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Java Forum / General / November 2005

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What does this mean??

Thread view: 
freesoft_2000 - 01 Nov 2005 19:28 GMT
Hi everyone,

            I have two rather silly questions so please bear with me

what does the below code
mean

Rectangle alloc = (a instanceof Rectangle) ? (Rectangle) a :
a.getBounds();

Could someone translate the above code into simple java codings so i can
understand it

And finally what does the below code mean

x*= 0.5

Could someone also translate the above code into simple java codings so i
can understand it

I know these quenstions may sound stupid but please bear with me

Thank You

Yours Sincerely

Richard West
VisionSet - 01 Nov 2005 19:43 GMT
> Rectangle alloc = (a instanceof Rectangle) ? (Rectangle) a :
> a.getBounds();
>
> Could someone translate the above code into simple java codings so i can
> understand it

Rectangle alloc ;
if (a instanceof Rectangle) alloc = (Rectangle) a;
else alloc = a.getBounds();

> And finally what does the below code mean
>
> x*= 0.5

x = x * 0.5;

--
Mike W
isamura - 02 Nov 2005 16:48 GMT
: > Rectangle alloc = (a instanceof Rectangle) ? (Rectangle) a :
: > a.getBounds();
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: if (a instanceof Rectangle) alloc = (Rectangle) a;
: else alloc = a.getBounds();

I didn't think this seemingly innocent question would stir up such lively reactions...

Actually I appreciate this helpful and more direct response. However, the question does bring up
some interesting points (for me anyway).

1. I don't see the benefits of using the first form syntax, in terms of code maintenance and
readability.

2. Why two forms that says the same thing? Perhaps the javac has an inferior complex and feels
better that it can process a more "advanced" form syntax <grin>?

3. The second form is more verbose, but so much easier to understand. I think the KISS principle
applies here and I will always use the second form.

my 2 cents

.K
Timbo - 02 Nov 2005 17:02 GMT
> : > Rectangle alloc = (a instanceof Rectangle) ? (Rectangle) a :
> : > a.getBounds();
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I didn't think this seemingly innocent question would stir up such lively reactions...

Nor should it!

> Actually I appreciate this helpful and more direct response. However, the question does bring up
> some interesting points (for me anyway).
>
> 1. I don't see the benefits of using the first form syntax, in terms of code maintenance and
> readability.

For the example in the original post, I agree with you here.
However, other times, I find the short hand quite useful. Consider
trying to find the absolute value of an integer, i:

 final int abs = i > 0 ? i : -i;

I think this is nicer than the alternative:
  final int abs;
  if (i > 0) {
    abs = i;
  }
  else {
    abs = -i;
  }

or even the more compect
  final int abs;
  if (i > 0) abs = i;
  else abs = -i;

> 2. Why two forms that says the same thing? Perhaps the javac has an inferior complex and feels
> better that it can process a more "advanced" form syntax <grin>?

A lot of programming language syntax is redundant. 'for' loops can
be expressions using 'while', but both are useful. I guess it's
all about giving the programmer options. If you don't like one
way, you can do it another.
isamura - 02 Nov 2005 19:38 GMT
: > : > Rectangle alloc = (a instanceof Rectangle) ? (Rectangle) a :
: > : > a.getBounds();
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
:    if (i > 0) abs = i;
:    else abs = -i;

The following would also work,

final int abs = i;
if (i < 0) abs = -i;

I will check the docs but for abs, it might be better if the following is available,

final int abs = i.abs(); // or perhaps Integer.abs(i);

: > 2. Why two forms that says the same thing? Perhaps the javac has an inferior complex and feels
: > better that it can process a more "advanced" form syntax <grin>?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: all about giving the programmer options. If you don't like one
: way, you can do it another.

I don't agree completely here since both for and while have their specific uses, whereas the if
syntax forms don't.

.K
zero - 02 Nov 2005 21:45 GMT
>: > 2. Why two forms that says the same thing? Perhaps the javac has an
>: > inferior complex and feels better that it can process a more
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> .K

What specific use do you see for a for loop, that couldn't be just as easily done
with a while loop?  Or, an even more obvious example, why would a programming
language need do...while?  And to draw it into the absurd, why do you need the *
for multiplication?  You could just as well do it with a for - sorry, I meant
while :-p - loop using only addition.  In fact, if I'm not mistaken that's what
happens internally in the CPU anyway.

All these questions have the same answer: programmer convenience.
Thomas G. Marshall - 05 Nov 2005 17:22 GMT
zero coughed up:

>>>> 2. Why two forms that says the same thing? Perhaps the javac has an
>>>> inferior complex and feels better that it can process a more
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> I'm
> not mistaken that's what happens internally in the CPU anyway.

You are mistaken.  Multiplication is not hardwired as successive additions,
and I have no idea why you would think that it would be.

> All these questions have the same answer: programmer convenience.

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Roedy Green - 05 Nov 2005 17:44 GMT
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 16:22:56 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
<tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>You are mistaken.  Multiplication is not hardwired as successive additions,
>and I have no idea why you would think that it would be.

Conceptually it is done with a series of shifts and adds, it is just
that it all happens in parallel, right?
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Roedy Green - 05 Nov 2005 17:55 GMT
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 16:44:52 GMT, Roedy Green
<my_email_is_posted_on_my_website@munged.invalid> wrote, quoted or
indirectly quoted someone who said :

>Conceptually it is done with a series of shifts and adds, it is just
>that it all happens in parallel, right?

For an unsigned multiply a x b

You shift a every possible number of bits left 0 .. 31
If the corresponding bit in b is on, you include that shifted quantity
in the parallel adder.

The thing that takes the time is propagating carries
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Thomas G. Marshall - 06 Nov 2005 04:51 GMT
Roedy Green coughed up:
> On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 16:22:56 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
> <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Conceptually it is done with a series of shifts and adds, it is just
> that it all happens in parallel, right?

This is not what zero suggested.  Read again.

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Roedy Green - 06 Nov 2005 09:01 GMT
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 04:51:50 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
<tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>This is not what zero suggested.  Read again.

He said this happens "in the CPU" implying it was a hardware feature,
which is correct. Another plausible  interpretation is that in byte
code, multiplies are handled with a shift and add loop. That is not
correct.
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zero - 06 Nov 2005 12:13 GMT
> On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 04:51:50 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
> <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> code, multiplies are handled with a shift and add loop. That is not
> correct.

