Java Forum / General / April 2005
Analytical or Intuitive?
elena - 08 Apr 2005 00:48 GMT I have a test online that measures cognitive style. It determines whether the participant has an intuitive or analytical learning style. It takes about 5 minutes.
It's here: http://www.elena.com
I'm a long-time software engineer who's thinking about changing careers, hence the psychology course. I ended up wanting to study people like me (not surprising I guess).
I know the sample will be non-probabilistic. So this will be a quasi-experiment.
Elena
Chris Uppal - 08 Apr 2005 10:24 GMT > I have a test online that measures cognitive style. It determines > whether the participant has an intuitive or analytical learning style. > It takes about 5 minutes. I gave this a whirl, but it won't let me submit my answers.
It wants an email address, and the address validation is tight enough to reject xxx@yyy.zzz, and while I could (trivially) invent something that did pass the check, or (only slightly less trivially) bypass the client-side validation altogether, I'm damned if I can see why I should be put to the bother of doing so.
Incidentally, the 'submit' button is labelled 'Get My Score' which seems odd when there are "no right or wrong answers"
-- chris
Joona I Palaste - 08 Apr 2005 19:04 GMT Chris Uppal <chris.uppal@metagnostic.remove-this.org> scribbled the following:
>> I have a test online that measures cognitive style. It determines >> whether the participant has an intuitive or analytical learning style. >> It takes about 5 minutes.
> I gave this a whirl, but it won't let me submit my answers.
> It wants an email address, and the address validation is tight enough to reject > xxx@yyy.zzz, and while I could (trivially) invent something that did pass the > check, or (only slightly less trivially) bypass the client-side validation > altogether, I'm damned if I can see why I should be put to the bother of doing > so.
> Incidentally, the 'submit' button is labelled 'Get My Score' which seems odd > when there are "no right or wrong answers" It's not a "good or bad" score, it's "cognitive style index". 0 to 38 means intuitive, 39 to 76 means analytical. I got 50. Anyway, I agree about the e-mail address thingy. It's utterly pointless. I put in "foo@bar.nu". Apologies to any readers from Niue.
 Signature /-- Joona Palaste (palaste@cc.helsinki.fi) ------------- Finland --------\ \-------------------------------------------------------- rules! --------/ "Keep shooting, sooner or later you're bound to hit something." - Misfire
Chris Uppal - 08 Apr 2005 21:59 GMT > [me:] > > Incidentally, the 'submit' button is labelled 'Get My Score' which > > seems odd when there are "no right or wrong answers" > > It's not a "good or bad" score, it's "cognitive style index". Then the button should be labelled 'Get My Cognitive Style Index' ;-)
-- chris
Steve Green - 09 Apr 2005 00:06 GMT >> It wants an email address, and the address validation is tight enough to >> reject [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Anyway, I agree about the e-mail address thingy. It's utterly > pointless. I put in "foo@bar.nu". Apologies to any readers from Niue. I guess I am on to many mailing lists already and wasn't that concerned with people getting it; I just used my normal e-mail, as I do with news groups too.
I get a lot of mail ... it makes me feel popular ;-)
Furious George - 08 Apr 2005 19:25 GMT > > I have a test online that measures cognitive style. It determines > > whether the participant has an intuitive or analytical learning style. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Incidentally, the 'submit' button is labelled 'Get My Score' which seems odd > when there are "no right or wrong answers" BZZZT - wrong answer...you failed - again.
> -- chris Steve Green - 08 Apr 2005 23:49 GMT >I have a test online that measures cognitive style. It determines > whether the participant has an intuitive or analytical learning style. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Elena I am a sucker for self assessment types of sites, so I definitly had to give it a whirl.
I was a 39. It said that I was analitical, but only barely. It went on to say that I would be a neutal learner.
Anyone else willing to share thier results?
--Steve
christopher@dailycrossword.com - 09 Apr 2005 00:13 GMT I took it the last time he posted it. The questions are overly vague, assume a single angle for a given problem, lead or lean toward certain answers, and generally fail to present a neutral environment for acquiring non-biased data.
There is a science of survey taking, which in this case needs to supercede the science of 'cognation' or whatever. I suggest the OP learn his trade before wasting any more of our time.
Patricia Shanahan - 09 Apr 2005 14:56 GMT > I took it the last time he posted it. The questions are > overly vague, assume a single angle for a given problem, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > whatever. I suggest the OP learn his trade before > wasting any more of our time. In particular, I stopped at the second question, due to lack of quantification. ("Quantification" is the distinction between "for all X" and "there exists X").
The first question "In my experience, rational thought is the only realistic basis for making decisions." seemed to me to suggest universal quantification. I think there are issues for which e.g. personal likes and dislikes are a realistic basis for making a decision, so my answer is "F".
