[snip]
> The problems I see are "political" and practical, I'm willing to believe your
> claim that there are no real killer problem in theory.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the stack to form part of a generated invokevirtual instruction call sequence
> is in range, let alone correctly "typed" ?).
I believe this can only be done through dynamic checks. To be honest I
haven't studied the JVML type system in depth, but this is definitely
out of the scope of what I have been studying or propose. What I am
saying is that given a stack-language that can be statically typed,
you can add higher-order functions in a type safe manner with relative
ease.
> The "political" problems (not really a very good term, but I can't think of a
> better one off-hand) are boring and obvious. The JVM is a standard (in the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> numerical terms) languages require the non-standard extensions then there's not
> a lot of chance of them making it into the standard.
Sure, but it is definitely premature to start confronting a proposal
with political obstacles. In the end, all I really care about is the
proposal and sharing my research. I'm building my own virtual machine
language (http://www.cat-language.com) so political matters are of
little interest to me.
> The practical problems are more interesting ;-)
Agreed :-)
> The best way I can put it is that the idea seem to assume, or require, an
> approach to JVM implementation which is not used in practise. If the JVM were
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> herring. For one thing JVM bytecode isn't really that much of a stack-based
> language[*].
It is sufficiently for the purposes of the proposal.
> More importantly the stack is only an incidental feature of the
> intermediate language used to compress source code into a portable delivery
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> approach that the JITer never sees bytecode at all, nor ever thinks in terms of
> a stack (except the stack of activation records, of course).
This is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't take away from my
proposal.
> It may well be that there are ways of extending the analysis the JVM must do to
> allow higher-order bytecodes in the context of a state of the art JITer, but I
> don't see any reason to expect that to be simple at all -- nor any reason to
> expect it even to fit into the current framework at all (it would be like
> adding eval(char *) to an optimising C compiler -- how can the compiler
> optimise code that is unknown until runtime ?)
This is an incorrect comparison. I am not proposing the execution of
untyped strings, or untyped sequence but rather the execution of type
functions generated through typed higher order instructions.
> But then, perhaps the overtly stack-based nature of your idea is itself a
> red-herring. It doesn't seem to me that much would change if you wanted to be
> able to assemble sequences of executable bytecode in byte[] arrays, instead of
> on the stack [snip]
Yes.
> But the techniques for doing that
> are already well-understood, rather widely used, and do not require changes to
> the semantics or implementation of the JVM. So I suspect there's more mileage
> to be gained in looking for ways to optimise that process (e.g. creating
> lighter-weight classes) than in a wholesale reorganisation of the JVM
> semantics.
Even lighter weight classes will always be far slower compare to the
assembly code you can generate if you enable higher order opcodes.
> -- chris
> P.S. Very small notes re: your paper. "PostScript" (which is a registered
> trademark) should be spelled with a capital S. Also, I don't understand why
> you say that PostScript isn't higher order -- you manipulate instructions as
> data every time you write conditional code, or define a procedure. Lastly, I'm
> not sure that citing the PostScript reference manual as "Inc. 1999" is quite in
> tune with established academic norms ;-)
Thanks for the corrections, and thank you very much for the
discussion.
Christopher Diggins
http://www.cdiggins.com
Chris Uppal - 11 Apr 2007 10:09 GMT
> > It may well be that there are ways of extending the analysis the JVM
> > must do to allow higher-order bytecodes in the context of a state of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> untyped strings, or untyped sequence but rather the execution of type
> functions generated through typed higher order instructions.
You keep talking about the type system, but (while I understand that it is
important to be able to do this checking, and I agree that it is significant
that you /can/ do the checking), I don't see the relevance here. The issue is
the implementation technology used in generating native code, not the
technology used in static verification of bytecode.
Following the terms of my analogy, consider the following code:
sum = 0;
for (int i = 0; i < array.length; i++)
{
for (int j = i; j < array.length; j++)
{
eval("sum += array[i] * array[j]");
}
}
return sum;
the problem is not that the input to eval() might specify unsafe operations, or
operations which wouldn't make sense, but that the compiler has no idea which,
if any, of the variables are used in the loop; what kinds of
loop-transformation operations are valid; or even whether there are any loops
at all there. It can't compile code it hasn't seen.
-- chris
Christopher Diggins - 11 Apr 2007 16:56 GMT
On Apr 11, 2:09 am, "Chris Uppal" <chris.up...@metagnostic.REMOVE-
THIS.org> wrote:
> > > It may well be that there are ways of extending the analysis the JVM
> > > must do to allow higher-order bytecodes in the context of a state of
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> the implementation technology used in generating native code, not the
> technology used in static verification of bytecode.
What I meant was that the type system prevents you from using "eval"
on anything but a function value. A function value is guaranteed to be
a piece of well-typed code, by the type system.
> Following the terms of my analogy, consider the following code:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> loop-transformation operations are valid; or even whether there are any loops
> at all there. It can't compile code it hasn't seen.
Because you can't evaluate strings in my proposal, you can only
evaluate dynamically created functions, which are neccessarily
constructed by quoting functions (e.g. pushing functions onto the
stack) that the compiler has already seen. So your example becomes
sum = 0;
for (int i = 0; i < array.length; i++)
{
for (int j = i; j < array.length; j++)
{
eval(closure{sum += array[i] * array[j]});
}
}
return sum;
There are plenty of well-known optimizations that can be done to the
above code using functional optimization techniques, including pre-
evaluation.
The next logical step after introducing higher order opcodes is the
introduction of array/list processing primitives based. Iterating over
an array for an example could also be done using higher order
functions like "map" or "fold", which can be easily parallelized by a
compiler.
Christopher Diggins
http://www.cdiggins.com