Yes I was talking about hardware.  I don't know much about modern hardware
or CPUs, but I seem to remember a class in the distant past about computer
architecture, where it was said that multiplying was done by consecutive
additions.
Thomas G. Marshall - 06 Nov 2005 16:17 GMT
zero coughed up:

>> On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 04:51:50 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
>> <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> architecture, where it was said that multiplying was done by consecutive
> additions.

You remember wrong.

When I went to school for computer science we had to take a substantial
amount of electrical engineering.  The courseload for the class just beyond
our required classes had the engineers building a 32 bit multiplier out of
ttl hardware.  The algorithm for n bits * n bits is of order n*n.  O(n*n).

I've also implemented 32 and 64 bit multiplication algorithms on 8 bit
machines that had no such concept.  You just don't do it by successive
additions, because you don't have to.

Can you imagine the multiplication of two large numbers?  It could possibly
take a /very/ long time by cpu standards.  They would never be able to
manage it in the handful of cycles that they do.  64 bits could handle 2
32bit numbers multiplied.  That would be an iteration of 4 billion in
microcode or other chipset hardware!!!!!!

Read the section under "Long Multiplication".

http://www.answers.com/topic/multiplication-algorithm

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the minute something is charged to my account?

zero - 06 Nov 2005 19:22 GMT
> You remember wrong.
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> http://www.answers.com/topic/multiplication-algorithm

Ok I yield.  You're right, I'm wrong.
Thomas G. Marshall - 06 Nov 2005 20:33 GMT
zero coughed up:

>> You remember wrong.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Ok I yield.  You're right, I'm wrong.

No, no.  Say it again!  Say it again!

Yield again dammit!

LOL.  Seriously though, I'm sorry for being AR.

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relentlessly for an answer before posting in usenet.  Newsgroups are for
discussions.  Discussions do /not/ necessitate prior research.  If you are
bothered by someone asking a question without taking time to look something
up, simply do not respond.

Roedy Green - 06 Nov 2005 23:02 GMT
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 16:17:18 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
<tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>Can you imagine the multiplication of two large numbers?  It could possibly
>take a /very/ long time by cpu standards.  They would never be able to
>manage it in the handful of cycles that they do.  64 bits could handle 2
>32bit numbers multiplied.  That would be an iteration of 4 billion in
>microcode or other chipset hardware!!!!!!

Yes and an ordinary 32x32 bit multiply is done in hardware with
parallel shifts and  parallel adds, is it not?  These fancy algorithms
such as karatsuba only apply for large BigInteger calculations.
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Thomas G. Marshall - 06 Nov 2005 16:17 GMT
Roedy Green coughed up:
> On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 04:51:50 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
> <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> code, multiplies are handled with a shift and add loop. That is not
> correct.

Neither is the whole of what he said Roedy!  He said this:

       Zero said:
       And to draw it into the absurd, why do
       you need the * for multiplication?  You
       could just as well do it with a for - sorry,
       I meant while  - loop using only addition.
       In fact, if I'm not mistaken that's what
       happens internally in the CPU anyway.

He said a loop using *only addition*.

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Roedy Green - 06 Nov 2005 23:08 GMT
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 16:17:18 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
<tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>He said a loop using *only addition*.

He said that but he also said loop which implies some extra minor
stuff.  The extra minor stuff he forgot about is the shift and test.

The point I am making is the source he originally heard this from was
likely correct. It is just he did not remember the WHOLE story. He
just remembered that part of the algorithm was a mess of additions.

His error would be akin to forgetting to shift over one for each line
when doing manual decimal multiply.
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Thomas G. Marshall - 07 Nov 2005 01:11 GMT
Roedy Green coughed up:
> On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 16:17:18 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
> <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> He said that but he also said loop which implies some extra minor
> stuff.  The extra minor stuff he forgot about is the shift and test.

That's hardly "some minor stuff".  That shift and test are the small binary
multiplies that are critical parts of the algorithm!  That's like saying
that a sort routine is a comparison plus some minor stuff.

His notion was that it was merely cyclical addition.  What he remembers,
from whom, and why, are of no consequence or value, much like our
conversation here.

I'm done with this diversion.

Signature

It's time for everyone to just step back, take a deep breath, relax, and
stop
throwing hissy fits over crossposting.

Timbo - 03 Nov 2005 11:07 GMT
> : > : > Rectangle alloc = (a instanceof Rectangle) ? (Rectangle) a :
> : > : > a.getBounds();
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> final int abs = i;
> if (i < 0) abs = -i;

No it wouldn't, because 'abs' is declared as final, so you can
only assign a value to it once.

> I will check the docs but for abs, it might be better if the following is available,
>
> final int abs = i.abs(); // or perhaps Integer.abs(i);

I'm sure there is a library method for calculating the absolute
value of a  number, but I just wanted a simple example. I would
almost bet that any such library method uses the shorthand instead
of the if-then-else version.

> : > 2. Why two forms that says the same thing? Perhaps the javac has an inferior complex and feels
> : > better that it can process a more "advanced" form syntax <grin>?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I don't agree completely here since both for and while have their specific uses, whereas the if
> syntax forms don't.

I disagree. A for loop is shorthand for a while loop. There is
nothing you can do in a for that cannot be done using while, but
still, you would have a hard time finding a Java programming that
doesn't use both.

What's more, the ternary-if statement is an expression, whereas
the if-then-else form is a statement, and so has no value. So
there is really more justification for this than there is for
'for' loops.
Roedy Green - 03 Nov 2005 12:21 GMT
>I'm sure there is a library method for calculating the absolute
>value of a  number, but I just wanted a simple example. I would
>almost bet that any such library method uses the shorthand instead
>of the if-then-else version.

  public static int abs(int a) {
       return (a < 0) ? -a : a;

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Thomas G. Marshall - 03 Nov 2005 15:16 GMT
Roedy Green coughed up:

>> I'm sure there is a library method for calculating the absolute
>> value of a  number, but I just wanted a simple example. I would
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>   public static int abs(int a) {
>        return (a < 0) ? -a : a;

Perhaps not in float/double land.  Maybe there are NaN and +oo and -oo to
worry about, and their specific consequences.
Roedy Green - 03 Nov 2005 15:46 GMT
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:16:42 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
<tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>Perhaps not in float/double land.  Maybe there are NaN and +oo and -oo to
>worry about, and their specific consequences.

