fingers; in particular, making precise movements just by flexing my fingers. With the new kind, that is impossible, so I have to make fine movements with my wrist/arm, and that becomes killingly painful very quickly. The "rats" are supposed to be more ergonomic, but not for me they aren't... -- chris >> I personally find that using a mouse hurts my wrist pretty quickly; >> I use trackballs whenever possible, and even then try to do most [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > very quickly. The "rats" are supposed to be more ergonomic, but not > for me they aren't... As near as I can tell, it's a problem for me for any mouse. But I use my whole hand for all mice, not just my fingers as you describe. Maybe my hand is smaller than yours? Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > As near as I can tell, it's a problem for me for any mouse. But I use > my whole hand for all mice, not just my fingers as you describe. > Maybe my hand is smaller than yours? Quite probably. Or your mouse is bigger. Or both. For comparison, if a mouse is small enough for me to use without pain then I can easily touch the desk with all five fingers on three sides of the mouse without touching the mouse at all. Of course, what works for me might be an absolute killer for you... Finding small, flat, mice is becoming almost impossible these days (presumably the profit margin is higher on rats) except for tiny USB things intended for laptop users who dislike touch-pads / track-balls / stupid-nipple-things (whatever they're called). -- chris On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:52:48 -0000, "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : > The "rats" are >supposed to be more ergonomic, but not for me they aren't... My partner has horrible neck/back spasms after long hours with a mouse. One idea I had was to find an ambidextrous mouse, and give each side of the neck a rest by alternating. Has anyone any experience with such a beast? SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:52:48 -0000, "Chris Uppal" ><chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> wrote, quoted or indirectly [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > each side of the neck a rest by alternating. Has anyone any > experience with such a beast? If I work on the computer long enough, I get similar problems ... but oddly enough, the muscles involved are my traps, right where neck joins to shoulder. And it's only the left side (mouse hand is on my right). Is this at all similar to what your partner describes? By amidextrous, do you mean simply one that can be gripped by either hand, or do you mean one where the buttons can easily be reversed? Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:11:45 -0700, "Monique Y. Mudama" <spam@bounceswoosh.org> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >If I work on the computer long enough, I get similar problems ... but >oddly enough, the muscles involved are my traps, right where neck >joins to shoulder. And it's only the left side (mouse hand is on my >right). Is this at all similar to what your partner describes? It runs from the back of the shoulder across the top of the back to a point an inch or two from the spine. The muscle goes like a tight cord, very easy to feel. It is usually on one side, though I don't recall which. My own ergonomic back problems have been pretty well fixed with two techniques. 1. a sort of giant rubber whoopy cushion on my chair.. The idea is I can't sit still on it. I have to wriggle slightly to stay balanced. It saves me from freezing up in one position. The wriggling is below ordinary conscious awareness. 2. making sure my chair adjust stays high up so that I am not reaching up to the keyboard. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > My own ergonomic back problems have been pretty well fixed with two > techniques. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > balanced. It saves me from freezing up in one position. The > wriggling is below ordinary conscious awareness. This sounds like a similar approach to the big bouncy-balls you can sit on. I have one of these, but my chiro actually told me not to sit on it for more than two hours a day. Good in small amounts, but overworks your muscles in large amounts. According to him. Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > One idea I had was to find an ambidextrous mouse, and give each > side of the neck a rest by alternating. Has anyone any experience > with such a beast? I've tried using a handedness-neutral mouse with my left hand, and find it as difficult as trying to write with a pen in my left hand. While it might give your right hand a rest (assuming you're right handed), expect your productivity to go down for a while. - Oliver >> I went back to Vim after the first wrist surgery. I don't plan ever >> to go back. Why people are still writing new editors, rather than [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > use trackballs whenever possible, and even then try to do most things > by keyboard, with a wrist pad. Plus working with the keyboard is just plain faster for many things. As an example on windows pressing Alt-F4 is 10 times faster than moving your hand to the mouse, moving the mouse to the close button, and clicking it. SignatureBeware the False Authority Syndrome > (Sorry about > not providing a URL or message IDs, but I'm not sure how to do that > unambiguously.) Generally what people seem to do is to find the corresponding thread in Google groups and just post an HTTP link to that. The URL will probably be of the form: http://groups.google.com/ [thread url] ? [query words you used to search for the thread] You