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dotmae@gmail.com - 17 Jun 2005 18:55 GMT

I'm sure that most of you programmers in this groups could consider
yourselves zealots of the computer culture and especially in the realm
of programming. However I'm not as lucky. You see, I've been
particularly interested in programming for at least a year now, I've
downloaded compilers, IDE's, etc. However I've never actually decided
on a language to learn. The farthest I ever got into C++ was
'HelloWorld.exe' and then I got fed up with the compiler. I must say
that I have tried RealBasic, which is an amazing IDE and language,
however I would really like to learn a powerful, cross-platform, easier
to learn language; and as far as I've heard, Java seems to fit all of
these qualities. I'm really willing to learn as much knowledge is given
to me, however, where should I start? I've got a book but I don't know
how to start. (Please don't just say 'Read the book', I'm not that bid
of an idiot.Hahaha)

Thanks for any feedback!

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Andrew Thompson - 17 Jun 2005 19:26 GMT

> I'm sure that most of you programmers in this groups could consider
> yourselves zealots of the computer culture and especially in the realm
> of programming.

No. ..but wait, let me recons..NO!

>..However I'm not as lucky.

?!?

>..You see, I've been
> particularly interested in programming for at least a year now, I've
> downloaded compilers, IDE's, etc. However I've never actually decided
> on a language to learn. The farthest I ever got into C++ was
> 'HelloWorld.exe' and then I got fed up with the compiler.

What do you mean 'the' compiler? I do not delve into C++,
but I imagine there must be a dozen compilers for it.

>..I must say
> that I have tried RealBasic, which is an amazing IDE and language,
> however I would really like to learn a powerful, cross-platform, easier
> to learn language;

What for? What burning desire do you have for a piece of software
nobody else has written? I ask what goal/s you want to achieve
because that would strongly influence the choice of language(s).

And perhaps also define 'powerful' and 'easier to learn'.

Easier to learn is an interesting one. Most people regard
JavaScript as easier to learn than Java, because the command
set open to JavaScripts is smaller, but I maintain the opposite
for the fact that Java's extensive API is documented in a
single reference at Sun, whereas there is no 'single' command
set for JS, let alone documentation.

>..and as far as I've heard, Java seems to fit all of
> these qualities. I'm really willing to learn as much knowledge is given
> to me, however, where should I start? I've got a book but I don't know
> how to start. (Please don't just say 'Read the book', I'm not that bid
> of an idiot.Hahaha)

Well you might try *Name the book*. as there are a lot of books
out there that are more valuable as kindling than technical advice.
Besides that, the book may be a fine book on a very advanced area
of Java that is not be suited to the beginner.

> Thanks for any feedback!

I do not feel you have provided enough information to give you
a realistic and useful answer.

- What is your specific interest in x-plat?
- Is your current/future programming purely for your amusement,
or are you looking to deploy to a wide user base?
- What types of things are you intending to program?
( Cute little browser games? Accounting software?
Server tools? Air traffic control systems? )

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Andrew Thompson
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dotmae@gmail.com - 17 Jun 2005 21:55 GMT

Mr. Andrew Thompson,

It's very nice that you don't flame newbies. Let me reiterate. C++
compilers, yes there are a lot of them, I've tried .net studio, borlan,
and dgjpp. As far as what I want to create, I would like to create an
open source clone of Solaris 10 (yes! I know they're open-sourcing it
next quarter!) except, I'd like to also start an online community for
making every application a java application. I've played around a lot
with the linux kernel (which is a real pain btw) and I've also
experimented with Solaris recently. I like the idea, but what would
happen if there was a Unix based OS that didn't crash, and that you
could take any application that would run on Window$ and use those...?
Sure there's Wine and Cross-over office. But both of those are a pain
to setup in Unix environments. What if someone was to take the unix
kernel of their choise, cut it down, run a Java VM overtop of it and
allow for drag and drop installation? What if the pain and suffering of
the Terminal were gone? (Don't get me wrong, the Terminal is great if
you know what you're doing). I've struggled with Unix for a couple
years- yes it's true, when I start up the OS I'm not looking just to
'check my email' or 'write documents' I want to have really cool
applications on there. I want my own webserver with
php4,asp,coldfusion,mySQL support built in, I want Root priviledges, I
want to have a desktop that was built with power in mind, I'm tired of
su- and chmod-. Mostly I'm tired of hearing people say, "But if I turn
to Unix, there's no games, or there's no Flash MX, or no IIS (yes there
is apache, but come on...), it's going to be hard to learn. Yes, yes,
yes, I'm most likely in the wrong forum or group when it comes to unix,
but I'm just answering his question. In short, I want to turn
everything to Java. The book I have is titled: "Learning Java" from
O'Reilly books or whatever. It's awesome, I just read a few intro
chapters and it's really answering some questions.

Next, about VB, I was going to learn VB when I stumbled upon RealBasic
(which is a VB clone) and I would have still continued on that path if
I wasn't so anti-microsoft and I wasn't planning to develop what I'm
planning to develop.