Turns out not:

 /**
    * Returns the absolute value of a <code>double</code> value.
    * If the argument is not negative, the argument is returned.
    * If the argument is negative, the negation of the argument is
returned.
    * Special cases:
    * <ul><li>If the argument is positive zero or negative zero, the
result
    * is positive zero.
    * <li>If the argument is infinite, the result is positive
infinity.
    * <li>If the argument is NaN, the result is NaN.</ul>
    * In other words, the result is the same as the value of the
expression:
    *
<p><code>Double.longBitsToDouble((Double.doubleToLongBits(a)&lt;&lt;1)&gt;&gt;&gt;1)</code>
*
    * @param   a   the argument whose absolute value is to be
determined
    * @return  the absolute value of the argument.
    */
   public static double abs(double a) {
       return (a <= 0.0D) ? 0.0D - a : a;
   }

the interesting thing is the

0.0D -a
not just -a

Where's Patricia to explain the conditions those are not equivalent?

Someone could find out by experiment. there are not that many quirky
double literals.

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Thomas G. Marshall - 03 Nov 2005 16:59 GMT
Roedy Green coughed up:
> On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:16:42 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
> <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Turns out not:

Actually, I know that code (the one you quote below) already, before I
posted.  When you said "any such library method", I was think also of C
(native code), but more so for languages that are far more platform specific
and as such tied to the vaguaries of their chipset.

>  /**
>     * Returns the absolute value of a <code>double</code> value.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>     * In other words, the result is the same as the value of the
> expression:

...[rip]...

> the interesting thing is the
>
> 0.0D -a
> not just -a
>
> Where's Patricia to explain the conditions those are not equivalent?

-a is a -1 * a.  Perhaps this is to avoid the multiply.  Perhaps for speed
issues, but perhaps also to maintain the NaN, +0, -0, as explained in the
comments?

For the record, the integer variants use unary -a.

> Someone could find out by experiment. there are not that many quirky
> double literals.
Thomas G. Marshall - 04 Nov 2005 19:07 GMT
Thomas G. Marshall coughed up:
> Roedy Green coughed up:
>> On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:16:42 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> -a is a -1 * a.

The second "a" is a casualty of war and is an article, not a variable.  What
I should have written to be clear is:

"-b" is a "-1 * b"

> Perhaps this is to avoid the multiply.  Perhaps for speed
> issues, but perhaps also to maintain the NaN, +0, -0, as explained in the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> Someone could find out by experiment. there are not that many quirky
>> double literals.

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Timbo - 03 Nov 2005 15:57 GMT
>>I'm sure there is a library method for calculating the absolute
>>value of a  number, but I just wanted a simple example. I would
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>    public static int abs(int a) {
>         return (a < 0) ? -a : a;

I knew it! ;)
hilz - 04 Nov 2005 21:25 GMT
> :   final int abs = i > 0 ? i : -i;
> :
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> final int abs = i;
> if (i < 0) abs = -i;

java.lang.Math.abs(...)
Thomas G. Marshall - 04 Nov 2005 22:29 GMT
hilz coughed up:
>>>   final int abs = i > 0 ? i : -i;
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> java.lang.Math.abs(...)

Are you following this thread at all???????????

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hilz - 05 Nov 2005 00:26 GMT
> hilz coughed up:
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Are you following this thread at all???????????

not really
Roedy Green - 03 Nov 2005 02:02 GMT
>1. I don't see the benefits of using the first form syntax, in terms of code maintenance and
>readability.

It takes fewer keystrokes.  Keep your eye out for the places Sun uses
it. You might use it like this:

String message = "Please put the apple" + (appleCount> 0  ? "s":"") +
" on the table.";

In the IF syntax you would write that perhaps as:

 String message = "Please put the apple";
 if (appleCount > 0 )
  {
 message "= "s";
 }
message += "  on the table.";

The ternary syntax has the following advantages.

1. it suggest the logic is for some trivial adjustment, not something
profoundly relevant to the algorithm.

2. it can fit on one line instead of six.

3. it causes one StringBuffer to be created instead of two in byte
code.

4. You can tuck it in the middle of an expression. You can avoid
creating extra variables or repeating code.

The biggest problem with it is newbies can't read it.  Once you get
used to it though, it is no harder to read than an IF.

The second biggest problem is both true and false are converted to
common type before assignment. That does not happen with IF.
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Thomas G. Marshall - 04 Nov 2005 19:14 GMT
Roedy Green coughed up:

...[rip]...

> The ternary syntax has the following advantages.
>
> 1. it suggest the logic is for some trivial adjustment, not something
> profoundly relevant to the algorithm.

No.  I'll leave it at that.

...[rip]...

> 4. You can tuck it in the middle of an expression.

YES!  But there is an additional notion:

4b. It groups right to left for interesting looking expressions:

Take a look at this:

       car = (a==1) ? FORD :
             (a==2) ? CHEVY :
             (a==3) ? HONDA :
                      DEFAULT;

{chucle}.

...[rip]...

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Andrew Thompson - 01 Nov 2005 19:44 GMT
> I know these quenstions may sound stupid ..

Only because they are.  But at least that is a start.
Once you can accurately identify stupid questions,
it will(/should) help you not ask them.

> ..but please bear with me

What motivation is there to give you the patience
normally reserved for Java noobs, when you fail to
post questions to the group* best suited for those
new to Java/usenet/formulating intelligent questions?

* You should know the group.  I have mentioned it to
you on earlier occasions.
Ted Present - 01 Nov 2005 21:10 GMT
> * You should know the group.  I have mentioned it to
> you on earlier occasions.

As another java "noob," could you tell me what group that might be?

~~Ted Present
SteveB - 01 Nov 2005 21:17 GMT
> > * You should know the group.  I have mentioned it to
> > you on earlier occasions.
>
> As another java "noob," could you tell me what group that might be?

comp.lang.java.help
Ted Present - 01 Nov 2005 21:36 GMT
Thanks I'll take a look.  I've a bit of java experience, but being
self-taught, there are a few simple things that I often get caught up over.
This group has helped befire, but much of it was way above me.

