Windows Vista. Ponderring....

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Thomas G. Marshall - 20 Nov 2005 20:20 GMT

Trying to get a jump start on any issues.

Has anyone thought through if there will be any specific problems to
overcome with any java implementation (mustang or not) on the new windows
operating system?

1. Specifically, Vista seems to be attempting to truly solve the dpi/font
problem, that was never properly implemented in the first place, largely for
backward compatible reasons. Is this in any way going to be something that
PC implementations of java/JVM will bump into?

2. The new user interface is supposed to be a huge improvement. Here is a
screen shot of netbeans running swing on mustang:

http://weblogs.java.net/blog/chet/images/NB42onVista.PNG

Does anyone know of any particular problem this may or maynot cause?

Thanks,

Thomas

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Andrew Thompson - 21 Nov 2005 01:03 GMT

> 2. The new user interface is supposed to be a huge improvement.

According to who?

>...Here is a
> screen shot of netbeans running swing on mustang:
>
> http://weblogs.java.net/blog/chet/images/NB42onVista.PNG

Transparent borders (rolls eyes) WTF can't they spend their time
dereasing the memory footprint, ar making it faster than syrup.

And IMO, the transparent borders are odd, ugly and useless,
while the rest of the PLAF is ordinary and simple (I.E. 'OK',
but nothing special).

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Thomas G. Marshall - 21 Nov 2005 03:34 GMT

Andrew Thompson said something like:

>> 2. The new user interface is supposed to be a huge improvement.
>
> According to who?

Microsoft. ;)

>> ...Here is a
>> screen shot of netbeans running swing on mustang:
>>
>> http://weblogs.java.net/blog/chet/images/NB42onVista.PNG
>
> Transparent borders (rolls eyes) WTF

...[yada]...

Yeah, my posting of the mustang/netbeans/vista combination was just to show
an example. My response to it was a little like yours: "eh."

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Oliver Wong - 22 Nov 2005 15:55 GMT

> Transparent borders (rolls eyes) WTF can't they spend their time
> dereasing the memory footprint, ar making it faster than syrup.

I haven't been keeping up with the rumors flying around, but from what I
hear, the new graphics engine will leverage the 3D accelerators on your
videocard to improve responsiveness. The average card is just so damn
powerful, that once they've committed to using 3D acceleration, they get a
lot of things (like translucency, anti aliasing, shadows, etc.) for "free".

- Oliver

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Thomas G. Marshall - 22 Nov 2005 16:26 GMT

Oliver Wong said something like:

>> Transparent borders (rolls eyes) WTF can't they spend their time
>> dereasing the memory footprint, ar making it faster than syrup.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> 3D acceleration, they get a lot of things (like translucency, anti
> aliasing, shadows, etc.) for "free".

Not sure about why that's new. They are supposed to already have full 3D
acceleration at their disposal if they wanted.

I know that they've been experimenting with a 3D windows for years.
"Farenheight" I think they call it. But they haven't yet masterred a
sensible user interface. Not like all of this hasn't been thought through
for over 20+ years already.

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Oliver Wong - 23 Nov 2005 18:45 GMT

> Oliver Wong said something like:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> sensible user interface. Not like all of this hasn't been thought through
> for over 20+ years already.

My understanding is that a lot of the visual effects in XP (e.g. soft
shadows, alpha blending, etc.) are currently implemented in software, and in
Vista, it'll be done in hardware.

- Oliver

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Thomas G. Marshall - 23 Nov 2005 20:31 GMT

Oliver Wong said something like:

>> Oliver Wong said something like:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> in
> Vista, it'll be done in hardware.

That's just what confuses me. The way the software is layered, it already
uses 3D hardware if it happens to be there, and software if it isn't. I
wonder what they're trying to say in this. Do you have a link?

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Oliver Wong - 24 Nov 2005 16:31 GMT

"Thomas G. Marshall" <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com>
wrote in message >> My understanding is that a lot of the visual effects
in XP (e.g. soft

>> shadows, alpha blending, etc.) are currently implemented in software, and
>> in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> uses 3D hardware if it happens to be there, and software if it isn't. I
> wonder what they're trying to say in this. Do you have a link?

http://msdn.microsoft.com/windowsvista/experience/

According to this page, the software will still "try to use hardware and
otherwise fall back on software", but what I did notice that is new is that
the rendering engine is apparently now vector based instead of pixel based,
implying the potential for infinite resolution:

<quote> For example, Windows Presentation Foundation's vector-based
rendering engine enables applications to scale to take advantage of high-dpi
monitors without requiring extra work on the part of the developer or user.
Similarly, when Windows Presentation Foundation detects a video card that
supports hardware acceleration, it takes advantage of it.</quote>

Also, according to Wikipedia ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista#Graphics_hardware_requirements

... you can switch between the classic looks ("Classic (win2000)" and "To Go
(winxp)"), and the new looks ("Aero Express" and "Aero Glass"), but
apparently the "high quality new look" (Aero Glass) requires 3D
acceleration, as opposed to the other looks which can fall back on software.

Another Wikipage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Presentation_Foundation

Apparently, in Vista, DirectX will be "always on", as opposed to only on
during games, as the new GUI is built on top of DirectX.

- Oliver

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Thomas G. Marshall - 25 Nov 2005 05:40 GMT

Oliver Wong said something like:

...[rip]...

> Apparently, in Vista, DirectX will be "always on", as opposed to only
> on
> during games, as the new GUI is built on top of DirectX.

Ok thanks. Also, specifically here, I was surprised:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct3D

This flies in the face of what I previously understood to be true (which
apparently isn't). It is /not/ historically the case that a library call to
something 3D that is not supported in hardware is simply done in software,
like I thought.

I think that I may be confusing ms's 2D library layers with
Direct3D/Direct3D10. Thanks.

In any case, my pondering still stands: Is there anything that java will
have to adapt to here?

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Thomas G. Marshall - 22 Nov 2005 00:47 GMT

Thomas G. Marshall said something like:

> Trying to get a jump start on any issues.

wow, don't everybody talk at once.

some days.... ;)

...[rip]...

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Steve Horsley - 28 Nov 2005 20:58 GMT

> Trying to get a jump start on any issues.
>
> 2. The new user interface is supposed to be a huge improvement. Here is a
> screen shot of netbeans running swing on mustang:
>
> http://weblogs.java.net/blog/chet/images/NB42onVista.PNG

Yuk! The fonts are as naff as ever, aren't they?

Steve

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Roedy Green - 29 Nov 2005 02:45 GMT

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:58:37 +0000, Steve Horsley
<steve.horsley@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
who said :

>> http://weblogs.java.net/blog/chet/images/NB42onVista.PNG
>>
>Yuk! The fonts are as naff as ever, aren't they?

The hand-typed simulation is getting better. Look at the magazine
ads. That's what's cool.

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http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.

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Windows Vista. Ponderring....

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