can delete everything after and including the question mark to get rid of the highlighting before posting the link. - Oliver > Sing it. I also have had trouble trying to become multilingual with > regard to editors, though I'm a vim bigot who gets annoyed when she [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > same tasks is not only irritating but also can seem to mess up the > reflexes, which is a whole other level of irritation. I can't tell you the number of times I've been typing in a web form and lost it all when I hit "esc" vi-style ... (IIRC ctrl-z brings it back, if I don't panic and do something else in the meantime) Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html >However, I had an interesting exchange in comp.editors recently with >someone who says that he uses lots of tools on lots of platforms and >claims that *if you practice enough* you can develop the ability >to switch back and forth seamlessly. But he claims that it takes >a *lot* of practice. I suspect these people can pick up a new musical instrument quickly too. I am a bit of a klutz, but at the computer keyboard, I can surprise people with how fast I type. This comes from years and years and years of practice. I have gradually honed my speed with a special keyboard with disk shaped wells, and DSK layout. see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/dsk.html http://mindprod.com/jgloss/dsk.html#KINESIS Almost anything throws me off: 1. different keyboard same layout. It takes me 2 to 3 weeks to adjust to a different keyboard. 2. Someone watching me. 3. typing blind. Keying passwords is almost impossible, even though I don't look at he keyboard at all to type. Somehow the lack of visual feedback throws me for a loop. On the other hand I have encountered people who can flip back and for the between QWERTY and DSK. Somehow they can tell their finger reflexes which system to use. The key may be this. I do my edits and keying well below conscious control. Others may do them largely under conscious control. They can thus easily flip them. It may be the difference between flash readers like myself and subvocalising readers like most people who do everything more deliberately. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. >>However, I had an interesting exchange in comp.editors recently with >>someone who says that he uses lots of tools on lots of platforms and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I suspect these people can pick up a new musical instrument quickly >too. Well .... What this guy claims is that yes, he's pretty good now at picking up tools quickly, but that this is a result of years of practice, and that it is possible for anyone to develop this skill, with enough practice -- but it takes a *LOT* of practice. Some excerpts, from different posts of his: >> I have to tell you that it takes quite an investment, and that >> investment spans a very long time. >> I practice switching gears by switching gears. Yes, I know that >> sounds like something Yogi Berra (ex Yankee's catcher) would say, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> middle of time critical work. When time critical moments come, I >> am better prepared to use whatever is available. >> The investment is substantial, that's for sure. However, if you >> can make the investment in moments when you are not pressed for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> By using several of them, it is slightly easier to remember to >> switch gears or modes when using a different tool. I guess in some sense there's no way to refute this -- if you say "but it didn't work for me!" the response may just be "you need to practice more!" -- but to me it was helpful to have someone say "don't give up if you don't succeed at first, it takes longer than you might think." I also liked the comment about how it's really useful to practice when you're *not* in a pressure situation. More than once I've had to use MS Word or PowerPoint in a time-critical situation, and .... Fighting with one's tools, as a vim user will do when confronted with MS Office, just adds to the stress. Now, if you ask whether this has inspired me to invest time regularly in practicing with unfamiliar tools, well, the answer is "no". But it's on my list of stuff to do when I have more time .... (Ha.) >I am a bit of a klutz, but at the computer keyboard, I can >surprise people with how fast I type. This comes from years and years >and years of practice. "Years and years." That may be a critical point. [ snip ] >The key may be this. I do my edits and keying well below conscious >control. Others may do them largely under conscious control. They can >thus easily flip them. It may be the difference between flash readers >like myself and subvocalising readers like most people who do >everything more deliberately. Possibly. But AFAIK people *can* become fluent in more than one human language, so possibly if you practice enough you can become fluent with more than one set of computer tools too. It's just that the definition of "practice enough" may be outside what most people are willing and able to do? | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor. >I also liked the comment about how it's really useful to practice >when you're *not* in a pressure situation. More than once I've had >to use MS Word or PowerPoint in a time-critical situation, and .... >Fighting with one's tools, as a vim user will do when confronted >with MS Office, just adds to the stress. There are two different skills. 