~~Ted Present

>> > * You should know the group.  I have mentioned it to
>> > you on earlier occasions.
>>
>> As another java "noob," could you tell me what group that might be?
>
> comp.lang.java.help
SteveB - 01 Nov 2005 22:08 GMT
> Thanks I'll take a look.  I've a bit of java experience, but being
> self-taught, there are a few simple things that I often get caught up over.
> This group has helped befire, but much of it was way above me.

I'm in the same boat.
zero - 02 Nov 2005 00:13 GMT
> Thanks I'll take a look.  I've a bit of java experience, but being
> self-taught, there are a few simple things that I often get caught up
> over. This group has helped befire, but much of it was way above me.

This is a programmer-to-programmer group, although a lot of newbies do come
here for questions.  If things here go above your head don't get
discouraged.  Other groups (like clj.help) might answer in more
understandable terms, but you'll learn more by asking questions there and
lurking here.  After a while, things will start to make sense.

And btw most people here don't understand everything either.  Everyone has
their speciality, and everyone encounters threads they can't contribute in,
for whatever reason.
Andrew Thompson - 01 Nov 2005 21:23 GMT
>>* You should know the group.  I have mentioned it to
>>you on earlier occasions.
>
> As another java "noob," could you tell me what group that might be?

<http://www.physci.org/codes/javafaq.jsp#cljh>

There is a description of the major Java usenet groups in
the PhySci Java FAQ..
<http://www.physci.org/codes/javafaq.jsp#groups>

HTH
Rhino - 01 Nov 2005 22:53 GMT
> > I know these quenstions may sound stupid ..
>
> Only because they are.  But at least that is a start.
> Once you can accurately identify stupid questions,
> it will(/should) help you not ask them.

There is nothing "stupid" about his questions. They simply demonstrate his
inexperience with Java. There's nothing stupid about being new to Java; we
were all beginners once.

> > ..but please bear with me
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> * You should know the group.  I have mentioned it to
> you on earlier occasions.

You appear to have more justification for these remarks. However, I don't
think of comp.lang.java.help as being reserved for "noobs" or those who are
new to Java, Usenet or formulating intelligent questions. I don't consider
myself to fit into any of those categories but I post questions at
comp.lang.java.help occasionally when I want to discuss concepts or design
issues when I have gaps in my OO background, for instance. The atmosphere
seems a bit more patient and tolerant there while comp.lang.java.programmer
sometimes seems frenzied and rude by comparison.

_You_ may want to relegate beginners to that newsgroup but I think it is a
bit presumptious of you to pretend to speak for the entire Java community or
to be the final authority on what belongs in each newsgroup. At any rate,
the fact that a number of people besides myself seem to feel the same way
suggests you do not speak for _us_.

Mind you, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a newsgroup
specifically for beginners. It just doesn't seem to me that there is a
concensus that comp.lang.java.help is it. It seems to be used for things
other than what you have in mind.

Rhino
Roedy Green - 02 Nov 2005 00:16 GMT
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:53:17 -0500, "Rhino"
<no.offline.contact.please@nospam.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly
quoted someone who said :

>There is nothing "stupid" about his questions. They simply demonstrate his
>inexperience with Java. There's nothing stupid about being new to Java; we
>were all beginners once.

The questions are not stupid questions per se.  We all had them at one
point, even if it was back in the C days wondering what that strange
notation meant.

They are stupidly inefficient in that they are so basic and so widely
answered in textbooks, that they really should not be asked in an
intermediate newsgroup. Further, they are not particularly mysterious
once explained. It is not as though most people would need any
auxiliary explanation.

It is a bit like an adult asking strangers to spoon feed him his
breakies.

For people with English as a second language, I am more patient.  I
don't  presume they have access to texts in their own language or that
they can understand the English language explanations.  Text book
authors often have a rather unusual way of speaking.

On the other hand, if a low IQ person is determined to learn Java, I
say more power to him.  If that person genuinely does not understand,
and has made some effort  to understand, I am willing to take time to
explain and explain no matter how much I think the issue SHOULD be
obvious.

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zero - 02 Nov 2005 00:28 GMT
> For people with English as a second language, I am more patient.  I
> don't  presume they have access to texts in their own language or that
> they can understand the English language explanations.  Text book
> authors often have a rather unusual way of speaking.

True.

However, being a non-native English speaker, I have found that translations
are usually worse.  Either they are translated by people who know both
languages, but nothing about computers, or by computer-savvy people who
don't have a real translator's skills.
I always found it better to read the original English texts, and IMO
knowledge of English is imperative in computer science.

That being said, I do understand that languages and computers are very
distinct, and not everyone has a grasp on both.  I think it's good that
people whose English is less than perfect find their way to usenet and try
their best to explain their problem, and I do try to help.
Ted Present - 02 Nov 2005 00:45 GMT
> That being said, I do understand that languages and computers are very
> distinct, and not everyone has a grasp on both.  I think it's good that
> people whose English is less than perfect find their way to Usenet and try
> their best to explain their problem, and I do try to help.

I agree.  Despite (obviously, as from my earlier posts) being new to this
newsgroup, I've used Usenet for some time and web forums for even longer.
Although people who make honest grammatical/spelling mistakes shouldn't be
shunned (I've done it myself; "teh" instead of "the"), I think that people
who don't care enough to even try writing clearly are the same people who
don't care enough to try working out their own problems.

Posts that look like...
hey can some1 help me i cant get [put problem here] to wrok cause it doesnt
open rite
...probably aren't worth too much time.

However, if the content is still useful to a given community and it can be
deciphered, I've got to hand it to those who take the time to work out an
answer.  Maybe posters will learn to write clearer, more relevant posts.

Of course, this thread might have evolved to be a bit OT for this newsgroup
:)

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Sharp Tool - 02 Nov 2005 09:38 GMT
> > That being said, I do understand that languages and computers are very
> > distinct, and not everyone has a grasp on both.  I think it's good that
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Ted Present
> presentt@gmail.com

If you want to reach a larger audience then please refrain from using
abbreviations (e.g., OT) as not everyone will be familar with them.

Sharp Tool
Chris Uppal - 02 Nov 2005 11:10 GMT
> > Of course, this thread might have evolved to be a bit OT for this
> > newsgroup :)
[....]
> If you want to reach a larger audience then please refrain from using
> abbreviations (e.g., OT) as not everyone will be familar with them.