The second question, "To solve a problem, I have to study each part of it in detail.", does not indicate quantification. It does not specify a particular problem. It does not say "to solve any problem". It does not say "to solve some problems". It says neither "I sometimes have to study" nor "I always have to study". I can't answer "T" because I've solved some problems without studying them in detail. I can't answer "F" because I do have to study other problems in detail. I'm not uncertain whether it is true or false, I'm absolutely certain neither is a valid answer to the question as posed, so "?" doesn't fit.
For most of the questions, my answer should be "It depends on the circumstances".
The writer of the questionaire really needs to either think though the quantification of each question, and make it clear in the wording, or extend "?" to include certainty that neither "T" nor "F" is always appropriate.
Patricia
Bob - 09 Apr 2005 15:28 GMT > The second question, "To solve a problem, I have to study > each part of it in detail.", does not indicate [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > false, I'm absolutely certain neither is a valid answer to > the question as posed, so "?" doesn't fit. I think we can guess your likely result.
 Signature Bob
elena - 11 Apr 2005 16:47 GMT OK, right now I'm trying to determine who's the toughest audience: Java, C, or C++ programmers. At this point I'm beginning to think that the response to taking the test may end up to be more interesting than the results.
Anyway, I apologize for the non-technical nature of the post. I am not an evil email-gathering spam-bot. Just to let you know, the nature of cognitive style is being debated. This particular test assumes it is a unitary construct. Others think context matters.
Please accept my thanks for helping and taking the test.
Elena
rfractal30 - 11 Apr 2005 22:57 GMT Psychologists aye! only good for upsetting people...
Michael
p.s. nice survey
Dimitri Maziuk - 09 Apr 2005 19:53 GMT Patricia Shanahan sez:
>> I took it the last time he posted it. The questions are >> overly vague, assume a single angle for a given problem, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > of quantification. ("Quantification" is the distinction > between "for all X" and "there exists X"). Hmm. Following pretty much the same logic I answered '?' to *every* question, and whaddya know? -- I'm a natural.
There's also a science of interpreting the results: if someone ticks the same box on every question, their score should most likely be "you're sh.tting me, right?"
Dima
 Signature Things seemed simpler before we kept computers. -- IX, Revelation
Chris Uppal - 10 Apr 2005 09:18 GMT > The writer of the questionaire really needs to either think > though the quantification of each question, and make it > clear in the wording, or extend "?" to include certainty > that neither "T" nor "F" is always appropriate. I think you (and the others) are misunderstanding how this test is supposed to work. Being too "analytical" in fact. Remember that the test is essentially asking /one/ question in lots of different ways. The "fuzz" in the phrasing is almost certainly there by design.
Consider what would happen if the questions were phrased as a precisionist might hope (a precisionist who knew nothing about psychological testing, anyway ;-). The answers would obviously have to include an option, "it depends on the circumstances", and I imagine that just about everybody would answer that to just about every question. Which would produce no information.
-- chris
Dimitri Maziuk - 10 Apr 2005 17:45 GMT Chris Uppal sez:
>> The writer of the questionaire really needs to either think >> though the quantification of each question, and make it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I think you (and the others) are misunderstanding how this test is supposed to > work. Being too "analytical" in fact. There's three angles to each test: the test, its author, and its intended audience. In this case intended audience is people who program computers -- occupation that requires above average analytical skills, attention to detail, and retentive memory. Patricia's commentis exactly what you should expect to get if you ask a bunch of programmers a bunch of extremely vague questions.
Dima
 Signature ... If you want to make sure you don't put a Pig in a List of airplanes and have it fail at insertion rather than extraction, use planelist.add((Airplane)o) instead of planelist.add(o). It's that easy. -- Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Chris Uppal - 10 Apr 2005 20:01 GMT > There's three angles to each test: the test, its author, and its > intended audience. In this case intended audience is people who > program computers -- occupation that requires above average > analytical skills, attention to detail, and retentive memory. > Patricia's commentis exactly what you should expect to get if > you ask a bunch of programmers a bunch of extremely vague questions. Agreed entirely that that's the kind of comment that you'd expect to hear /about/ the test (and I didn't find the questions any more comfortable than anyone else -- I don't like vagueness either), but that doesn't mean that the test isn't well-designed. Indeed, I can quite easily imagine the test's author being just as precise as, say, Patricia or Chris, and finding it even more painful to pose such mushy questions -- even while knowing that it was necessary...
I'm not claiming that it /is/ well designed either -- a test is validated by the its statistical sensitivity and accuracy when applied to a target population, not by armchair theorising. Not even by /my/ armchair theorising...
-- chris
Patricia Shanahan - 10 Apr 2005 21:04 GMT >> There's three angles to each test: the test, its >> author, and its intended audience. In this case [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > -- chris There is an additional consideration for testing using volunteers. It is essential that there be nothing about the test that will selectively discourage test taking in any way that correlates with whatever is being measured.
In this case, the structure of the test tends to selectively discourage people who combine mixed problem solving and learning strategies with a passion for accurate communication. The combination might conceivably be commoner among programmers than in whatever population was used in validating the test.