1. being able to use a great many tools 2. the ability to switch between two unfamiliar tools quickly. Partly what he is suggesting in preemptively developing skills on tools you have not been forced to use yet. Learning them while not under pressure is obviously easier. On the other hand, what he may been doing is crippling himself by refusing to let any of his skill become unconscious so that he is ALWAYS in beginner mode. You might develop an analogy from dating. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. >>I also liked the comment about how it's really useful to practice >>when you're *not* in a pressure situation. More than once I've had [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >refusing to let any of his skill become unconscious so that he is >ALWAYS in beginner mode. Ah. Yes, that's possible, now that I think about it. There's someone else in .... comp.text.tex, I think .... who claims to be bilingual in MS Word and emacs, and he sounds moderately clueful about both. But that's two tools, not dozens. >You might develop an analogy from dating. Not the best possible analogy to use in a technical newsgroup :-)? | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor. > There's someone else in .... comp.text.tex, I think .... who claims > to be bilingual in MS Word and emacs, and he sounds moderately clueful > about both. But that's two tools, not dozens. FWIW, I have vi keystrokes hardwired into my finger-tips, but nevertheless choose to use the emacs editing mode for bash/ksh. I've never encountered any interference between the two (any more than I encounter interference between the two major modes of vi). I also use Windows-style editors a lot (I'm typing into one now) and can switch /reasonably/ well between Windows-style and vi-style -- the hard bit is coming out of vi into Windows, when I tend to insert long sequences of kkkkkkk or jjjjjjjjj as I try to move the cursor around... But that wears off after a few minutes. I suspect the ability to adapt to different modalities may depend in large part on how strongly you feel the different modes/tools are /real/. Few people have difficulty adjusting their behaviour between -- say -- watching football match, and attending a church wedding. Similarly you don't fumble for the egg-whisk while repainting the flat. They are inherently different tasks/contexts, and you don't even think in the same way, let alone encounter interference between how you operate in one domain vs. another. I suspect that for people who (like me) find the inside of the computer to be a very real "place" (i.e. who buy deeply into the metaphors) will readily come to see working "inside" vi and working "inside" MS Word as inherently different in just the same way as a pew in a church is different from a seat in the stands at a football match. -- chris >> There's someone else in .... comp.text.tex, I think .... who claims >> to be bilingual in MS Word and emacs, and he sounds moderately clueful [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >interference between the two (any more than I encounter interference between >the two major modes of vi). Hm! Yes, I also use emacs editing mode in bash, and .... Well, every once in a while I get confused in vi, though rarely in bash. Interesting. >I also use Windows-style editors a lot (I'm typing >into one now) and can switch /reasonably/ well between Windows-style and >vi-style -- the hard bit is coming out of vi into Windows, when I tend to >insert long sequences of kkkkkkk or jjjjjjjjj as I try to move the cursor >around... But that wears off after a few minutes. :-) :-) The way I describe my attempts to become bilingual in vi and MS Word is "my Word documents were full of jjjjkkkk sequences, and vi beeped at me a lot." >I suspect the ability to adapt to different modalities may depend in large part >on how strongly you feel the different modes/tools are /real/. Few people [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >just the same way as a pew in a church is different from a seat in the stands >at a football match. Somewhat related .... I have a colleague who uses vi to write C programs, Eclipse to write Java programs, and word-processor-du-jour for prose. He says that he finds it fairly easy to keep them straight because he uses the different editors for different tasks. (Not sure why he thinks of C programming and Java programming as so different .... ) This is, of course, somewhat at odds with what I think of as the "traditional Unix" approach of having everything in text files and using the same editor for all. | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor. > I have a colleague who uses vi to write C programs, Eclipse to write > Java programs, and word-processor-du-jour for prose. He says that he [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "traditional Unix" approach of having everything in text files and > using the same editor for all. Which brings us full circle and (almost) back on topic for this thread ! Well done ;-) -- chris > I have a colleague who uses vi to write C programs, Eclipse to write > Java programs, and word-processor-du-jour for prose. He says that > he finds it fairly easy to keep them straight because he uses the > different editors for different tasks. (Not sure why he thinks of C > programming and Java programming as so different .... ) I sure think of them as different! Especially if you really mean C, not C++. Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:09:26 -0000, "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >I've never encountered any >interference between the two (any more than I encounter interference between >the two major modes of vi). My partner is like you. What must be frustrating for everyone is the ambidextrous people claiming the non-ambidextrous people just did not try hard enough, and the non-ambidextrous people claming the ambidextrous people are really just inept at both. The matter could be settled by experiment. It might be a genetically acquired skill like tongue curling. I have talked to ambidextrous people, they say that they don't have trouble because they see the tasks as fundamentally different. An analogy might be rolling up the windows in a car vs closing the windows in a house. What sort of world could accommodate non-ambidextrous people? It would allow you to configure your ENTIRE machine for how you wanted various low level editing behaviours to work, then EVERY program would comply. Similarly menus would use the same word for a function. Maybe even your microwave and TV remote would understand your preferences. See http://mindprod.com/projects/menuconfigurator.html SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:34:05 GMT, Roedy Green <my_email_is_posted_on_my_website@munged.invalid> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >>I've never encountered any >>interference between the two (any more than I encounter interference between >>the two major modes of vi). > >My partner is like you. She is also bilingual in accent. When she talks to me, she uses a Canadian accent, and when talking to her mom, a Alabaman one, including the unusual southern grammar. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. > On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:34:05 GMT, Roedy Green ><my_email_is_posted_on_my_website@munged.invalid> wrote, quoted or [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Canadian accent, and when talking to her mom, a Alabaman one, > including the unusual southern grammar. Odd. I grew up speaking both English and German. I have never been able to speak English with a German accent, or German with an American accent, though I can definitely recognize it. I think my mind has mapped the sounds to the languages, and I can't produce them in the "wrong" context. Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html >On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:09:26 -0000, "Chris Uppal" [ snip ] >What sort of world could accommodate non-ambidextrous people? > >It would allow you to configure your ENTIRE machine for how you wanted >various low level editing behaviours to work, then EVERY program would >comply. Similarly menus would use the same word for a function. vi-style editing in MS Word .... Nah, don't think that's going to happen. But it's entertaining to think about! [ snip ] | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor. >There's someone else in .... comp.text.tex, I think .... who claims >to be bilingual in MS Word and emacs, and he sounds moderately clueful >about both. But that's two tools, not dozens. The experiment that needs to be done it to measure X's SPEED at MS word and Emacs than challenge him to learn a third editor. Now go back and measure his proficiency in MS and Emacs. The experiment you really want is this: Take 99 people. Train 33 on Emacs, 33 on Word and 33 on both. Then measure each person's fastest speed on either editor. I conjecture the pure Emacs people should be most productive. I will conjecture that if two programs are sufficiently different, you can attain unconscious proficiency in both because conceptually the reflexes you develop don't overlap, analogously to playing both the piano and trombone. It seems to me that editors have unavoidable overlap at the most fundamental level -- insert, delete, replace, navigate. SignatureCanadian Mind Products, Roedy Green. http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching. >>There's someone else in .... comp.text.tex, I think .... who claims >>to be bilingual in MS Word and emacs, and he sounds moderately clueful [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >speed on either editor. I conjecture the pure Emacs people should be >most productive. Either of those would be an interesting experiment to perform. I wonder whether anyone has done it! It seems like some of those HCI folks would have done something along these lines .... >I will conjecture that if two programs are sufficiently different, you >can attain unconscious proficiency in both because conceptually the >reflexes you develop don't overlap, analogously to playing both the >piano and trombone. It seems to me that editors have unavoidable >overlap at the most fundamental level -- insert, delete, replace, >navigate. | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor. > The experiment you really want is this: Take 99 people. Train 33 on > Emacs, 33 on Word and 33 on both. Then measure each person's fastest > speed on either editor. I conjecture the pure Emacs people should be > most productive. More wild off-topicking, but this thread does seem to foster it ... Just how much do we think the (I)DE or typing-speed affects productivity? I know the former at least is task-dependent (if you're given a huge amount of legacy code the needs every method and class renamed, then Eclipsers will romp all over Notepadders), but in general, can it affect much? I'd guess not. I'd guess any difference attributable to a particular (I)DE is so small that it sinks below measurable tolerances into the noise of the (let's face it) astrologically inaccurate project planning within which we work. Well, I suppose there are some minimal basics. If you're given a new (I)DE, and you never learn how to delete, then you're in for some tough deadlines; but on the whole, I'd say productivity is far more weighted by requirements-clarity, and programmer and tester experience. That's probably why, "Use whatever (I)DE you're comfortable with," radiates such incontrovertable common