Thanks for the feedback and the thorough flaming. I'll make sure to
make every detail of my posts a little less ambiguous next time.

--

Greg Edwards

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Andrew Thompson - 17 Jun 2005 23:14 GMT

> Mr. Andrew Thompson,
>
> It's very nice that you don't flame newbies.

Well of course not - unless they thoroughly deserve it,
and refuse to heed warnings.

>..Let me reiterate. C++

...(snip 26 lines)

> ..chapters and it's really answering some questions.

Whew! That is a long paragraph. When I get time to decipher it,
I'll check if it answers any of the questions we need to proceed!

> Next, about VB, I was going to learn VB when I stumbled upon RealBasic
> (which is a VB clone) and I would have still continued on that path if
> I wasn't so anti-microsoft and I wasn't planning to develop what I'm
> planning to develop.

OK.. hopefully that, in conjunction with the earlier paragraph
gives others enough info. to hone in on some specific recommendations.
[ and it is a lot more detail than your first post ]

> Thanks for the feedback and the thorough flaming.

Ehh? Are you *serious*!?! Bwa-ha-ha Ha-ha-ha... yur funny!
You ain't even been singed yet. ;-)

For some of my actual flames, you might try these for comparison..
Warm
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.help/msg/4a72c80e47d5504f>
Hot
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.programmer/msg/1f460fb2490d2c1a>
Flame
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.help/msg/6fb15793f3b09745>
Grill
<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.programmer/msg/38b1261ba19f1dcf>

>...I'll make sure to
> make every detail of my posts a little less ambiguous next time.

That's probably best - you will get better thought out answers,
from a wider variety of people.

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Andrew Thompson - 18 Jun 2005 10:40 GMT

>..As far as what I want to create, I would like to create an
> open source clone of Solaris 10 ..

..hmmm. OK. I now know enough to advise ..that I
am *not* qualified to answer your question!

There are folks here who know far more about developing OS's
or OS clones than I do (which is almost, but not quite, one iota).

I cut/pasted an earlier part of your post, but thought
that (above) should be at the top..

(what C++ compilers?)

>..C++
> compilers, yes there are a lot of them, I've tried .net studio, borlan,
> and dgjpp.

So it was not so much any particular compiler, but C++ you
gave up on? [ Sorry, I am still not entirely clear, since
I have not coded C++ nor used those compilers - but each
sounds rather different. The .NET would probably be a neatly
tied up package with wizards and such - same with the Borland
offering if their other tools are anything to go by, while
'dgjpp' appears to be an entirely differently abled beast
<http://bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw/boards/Programming/10/9.html> ]

When learning Java, the equivalents might roughly be..
High end - Eclipse, NetBeans, JBuilder..
Low end - using Sun's tools from the command line.

But these ruminations do not really allow me to make further
comments on your original point.

> However I've never actually decided
> on a language to learn. The farthest I ever got into C++ was
> 'HelloWorld.exe' and then I got fed up with the compiler.

...

In any case - I hope you glean enough information from
other responses to get answers to your questions.

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Thomas Weidenfeller - 20 Jun 2005 08:29 GMT

> As far as what I want to create, I would like to create an
> open source clone of Solaris 10 (yes! I know they're open-sourcing it
> next quarter!)

That was a good one. Sun has finally released the heart of the Solaris
source code. A whopping 5 million lines of source code. And they have
claimed that the remaining unreleased parts are another 5 million lines
of code.

Don't you think your "slightly" overreach? For a programming novice? But
hey, if you are done with the first million of the 10 million lines of
code just report back here. People here sure would like to track your
progress - over the decades.

/Thomas

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The comp.lang.java.gui FAQ:
ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/computer-lang/java/gui/faq

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M K - 17 Jun 2005 19:52 GMT

The Java book I found to be helpful is Java how to program by Deitel &
Deitel. It is a green book and covers a lot of areas.

The ones I see while job hunting are (in no particular order) Java, .NET,
C++ and then things like SQL (all kinds of flavors but MySql is an open
source).

So its whatever path you want to head down. The more you know the more
marketable skills you have (assuming your headed into the coding world)

FWIW - I like VB and Java

If your looking for something easy to use/learn then i would suggest VB.

Mark

> I'm sure that most of you programmers in this groups could consider
> yourselves zealots of the computer culture and especially in the realm
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Thanks for any feedback!

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Leon - 17 Jun 2005 23:19 GMT

> The Java book I found to be helpful is Java how to program by Deitel &
> Deitel. It is a green book and covers a lot of areas.

[...]

My advice for reading would be:

- First a starters book. Wiley's Java All-in-One Desk Reference for Dummies is
well readable.

- After that a more serious work. For example Prentice Hall - Core Java 2 - Vol
1 and 2 covers a lot you need to know. But there are more, Like Manning's
Bittter Java.

- Finaly you can look for specialized work for Design Patterns, J2EE, Threads
Swing and JDBC.

Great book series are produced by Manning, McCraw-Hill, O'Reilly, Prentice Hall,
Sams, Wiley, Wrox and off course Sun. Perhaps you can google for their websites.

Greetings, Leon.

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