Java Forum / GUI / June 2005
So long SUCKERS !!!
Swing S.u.c.ks. - 08 Jun 2005 12:38 GMT Here's a snippet I took of a Java SWING developers blog:
<snip> You try telling your users that they need to upgrade to >2Gb of memory when all they want to run is 5 or so Java GUIs of only moderate complexity. </p> Now I'm sure these GUI could have been better written so as not to be resource hogs, but they weren't. Which leads me neatly onto the other problem I have. Swing is all very nice and obviously can work very well, but in practice there doesn't seem to be many developers who can do Swing well and quickly. They also aren't cheap to hire. </snip>
Finally, Oh Finally, someone from the real world !!. It makes me want to cry with joy when I finally come accross a developer who has some business acumen as well as technical savvy. Most developers are complete morons when it comes to what drives business.
We are currently about to roll out version 1.0 of our commercial product - built from new (so I had a choice over what technology/language to use at the frontend), after several months of deliberating and due diligence, I have come to the conclusion (as much as it hurts me), that 90% if not more of our clients will be running Windoze. I must be mad to put my company at a disadvantage (because technically, I am in the Java/Linux camp). It would be completely insane for me to go to the market with a front end that is not ready for prime time. The fact is that we are all told and know in theory that we should not judge a book by its cover - but what do we do the first thing we some beautiful person walk past us (even though we may know that they may be a "bitch" - in terms of personality). This is why plastic surgery is so much in vogue at the moment - because looks *Do* make a difference morons (pull your head out of your techie arses). Another point the enlightened OP made was this - sure you can get Java to "dance" and (possibly) compete with native apps on Win32 - but at what cost?. By the time you get someone who is experienced enough to do what you want (read high fixed costs for a vulture preying on the insane and masquerading as a "consultant"), you could have walked accross the road, plucked a spotty teenager from behind the counter at McDonalds and taught him/her to design 15/20 equivalent GUIs that the "consultant" has "oh, so carefully and gingerly handcrafted". This is overindulgence at its worst. It makes absolutely no f**king business sense !!!. Whats the point? - the user doesn't know (or care) about the difference.
Its sad - SWING has a lot of potential, but its still not ready for prime time. Business people like me who have to make desicions and compete on the desktop (almost implicitly, Windoze), will inevitably opt for a Micro$oft solution - because although we may not love it at heart, we must give it its due props - it gets the job done quicker and better (as far as the end user is concerned) than SWING (incidentally or QT or any other GUI frameowrk on Windows). Mr Gates did not get to be a billionaire by not understanding how to "tie" people to his OS. He's got a good thing going and he will fight tooth and nail to preserve his territory (Who wouldn't). I mean we still have to put up with half-assed releases from Micro$oft, and then contend with several dozen or so "patches" afterwords, but hey what you gonna do? - it's all we've got at the moment - and it does er, the job anyway..
In the mean time, what does the Java lobby do? - instead of consolidating its efforts to delivering a killer blow, its got its head far up its arse, and its split with infighting between SWING and SWT, completely oblivious of a real threat in the desktop war,advancing from a blindspot : Macromedia Flash.
Well for me, I haven't got the inclination or the time for these "geeky" battles. I want to make money - and as far as I know, that goal is reached by delivering a feature rich and responsive (read blisteringly fast) application that has a shallow learning curve (i.e. PLF) to the client. That unfortunately, spells Micoro$oft. You in the Java camp can keep playing with your new SWING gadget - for me, I'm off to make some money in the real world.
So long suckers ...!
Cor Ligthert - 08 Jun 2005 12:51 GMT If you are a man (or woman) sent this with a real email address and name.
The message shows now only something about you.
One of those things is that you are probably not older than 12
And therefore it is better that I don't write anything more.
Tim Ward - 08 Jun 2005 14:10 GMT > Finally, Oh Finally, someone from the real world !!. > (ect ect) Too right.
I am currently maintaining a set of tools, some written in MSVC and some in Java. From time to time I get questions about GUI nasties to which the only answer, after much research, turns out to be "because you told me to write that one in Java, and that's what Java does".
Plus if you want
(a) Swing, and: (b) sockets
to work you're just a teensy bit stuck, because all sufficiently late versions of the JRE have a bug which causes the GUI to crash on XP (sometimes, depending on the theme the user has selected), and all versions of the JRE which are early enough not to have this GUI bug have catastrophic problems with handling sockets in multiple threads.