sense: it gets you above the basics; you can delete, save, compile, run. There. DSCR. I've said it. .ed -- www.EdmundKirwan.com - Home of The Fractal Class Composition. > Just how much do we think the (I)DE or typing-speed affects > productivity? I'd say that a good (or bad) IDE is a lot more than just an editor, and that it's the other things that significantly affect productivity. If your speed of typing (with or without help from "Intellisense", etc[*]) is such that it is a significant bottleneck then I would say that one of the following apply: a) You are a /very/ slow typist (serious physical disability, such as having no hands). b) You are a /very/ fast thinking -- much, much, faster than anyone I've ever met. c) You are wasting your time doing writing repetitive code which can be and should be automated (or otherwise changed to remove the repetition). d) You are a very bad programmer, who programs without thinking even though thinking is required. BTW, one place where I do think that fast typing (and good editing features) make a real difference is that it becomes easier to document code appropriately. -- chris [*] Personally, I find auto-completion and similar intrusive popups, to be a hindrance rather than a help. > [*] Personally, I find auto-completion and similar intrusive popups, to be > a > hindrance rather than a help. Maybe in the long term, in that it's may be encouraging memory lost: I was in the middle of some Java method, and I had type "someMethodCall( " and then paused, because I knew I wanted to put the local variable I had declare some moments earlier there, but I couldn't remember the name of the variable. Well, Eclipse, being what it is, looked up the method definitions for "someMethodCall" and then found the arguments that all of its overloaded variants expected. It then looked at all variables that were visible from the location in the code I was located (local variables, publicly visible variables, fields from parents, etc.) it then looked at the type of all these variables, and climb their inheritance tree, cross-referencing that with the overloaded variants, and seeing which variables could actually be legal given the type-checking rules. It then displayed a pop up with my local variable, essentially asking me "Is this what you're looking for?" All of this before I had time to send the signals to the muscles that control my eyes to scroll up and read the variable declaration a few lines above. So I find auto-completion helpful, but it concerns me that I can't remember things that I looked at only a few moments ago. - Oliver > So I find auto-completion helpful, but it concerns me that I > can't remember things that I looked at only a few moments ago. Oh, I dunno. There's a hard limit to how many things a given person can keep in his/her "stack" at a time. You probably were juggling enough other data that you just didn't have room for that piece. Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > I was in the middle of some Java method, and I had type > "someMethodCall( " and then paused, because I knew I wanted to put the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > control my eyes to scroll up and read the variable declaration a few lines > above. If it could: always find /the/ correct identifier to insert, insert it without bothering me, do so in a way that I could learn when to expect it to do so -- i.e. fully deterministic algorithm that is simple enough for my /fingers/ to learn, then it would be useful to me. As it is, I get popup lists of irrelevancies that I'm expected to scan while I actually want to be using my eyes and brain for other things. For me, complete-on-demand is useful but autocomplete is just a nuisance. -- chris > If it could: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > is > just a nuisance. Yes, it's not perfect... But I believe you can keep typing even when that pop up is there, so perhaps you can "learn to ignore it" for those times where it isn't able to narrow down the possible suggestions to a single identifier? - Oliver > Yes, it's not perfect... > > But I believe you can keep typing even when that pop up is > there, so perhaps you can "learn to ignore it" for those times > where it isn't able to narrow down the possible suggestions to a > single identifier? I use it as a typing saver. To the extent that, even if I know what I need, I often purposely wait after typing the '.' so that I can then type the first few chars and hit enter. If it delayed me when typing, though, I wouldn't use it. Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html >>>However, I had an interesting exchange in comp.editors recently with >>>someone who says that he uses lots of tools on lots of platforms and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > practice, and that it is possible for anyone to develop this skill, > with enough practice -- but it takes a *LOT* of practice. After having studied 5 foreign languages (French, Spanish, German, Italian and Russian), I feel I have improved in my ability to learn a new language, even if I had no previous experience. I am also more able to identify if a language learning tool is going to be inefficient at instructing me - there are so many of those out there, that this was a necessary skill to learn. I truly believe I could have the basics of a new language down in as little as 100 hours, which would work out to about 10 days at 10 hours a day if I wasn't working or doing schoolwork. (Another 400 hours for basic mastery, expanded word depth, fluency and improved accent would be "helpful".) So this person's claim doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me. I believe every time you