Conversely, every social group (and some anti-social groups ;-) develops its
own slang.  It's not often easy to tell whether the linguistic justification is
principally social (e.g.  "people like us talk like us") or practical (people
who share an interest need more specialised vocabulary than is provided by the
wider language -- so they develop jargon).  I think that a fair case can be
made that the classic Usenet abbreviations, OT, ISWIM, AFAIK, IIRC, IANAL, etc,
are not /just/ convenient contractions but are part of our social fabric here.
All IMO, of course...

You'll notice that contractions in general (u r g8) are viewed /very/
differently, which -- to my mind -- indicates that the issue is social rather
than merely reflecting the tension between the best convenience of the writer
vs. that of his/her readers.

   -- chris
zero - 02 Nov 2005 13:39 GMT
> If you want to reach a larger audience then please refrain from using
> abbreviations (e.g., OT) as not everyone will be familar with them.
>
> Sharp Tool

www.acronymfinder.com
always helps me :-)
Ted Present - 03 Nov 2005 03:46 GMT
> If you want to reach a larger audience then please refrain from using
> abbreviations (e.g., OT) as not everyone will be familar with them.

I see your point.  I've used web forums and Usenet for some time, and, at
least for me, acronyms like OT are subconsiously translated to "Off Topic."
However, it does not take significantly extra effort to type out "Off
Topic," and doing so would make it that much clearer to that many more
people.  I guess the best thing would be to just make translating acronyms
into what they stand for part of my "proof-read-my-post-before-submission"
routine.  The only problem is, it's another bad (depending on your stance,
of course) habit I need to break.

--Ted
Roedy Green - 02 Nov 2005 03:39 GMT
>However, being a non-native English speaker

I would not have guessed. You don't have an "accent".   I don't
recognise .hi as a country code.

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zero - 02 Nov 2005 13:38 GMT
>>However, being a non-native English speaker
>
> I would not have guessed. You don't have an "accent".   I don't
> recognise .hi as a country code.

Well I don't like spam ;-)

I have been told I do have an accent when I speak.  Lack of practice I
suppose, I type a lot more than I talk.

In case you were wondering, I'm from Belgium, mother tongue Dutch.

PS On the topic of spam: when I was first learning Java I wrote a spam
filter that used Bayesean filtering techniques.  If you haven't checked it
out, I heartily recommend it - as long as you use each new mail you get to
continue training your filter.
Rhino - 02 Nov 2005 14:55 GMT
> >>However, being a non-native English speaker
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> In case you were wondering, I'm from Belgium, mother tongue Dutch.

I think _everyone_ has an accent whenever they speak, we're just not
conscious of it if we're in an environment of people with the same accent.

I'm Canadian. Back in high school, a new guy came to our school and spoke in
a distinctly different way. Perfectly understandable but different than the
rest of us. We asked Pete where he was from and it turned out he was born
and raised in Chicago. I think we remained quite conscious of his accent
over the years, although we never really talked about it or gave him any
grief about it. Then, one day, I asked him if we had an accent in his ears.
He said we did. If you think about it, this makes perfect sense: we didn't
pronounce things exactly the same way that people in Chicago did so, to his
ears, we WERE speaking with accents.

Rhino
Roedy Green - 02 Nov 2005 15:11 GMT
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:55:40 -0500, "Rhino"
<no.offline.contact.please@nospam.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly
quoted someone who said :

>Then, one day, I asked him if we had an accent in his ears.
>He said we did.

That reminds me when we were kids we had a Scottish relative come for
a visit.  She tried to explain to us we had a Canadian accent. We were
skeptical.  We asked her to talk in a Canadian accent. She did. We all
burst out laughing -- you're just talking "normally" we claimed
triumphantly, surprised she could do it when she put her mind to it.

Hugh Laurie, the actor who plays House, the diagnostic puzzle TV Show,
is a Brit who affects an American accent for the role.

I love asking people about their accents which I find endlessly
fascinating. So often when I ask "What other languages do you speak
besides English" the answer is "none".  Accents are not always caused
by learning some other language first.

It is fun to be able to place people right to the city or to tell a
person what countries they have lived in.  One of the fun ones its to
tell a Chinese person whose second language is English the nationality
of his original English teacher.  It seems like some sort of ESP.  I
went nuts on my visit to England asking people about their accents.
All the regional accents are so distinctive. There it is no great
skill to tell exactly where someone is from.

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Rhino - 03 Nov 2005 01:04 GMT
> On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:55:40 -0500, "Rhino"
> <no.offline.contact.please@nospam.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Hugh Laurie, the actor who plays House, the diagnostic puzzle TV Show,
> is a Brit who affects an American accent for the role.

He's far from the only actor to do that! Just think about Meryl Streep, who
seems to be able to do just about any accent she wants, often without even
knowing the language whose accent she is imitating! For instance, in
Sophie's Choice (or one of the other Holocaust-themed films she did, I can't
recall for sure) she was speaking German. I asked a native German speaker
how good her German was and was told it was "absolutely perfect". Yet, as
far as I know, Streep never spoke German before doing that film.

Other examples like Hugh Laurie are Anthony LaPaglia, who did an
excellent-sounding British lower class accent in Frasier - is actually
Australian, as is his current costar Poppy Montgomery, while the black woman
who is their other costar (her name escapes me) is British, yet all three
sound entirely American in the show.

> I love asking people about their accents which I find endlessly
> fascinating. So often when I ask "What other languages do you speak
> besides English" the answer is "none".  Accents are not always caused
> by learning some other language first.

Of course not! Unilingual people all have accents too. Basically, they sound
like the other people around them when they were growing up. More narrowly,
it's probably the predominant way of speaking they heard when they were
learning to speak themselves.

I was once introduced to a guy in his thirties who had recently emigrated to
Canada from England. I took a wild guess that he was from Liverpool; his
speech reminded me very much of the old Beatles cartoons. It turned out that
he'd lived all over England, never staying in one place for more than a year
or so. He had, however, lived in Liverpool for about a year when he was
three. He remarked that anyone who ever met him always assumed he was a
lifelong Liverpudlian; I'm not sure if that "everyone" included Brits and
Canadians or just Canadians.

> It is fun to be able to place people right to the city or to tell a
> person what countries they have lived in.  One of the fun ones its to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> All the regional accents are so distinctive. There it is no great
> skill to tell exactly where someone is from.