Patricia
John B. Matthews - 11 Apr 2005 03:12 GMT > >> There's three angles to each test: the test, its > >> author, and its intended audience. In this case [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Patricia This is quite insightful. My own selection bias: I assumed it was an email harvesting scam:-)
 Signature John jmatthews at wright dot edu www dot wright dot edu/~john.matthews/
Chris Uppal - 11 Apr 2005 09:59 GMT > There is an additional consideration for testing using > volunteers. It is essential that there be nothing about the > test that will selectively discourage test taking in any way > that correlates with whatever is being measured. > > In this case, [...] Yes, that's a good point.
I doubt whether the ideal is achievable, though. E.g. the test has presumably been validated against a population that speaks English as its first language, but I doubt if that's representative of the people who might follow a link from a Java newsgroup.
Other skews include:
- the email (mis)handling eliminates both irritable purists (such as myself) and suspicious buggers (such as John).
- pointing the test at a Java population will (I'd guess) tend to include a fairly high proportion of would-be programmers who do not, in fact, "combine mixed problem solving and learning strategies with a passion for accurate communication". (Yes, that's a value judgement about Java programmers' demographics compared with the programming community in general. It may be as wrong as it's unflattering -- it's only a personal opinion anyway -- but there are legitimate grounds for /questioning/ how representative, statistically, Java programmers are (or, if you prefer, what they are representative of)).
- A not-uncommon attitude to such tests among programmers is the "hacker" attitude: "I'm taking this test because I'm interested in how the test is constructed, not in what it might 'tell' me about myself". That's the attitude I approached it with, and I suspect that was your attitude too (plus, perhaps, a willingness to help someone who needed to collect data). The test may attract disproportionately many people with that attitude.
and so on...
-- chris
rfractal30 - 11 Apr 2005 23:13 GMT > > The writer of the questionaire really needs to either think > > though the quantification of each question, and make it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > asking /one/ question in lots of different ways. The "fuzz" in the phrasing is > almost certainly there by design. Agreed. It is the quantity of similar questions which bring about the true results. Also, at the beginning of the survey it is specifically stated that you should not think too deeply before answering each question.
That very question will cause some people to analyse the questions to death. But it is non-loser as far as the survey is concerned.
I'm guessing that Patricia would get somewhere between 40 and 60. Qualities that would undoubtely make her a well adapted programmer/mathematician/scientist.
Michael
rfractal30 - 11 Apr 2005 23:18 GMT > I'm guessing that Patricia would get somewhere between 40 and 60. Sorry, I mean to say between 30 and 50. I was forgetting that the scale ends at 76.
rfractal30 - 11 Apr 2005 23:18 GMT > I'm guessing that Patricia would get somewhere between 40 and 60. Sorry, I mean to say between 30 and 50. I was forgetting that the scale ends at 76.
Patricia Shanahan - 12 Apr 2005 05:19 GMT >> I'm guessing that Patricia would get somewhere between >> 40 and 60. > > Sorry, I mean to say between 30 and 50. I was forgetting > that the scale ends at 76. Well, I tried the test, using "?" for "it depends on circumstances". I got "Your Cognitive Style Index is 37 which indicates that you are an Intuitive learner."
Patricia
Chris Smith - 09 Apr 2005 14:41 GMT > I was a 39. It said that I was analitical, but only barely. It went on to > say that I would be a neutal learner. > > Anyone else willing to share thier results? Sure, I ended up scoring 20, which puts me firmly in the "intuitive" camp. However, I could just as honestly have answered the questions to end up showing up as strongly "analytical".
I agree with the other respondent that the questions were in many cases ambiguous and unclear. For example, my general approach to an important problem is to look for intuitive solutions, and then evaluate each of those carefully and systematically, falling back on a step by step logical progression when that fails to yield a suitable result. That, of course, makes it difficult to answer an either/or question about whether I approach a task with logic or intuition, and most of the questions were rewordings of this theme.
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iamfractal@hotmail.com - 11 Apr 2005 08:11 GMT > >I have a test online that measures cognitive style. It determines > > whether the participant has an intuitive or analytical learning style. > > It takes about 5 minutes.
> I was a 39. It said that I was analitical, but only barely. It went on to > say that I would be a neutal learner. > > Anyone else willing to share thier results? > > --Steve Damn it, I got 60.
Then it told me to get a life.
Or a girlfriend.
.ed
www.EdmundKirwan.com - Home of The Fractal Class Composition.
rfractal30 - 11 Apr 2005 22:45 GMT Hi
I thought it was an interesting survey. The questions were nicely phrased I thought. I was definitely at the scattier end of the scale, with a score of 24. I'm wondering if this means that I'm definitely not suited to becoming a programmer. On the other hand I do often get a lot of satisfaction from the creativity involved in programming. I would definitely be under the impression that analytical types would be better suited for programming though, as they are likely to be more thorough. Fascinating stuff though.
Michael
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