learn a new computer tool you will be a little quicker than before. The very first on you used you probably had to learn how to use the keyboard, the mouse, find out what a disk drive was, how windows worked. (Or as most people are probably not that young, maybe the mouse and windows came later.) The point is, that everytime you learn a new tool you have an expectation for what functionalities are supposed to be available. Sometimes you trip up on issues of semantics, but it takes less time that before. If you switch to an inferior tool you might waste a small amount of time looking for a tool that doesn't exist - but that doesn't happen too often. -- LTP :) >>>>However, I had an interesting exchange in comp.editors recently with >>>>someone who says that he uses lots of tools on lots of platforms and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >language learning tool is going to be inefficient at instructing me - there >are so many of those out there, that this was a necessary skill to learn. Agreed. I'm only fluent in one language but have studied two others, and the second "foreign" one was easier than the first. [ snip ] >So this person's claim doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me. I believe >every time you learn a new computer tool you will be a little quicker than >before. The very first on you used you probably had to learn how to use >the keyboard, the mouse, find out what a disk drive was, how windows worked. >(Or as most people are probably not that young, maybe the mouse and windows >came later.) I'm glad you put in that sentence in parentheses (though who knows about "most"). If I remember right, my first difficulty with computer use involved figuring out what keys on the keypunch did what. (")" and "," are not the same.) Ancient history, relatively speaking! >The point is, that everytime you learn a new tool you have an >expectation for what functionalities are supposed to be available. Agreed, and this applies to computer languages as well, no? But there's one more factor to consider: What happens when the new tool doesn't match your expectations about how such tools are supposed to work? For me with computer interfaces, it was trying to figure out Windows 95 after years of using mostly CLIs in the mainframe world. The whole "click on a file icon to launch a program with that file as input" thing seemed weird to me. An example from the computer-languages world might be trying to learn Lisp when all you know is procedural/o-o languages. But then the same "once you've done it once" thing applies at that level too: Once you figure out that not all tools, or languages, are based on exactly the same principles, that also makes it easier when you encounter one that's different from what you've used before. >Sometimes you trip up on issues of semantics, but it takes less time that >before. If you switch to an inferior tool you might waste a small amount of >time looking for a tool that doesn't exist - but that doesn't happen too >often. Or if you switch to a superior tool you might waste time because you don't know about its great features. Watching people new to vi try to accomplish anything .... Ouch. | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor. >>On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:23:34 -0700, "Monique Y. Mudama" >><spam@bounceswoosh.org> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >not providing a URL or message IDs, but I'm not sure how to do that >unambiguously.) [snip] It's all about how you want to use your time. I could use my time learning lots of different tools and editors or I could find a handful of tools and use my time to look at new apis/languages or work on open source projects, etc. Eric > On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:23:34 -0700, "Monique Y. Mudama" > <spam@bounceswoosh.org> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > below conscious control. It was like being given a keyboard with all > the keys randomly rearranged. Even the mouse worked a different way. Ah, you mean XEmacs - that's a horse of an entirely different colour. Emacs with an X interface tacked on top which worked via macros. When the mini-buffer got messed up and refused to exit, the X interface was rendered entirely useless. Emacs well earned it's alternate name of Eat Memory And Crash System, though. > Even its legendary programmability could not make up for that. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > So I am all for finding a decent IDE that can also function as a > generic text editor, and learn it thoroughly. I don't think you'll ever find and IDE which provides a really good text editor. For example, take what is arguably the most popular Java IDE, Eclipse, where are the macro facilities, or the ability to do even basic editing tasks like convert case, or capitilize? SignatureNigel Wade, System Administrator, Space Plasma Physics Group, University of Leicester, Leicester, LE1 7RH, UK E-mail : nmw@ion.le.ac.uk Phone : +44 (0)116 2523548, Fax : +44 (0)116 2523555 > I don't think you'll ever find and IDE which provides a really good text > editor. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > like > convert case, or capitilize? Not that I'm an Eclipse zealot or anything, but... Presumably you were using Eclipse in it's "Java Perspective" mode, which was intented to edit Java source code. In such a context, features like "captilize all the characters in the selection" would not be so useful; perhaps more useful would be "Rename this class, and make sure every reference to this class is updated appropriately" (which Eclipse DOES do). You're right though that if you want to use Eclipse as a plain text editor, there aren't many features or macros provided. However, there's no technical reason why someone couldn't write a plugin that provided all those features, perhaps calling it "Text Editing Perspective" or "XEmacs Perspective" if the user interface were made particularly XEmacs-like. I'm not sure how painful it would be to emulate vi's behaviour (I don't know how much abstraction you'd have to break to directly capture key-events), but it's probably possible as well. - Oliver >> I don't think you'll ever find and IDE which provides a really good text >> editor. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > perhaps more useful would be "Rename this class, and make sure every > reference to this class is updated appropriately" (which Eclipse DOES do). Comments? Javadocs? There are times when I want to capitalize or change from lower to upper or vice versa. SignatureNigel Wade, System Administrator, Space Plasma Physics Group, University of Leicester, Leicester, LE1 7RH, UK E-mail : nmw@ion.le.ac.uk Phone : +44 (0)116 2523548, Fax : +44 (0)116 2523555 >> Presumably you were using Eclipse in it's "Java Perspective" mode, >> which [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > vice > versa. Sorry, but this is going to be one big long run-on sentence: Uusually when I want to change the capitalization in a comment or JavaDoc, it is only one character that I want changed -- e.g. the first character of a sentence which was mistakenly not capitalized (perhaps because I had let go of the shift key too early or something) -- OR it is that I had not yet broken my habit of capitalizing all the characters in an abbreviation -- e.g., where KB stands for Knowledge Base and ID stands for Identification, naming a methid getKBManagerUserID() instead of getKbManagerUserId(), which requires an understanding of the English language to recognize word boundaries and so probably could not be done via a macro. - Oliver >> I don't think you'll ever find and IDE which provides a really good >> text editor. For example, take what is arguably the most popular [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > much abstraction you'd have to break to directly capture > key-events), but it's probably possible as well. I'm pretty sure there *is* a vi plugin for eclipse. It's not free in any sense, and I haven't tried it, but maybe it does what you're describing. I have been burned by supposedly 'vi compatible' modes so many times that I am loathe to spend money to try it. Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > (I love vim, but let's get real -- if you're not used to using it or > vi, trying to use it can feel like jumping off a cliff) I've used vi for years. I use vim when I'm on the command line and want to edit something, as the Linux desktop is a joke. It doesn't feel like I'm jumping off a cliff. It feels like I have landed. For small test programs, cat is my text entry tool of choice. Tom Hawtin SignatureUnemployed English Java programmer http://jroller.com/page/tackline/ >> (I love vim, but let's get real -- if you're not used to using it >> or vi, trying to use it can feel like jumping off a cliff) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > feel like I'm jumping off a cliff. It feels like I have landed. For > small test programs, cat is my text entry tool of choice. I'm not talking about how an experienced user feels about it. I feel exactly as you do -- but the first few times I tried vi, it terrified me. It seemed like any random keystroke would eat my file. (Typing this, and all my usenet postings, in vim, fwiw.) Signaturemonique Ask smart questions, get good answers: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html > I'm not talking about how an experienced user feels about it. I feel > exactly as you do -- but the first few times I tried vi, it terrified > me. It seemed like any random keystroke would eat my file. > > (Typing this, and all my usenet postings, in vim, fwiw.) The most terrifying moment after first using vi, IMHO, is the moment right after you realize there isn't a "File->Quit" menu option. And the moment during which you decide that vi is the dumbest program ever written is after you've rebooted the computer (to get out of that damn vi program), gone onto Google to lookup how quit vi, and find out that it's "ESC :q! RETURN". - Oliver > after you've rebooted the computer (to get out of that > damn vi program), gone onto Google to lookup how quit vi, and find out > that it's "ESC :q! RETURN". But naturally ! what /else/ could a reasonable person expect ? -- chris (Also a vi fan...) >>>> What is a good text-editor for the begining programmer in Java? >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > eclipse annoys me by, for example, not supporting column-based > editing, I use vim for the task. vi/vim are the only choice when it comes to making a quick change. You can have the edit done and the classes recompiled before the average GUI IDE has even managed to paste its splash screen all over your desktop. If you want a really good GUI text editor I've not found anything better than nedit. You can even select text and pipe it through a command line sequence, the result gets pasted in place of the selected text - power to the programmer. SignatureNigel Wade, System Administrator, Space Plasma Physics Group, University of Leicester, Leicester, LE1 7RH, UK E-mail : nmw@ion.le.ac.uk Phone : +44 (0)116 2523548, Fax : +44 (0)116 2523555 This I definitly agree with. For beginner you want a good ext editor, not and IDE :) My personal opinion ofcourse. It's all about learning, and eclipse can hide |
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