Another interesting phenomenon is the double accent. For instance, I once
met a met who had grown up in Italy, as an Italian-speaker, then moved to
Australia and lived there for 20 or more years. His speech was a very
curious blend of English with large amounts of both Italian and Australian
influence. It's very hard to write this down or imagine it in your mind but
you might come close if you say something like "Whatsa-the-matta-fo-you,
mate?" (Forgive the stereotypes!)

Rhino
Roedy Green - 03 Nov 2005 02:06 GMT
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:04:46 -0500, "Rhino"
<no.offline.contact.please@nospam.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly
quoted someone who said :

>her German was and was told it was "absolutely perfect".

The topic police will pounce soon, so let me get this story in.  

My younger brother has a knack for accents.  He discovered that during
the era of the Beatles that a Liverpudlian accent would drive girls
wild.  He even got my Mom affecting one to maintain the charade.
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Roedy Green - 03 Nov 2005 02:12 GMT
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:04:46 -0500, "Rhino"
<no.offline.contact.please@nospam.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly
quoted someone who said :

> Accents are not always caused
>> by learning some other language first.
>>
>Of course not!

The surprise is mostly is listening to people from Africa with English
as a first language. Those accents are so different from European
ones.
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Thomas G. Marshall - 03 Nov 2005 02:14 GMT
Rhino coughed up:
>> On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:55:40 -0500, "Rhino"
>> <no.offline.contact.please@nospam.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
> but
> you might come close if you say something like "Whatsa-the-matta-fo-you,

My wife had a master's degree in Slavic Linguistics.  Her graduate studies
were in Virginia.  There were many students there with a Russian/southern-us
accent.  Horrible.

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Rhino - 04 Nov 2005 16:53 GMT
> > Another interesting phenomenon is the double accent. For instance, I once
> > met a met who had grown up in Italy, as an Italian-speaker, then moved to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> were in Virginia.  There were many students there with a Russian/southern-us
> accent.  Horrible.

I can just imagine... <CRINGE>

Kakaye po-Russki, y'all?

Rhino
Thomas G. Marshall - 04 Nov 2005 18:55 GMT
Rhino coughed up:
>>> Another interesting phenomenon is the double accent. For instance, I
>>> once
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Rhino

Should I worry where the </CRINGE> is...?

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Roedy Green - 02 Nov 2005 00:20 GMT
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:53:17 -0500, "Rhino"
<no.offline.contact.please@nospam.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly
quoted someone who said :

>_You_ may want to relegate beginners to that newsgroup but I think it is a
>bit presumptious of you to pretend to speak for the entire Java community or
>to be the final authority on what belongs in each newsgroup.

I think there are official charters.  There are various descriptions
of the consensus of what the groups are for in various FAQs.

There are people who subscribe to only comp.lang.java. programmer.
They are busy people. They want to stay abreast of what's happening,
but have only a little time to do it. Threads about what *= means are
a total waste of their valuable time.  

To them, newbies who is insist on posting to comp.lang.java.programmer
are much like those 90 year old Sunday drivers on the freeway.

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Dave Glasser - 02 Nov 2005 01:14 GMT
Roedy Green <my_email_is_posted_on_my_website@munged.invalid> wrote on
Tue, 01 Nov 2005 23:20:30 GMT in comp.lang.java.programmer:

>On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:53:17 -0500, "Rhino"
><no.offline.contact.please@nospam.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>To them, newbies who is insist on posting to comp.lang.java.programmer
>are much like those 90 year old Sunday drivers on the freeway.

I disagree. The aforementioned driver can block the passing lane and
force me to drive slower than I normally would, wasting my time, and
causing me enormous frustration. OTOH, the newbie posting to cljp
wastes virtually none of my time. I can tell within a few seconds
whether or not a post is worth bothering with. If not, I simply ignore
it. No harm no foul.

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Roedy Green - 02 Nov 2005 05:50 GMT
>I disagree. The aforementioned driver can block the passing lane and
>force me to drive slower than I normally would, wasting my time, and
>causing me enormous frustration. OTOH, the newbie posting to cljp
>wastes virtually none of my time. I can tell within a few seconds
>whether or not a post is worth bothering with. If not, I simply ignore
>it. No harm no foul.

Just as people have different reactions to Sunday drivers so do they
to misplaced posts.

There is an advantage to the  poster to put it in the proper place
with a distinctive subject line.

If someone later thinks of a solution to the problem, they will find
the thread more easily if it in the right place. If they can't easily
find it, they may give up, and OP will never hear the solution.
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Thomas G. Marshall - 02 Nov 2005 14:59 GMT
Roedy Green coughed up:

>> I disagree. The aforementioned driver can block the passing lane and
>> force me to drive slower than I normally would, wasting my time, and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> There is an advantage to the  poster to put it in the proper place
> with a distinctive subject line.

Like you said, there are charters.  Look up the charter for .help.

...[rip]...

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Dave Glasser - 02 Nov 2005 15:41 GMT
Roedy Green <my_email_is_posted_on_my_website@munged.invalid> wrote on
Wed, 02 Nov 2005 04:50:47 GMT in comp.lang.java.programmer:

>>I disagree. The aforementioned driver can block the passing lane and
>>force me to drive slower than I normally would, wasting my time, and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Just as people have different reactions to Sunday drivers so do they
>to misplaced posts.

The big difference is that you have no choice whether or not the
Sunday driver impacts your life by wasting your time, whereas you do
with errant posters.

>There is an advantage to the  poster to put it in the proper place
>with a distinctive subject line.
>
>If someone later thinks of a solution to the problem, they will find
>the thread more easily if it in the right place. If they can't easily
>find it, they may give up, and OP will never hear the solution.

And it's no skin off my nose.

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Thomas G. Marshall - 02 Nov 2005 19:31 GMT
Dave Glasser coughed up:
> Roedy Green <my_email_is_posted_on_my_website@munged.invalid> wrote on
> Wed, 02 Nov 2005 04:50:47 GMT in comp.lang.java.programmer:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Sunday driver impacts your life by wasting your time, whereas you do
> with errant posters.

Correct.  And a few people here are trying to pretend that it ruins
everyone's experience in usenet to have newbies post in a forum where some
think only advanced people should be.

If you're advanced, and you see a question you feel is beneath you, then try
ignoring it.

>> There is an advantage to the  poster to put it in the proper place
>> with a distinctive subject line.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> And it's no skin off my nose.

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Roedy Green - 03 Nov 2005 02:17 GMT
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:31:55 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
<tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>Correct.  And a few people here are trying to pretend that it ruins
>everyone's experience in usenet to have newbies post in a forum where some
>think only advanced people should be.

An ant won't ruin your picnic, but being overrun with grasshoppers
will.

It as a form of tidiness, keeping things in their place. People range
in attitudes from slob to sock Nazi.  You find the same range on the
newsgroups.

We are living out here the conflict between Oscar and Felix.
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Sharp Tool - 02 Nov 2005 09:56 GMT
> On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:53:17 -0500, "Rhino"
> <no.offline.contact.please@nospam.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I think there are official charters.  There are various descriptions
> of the consensus of what the groups are for in various FAQs.

FAQs written by a single or a small group of authors do not represent the
whole Java community. Those FAQs are only there as a guide and certainly do
not represent the final word.

> There are people who subscribe to only comp.lang.java. programmer.
> They are busy people. They want to stay abreast of what's happening,
> but have only a little time to do it. Threads about what *= means are
> a total waste of their valuable time.

They are not obligated to answer any threads.

Sharp Tool
Roedy Green - 02 Nov 2005 11:44 GMT
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:56:25 GMT, "Sharp Tool"
<sharp.tool@bigpond.net.au> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
who said :

>> I think there are official charters.  There are various descriptions
>> of the consensus of what the groups are for in various FAQs.
>
>FAQs written by a single or a small group of authors do not represent the
>whole Java community. Those FAQs are only there as a guide and certainly do
>not represent the final word.

The FAQs are probably more accurate than guesses by someone coming in
cold.

The entire newsgroup system works only because most of the time most
of the people keep mostly to common themes within each newsgroup.
Otherwise it would be pointless to subscribe to one.

It is an anarchy. This means no one is officially in charge. If
participants did not work to encourage sensible behaviour by group
pressure, it would fall into chaos.

Using the freeway analogy.  You may be legally permitted to drive at
30 MPH, but then others are legally permitted to honk at you and give
you the finger, or point out the scenic route and people are permitted
to ignore you if they see you later stranded by the side of the road.

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zero - 02 Nov 2005 13:47 GMT
> Using the freeway analogy.  You may be legally permitted to drive at
> 30 MPH, but then others are legally permitted to honk at you and give
> you the finger, or point out the scenic route and people are permitted
> to ignore you if they see you later stranded by the side of the road.

really?  Not here, on both accounts.  There's a minimum speed on highways,
and flashing lights, giving the finger etc are illegal as well.  Still
happens of course.

As for the FAQs, I think they are accepted by most of the community
members, though perhaps not all.  I've seen many newsgroup FAQ be rejected
by the community, only to be posted again by the same individual the next
month.

I would suggest some tollerance.  I see no reason to be personally offended
by any post that is not personally targetting you.  If a post doesn't suit
your sense of what's right for a particular newsgroup the best thing to do
is ignore it.  Failing that, a polite reply correcting the poster makes a
solid alternative.  If the post really is offensive then perhaps an angry
reply is warranted - although most of the time that only makes it worse.
Roedy Green - 02 Nov 2005 14:59 GMT
> If a post doesn't suit
>your sense of what's right for a particular newsgroup the best thing to do
>is ignore it.

I disagree. Not everyone has to jump on every infraction, but you
should not let all infractions pass.  That is just inviting your
garden to turn to weeds.  The Internet has plenty of newsgroups made
useless by excess tolerance. It requires balance. I think most people
goof out of ignorance or error.  For those who resist just to annoy,
total shunning is best. They are doing it for attention.
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Thomas G. Marshall - 02 Nov 2005 19:57 GMT
Roedy Green coughed up:

>> If a post doesn't suit
>> your sense of what's right for a particular newsgroup the best thing to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I disagree. Not everyone has to jump on every infraction, but you
> should not let all infractions pass.

Infractions???  I thought you just got done saying it was an anarchy.  You
are trying to have it both ways!

>That is just inviting your
> garden to turn to weeds.  The Internet has plenty of newsgroups made
> useless by excess tolerance. It requires balance. I think most people
> goof out of ignorance or error.  For those who resist just to annoy,
> total shunning is best. They are doing it for attention.

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Roedy Green - 03 Nov 2005 02:21 GMT
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:57:30 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
<tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>Infractions???  I thought you just got done saying it was an anarchy.  You
>are trying to have it both ways!

In an anarchy there is no official authority, but that does not stop
people from trying to control each other's behaviour or creating
standards of acceptable conduct.

Another way of looking at it is the authority is distributed.

Things tend to settle into consensus over time, so you have peer
pressure enforcing suitable conduct.

On the whole it works pretty well.
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Thomas G. Marshall - 02 Nov 2005 14:53 GMT
Rhino coughed up:

>>> I know these quenstions may sound stupid ..
>>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> or
> to be the final authority on what belongs in each newsgroup.

I agree.  We have got to knock this off.  There is nothing in the usenet
descriptions for c.l.j.help that relegates it to beginners.  I have pointed
this out before, and have *backed away* from it believing in some sort of
"common usage".  However, if people here are going to get all pissy about
toward newbies and where they belong, then I will in their defense get
equally pissy and point out the descriptions of the newsgroups established
by the closest thing there is to an authority in usenet.

A person knowing of this list, or looking at its listing elsewhere, would
see this, and not think twice about asking a beginner question in
c.l.j.programmer.  Does it say *advanced* ?  *No*.

group: news.announce.newgroups
subject: List of Big Eight Newsgroups

comp.lang.java.3d 3D Graphics API's for the Java language.
comp.lang.java.advocacy Support for and criticism of the Java System.
comp.lang.java.announce Announcements re the Java System. (Moderated)
comp.lang.java.beans Java software components (JavaBeans).
comp.lang.java.corba Topics relating to Java and CORBA.
comp.lang.java.databases Databases, java.sql, JDBC, ODBC.
comp.lang.java.gui GUI toolkits and windowing: AWT, IFC etc.
*comp.lang.java.help Set-up problems, catch-all first aid.*
comp.lang.java.machine JVM, native methods, hardware.
comp.lang.java.programmer Programming in the Java language.
comp.lang.java.security Security issues raised by Java.
comp.lang.java.softwaretools IDEs, browsers, compilers, other tools.

BUT FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAT THIS: This angry tone toward ignorant questions
claiming they are "stupid" has got to end.

There is nothing to be gained by making newbies afraid to ask questions.

...[rip]...

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Everythinginlifeisrealative.Apingpongballseemssmalluntilsomeoneramsitupyournose.

Roedy Green - 02 Nov 2005 15:18 GMT
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 13:53:56 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
<tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>However, if people here are going to get all pissy about
>toward newbies and where they belong, then I will in their defense get
>equally pissy and point out the descriptions of the newsgroups established
>by the closest thing there is to an authority in usenet

The problem is c.l.j.p. is presumed to be a sort of an inner circle
where you need a Masonic ritual to be invited.

This provokes the chip on the shoulder attitude when a newbie gets
asked to take his questions to c.l.j.h. He feels like he is being
asked to sit at the children's table at Thanksgiving.

It is just a way of filing questions logically and also allowing
newbies to ignore advanced stuff and vice versa.

What is the point of having two groups if you don't use them for
different purposes.  The logical division, is beginner questions and
other questions.

We are the people running these newsgroups. There is no one here but
us chickens. So we should be the ones deciding as we go how we want to
use these tools.

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Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.

Gordon Beaton - 02 Nov 2005 14:51 GMT
> What is the point of having two groups if you don't use them for
> different purposes. The logical division, is beginner questions and
> other questions.

That is just one of many possible logical distinctions, and judging
from the posts in both groups, not necessarily one that's obvious to
everyone.

The division between cljh and cljp is IMO unfortunate and
unsuccessful. The contain mostly the same kinds of discussions, and
seem to have the same readership.

> We are the people running these newsgroups. There is no one here but
> us chickens. So we should be the ones deciding as we go how we want
> to use these tools.

Good luck herding those squirrels.

/gordon

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[  do not email me copies of your followups  ]
g o r d o n + n e w s @  b a l d e r 1 3 . s e

Thomas G. Marshall - 02 Nov 2005 19:47 GMT
Gordon Beaton coughed up:
>> What is the point of having two groups if you don't use them for
>> different purposes. The logical division, is beginner questions and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> from the posts in both groups, not necessarily one that's obvious to
> everyone.

Nope, it isn't.  And nor should it be.  /Particularly/ when you take into
account that the explanations I showed are the ones that many news servers
give for descriptions when the user is subscribing to the groups in the
first place.

> The division between cljh and cljp is IMO unfortunate and
> unsuccessful.

Did you mean that the division is /unfortunately/ unsuccessful, or that the
division was unfortunate.  If I had my druthers I would probably have wanted
the following:

       comp.lang.java        catch-all
       comp.lang.java.beginners    noobs
       comp.lang.java.advanced    advanced
       comp.lang.java.lesbians    just 'cause

;)  All but the last one are serious.

> The contain mostly the same kinds of discussions, and
> seem to have the same readership.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> /gordon

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Onedoctortoanother:"Ifthisismyrectalthermometer,wherethehell'smypen???"

Roedy Green - 03 Nov 2005 02:22 GMT
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:47:17 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
<tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>Nope, it isn't.  And nor should it be.  /Particularly/ when you take into
>account that the explanations I showed are the ones that many news servers
>give for descriptions when the user is subscribing to the groups in the
>first place.

How do you think we should use the two newsgroups?
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Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.

Thomas G. Marshall - 03 Nov 2005 03:41 GMT
Roedy Green coughed up:
> On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:47:17 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
> <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> How do you think we should use the two newsgroups?

Use them how you like.

But do not berate someone by calling their ignorant questions "stupid" as
Andrew did, and do not act as if someone has done something wrong by posting
an advanced question in .help, or a newbie question in .programmer.

/If/ you want to say things to the effect of "you might get better response
in x.y.z" that seems perfectly innocuous to me.   I see that sometimes here
regarding .help.  But leave off the "because it's supposed to be for
<substitute/>". I also see far too much of a maniacal attitude that smells
of "you should know better than to post here."

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"It's easier to be terrified by an enemy you admire."
-Thufir Hawat, Mentat and Master of Assassins to House Atreides

Gordon Beaton - 03 Nov 2005 12:57 GMT
> Gordon Beaton coughed up:
>> The division between cljh and cljp is IMO unfortunate and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>         comp.lang.java.beginners    noobs
>         comp.lang.java.advanced    advanced

It was an unfortunate division, which is probably why it's been
unsuccessful.

I'd be in favour of dropping clj.help altogether. I don't see any need
for more than one "general java programming discussion" group, which
is what both clj.help and clj.programmer are (and comp.lang.java was
before it was dropped).

I certainly don't see any particular point in making a distinction
based on difficulty, since not everybody shares the same idea of what
is difficult and what isn't. Many people would post to both groups
anyway, or they would post their easy questions to the advanced group
and get chastised for it, i.e. the same situation we have today.

Honestly, who really cares if easy and difficult topics are discussed
in the same group?

/gordon

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[  do not email me copies of your followups  ]
g o r d o n + n e w s @  b a l d e r 1 3 . s e

Thomas G. Marshall - 02 Nov 2005 19:27 GMT
Roedy Green coughed up:
> On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 13:53:56 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
> <tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> The problem is c.l.j.p. is presumed

No it isn't.  You can create a list of the people who would like it that
way, but it does not make it "presumed" at large at all.

> to be a sort of an inner circle
> where you need a Masonic ritual to be invited.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> us chickens. So we should be the ones deciding as we go how we want to
> use these tools.

Right.  So all the newbies who post here are running these as well.  The
denizens here have no authority nor high ground to stand on even informally.
Not even informally!

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Forgetthesong,I'dratherhavethefrontallobotomy...

Roedy Green - 03 Nov 2005 02:24 GMT
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:27:04 GMT, "Thomas G. Marshall"
<tgm2tothe10thpower@replacetextwithnumber.hotmail.com> wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>> We are the people running these newsgroups. There is no one here but
>> us chickens. So we should be the ones deciding as we go how we want to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>denizens here have no authority nor high ground to stand on even informally.
>Not even informally!

They are part of "we" too.

By we I mean the people using this newsgroup.

It has to work for nearly everyone.

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Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.