-- Tim Ward Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk
Tjerk Wolterink - 08 Jun 2005 22:52 GMT >>Finally, Oh Finally, someone from the real world !!. >>(ect ect) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > answer, after much research, turns out to be "because you told me to write > that one in Java, and that's what Java does". nope, ever used a cool look&feel in java... ... problably you didnt those look&feels just look better then those of microsoft. and they are portable
> Plus if you want > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to work you're just a teensy bit stuck, because all sufficiently late > versions of the JRE have a bug which causes the GUI to crash on XP ive seen several application that use sockets in java, and they all work. if you have a bug report it.
> (sometimes, depending on the theme the user has selected), and all versions > of the JRE which are early enough not to have this GUI bug have catastrophic > problems with handling sockets in multiple threads. maybe you should read a tutorial on using threads in swing.
> -- > Tim Ward > Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk swing is a gui toolkit that will survive every step in the windows evelutions, just bevause it is very well designed. And good designed software last longer.
Nigel Wade - 09 Jun 2005 10:10 GMT >> Finally, Oh Finally, someone from the real world !!. >> (ect ect) > > Too right. [nsip]
> Plus if you want > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of the JRE which are early enough not to have this GUI bug have catastrophic > problems with handling sockets in multiple threads. Please supply some supporting evidence for this.
My applets use Swing and make very, very heavy use of sockets in threads. They don't crash on XP (we have a display system with 6 copies of the applet running all the time).
 Signature Nigel Wade, System Administrator, Space Plasma Physics Group, University of Leicester, Leicester, LE1 7RH, UK E-mail : nmw@ion.le.ac.uk Phone : +44 (0)116 2523548, Fax : +44 (0)116 2523555
Tim Ward - 09 Jun 2005 10:23 GMT > Please supply some supporting evidence for this. They're in Sun's bug database. If I get time I'll look up the numbers.
-- Tim Ward Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk
Giovanni Azua - 08 Jun 2005 16:08 GMT Hello Unknown,
I have developed very *heavy* i.e. plenty of functionality and very very rich GUI Swing application including custom graphical components that even uses reflection and is by far very fast and stable. It is currently running at many production sites (Banks to be precise, which are well known for being extremelly picky, paranoid and rarely satisfiable) right now and without any problems ... they are very happy with it.
I have developed all kind of Java applications and I have never found any "Java GUI bug have catastrophic problems with handling sockets in multiple threads" and have used threads in Java thoroughly ... you can download my implementation of the classic "Santa Claus" concurrency problem from:
http://se.inf.ethz.ch/teaching/ss2005/0268/exercises/santa_claus_giovanni.zip
My point is that any technology can be used badly ... Java Swing is no exception. But I tell you, implementing a GUI with Swing using (hopefully) the right RAD tool e.g. Java Forte Community; is by far a much better approach than many counterparts e.g. MFC, Delphi:
- Swing has an excellent design, uses extensively the MVC Design Pattern that positively affects the quality of the source (e.g. maintainability). - Very complex GUI's can be developed really really quickly either with or without tools, I am used to the Forte Community Edition. Swing really boost productivity. - It is a perfect balance of good design, quick prototyping and development of GUI's. Most other alternatives completely lack one or the other e.g. MFC and Delphi. - I have extensively used MFC and Swing and Swing makes your life much easier creating your own custom components. With MFC you would many times die on the way; unless you read one by one the thousands of articles of Paul DiLascia who is I think the guru in programming Windows using C++.
As quick example think about the notorious Grid Control: if you need a Windows native control you will end up almost for sure buying one, or in a hell of an API for the bundled MS ActiveX control. Swing has the gorgeously designed JTable were you can seamlessly implement virtually whatever Grid functionality you like.
- Swing performance problems? only if used badly and for really extreme cases can be used some tool like e.g. http://www.excelsior-usa.com/jet.html to get your code native instead of interpreted. - Additional known benefits: multiplatform, can be run standalone or web-based (applets), pluggable L&F, vast properly designed libraries to reuse from, etc.
Best Regards, Giovanni
"." - 09 Jun 2005 21:21 GMT > Here's a snippet I took of a Java SWING developers blog: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > business acumen as well as technical savvy. Most developers are complete > morons when it comes to what drives business. If my opinion is worth listening to then I want people to know who I am. If I have to post a message anonymously then I obviously don't have the conviction to stand up for what I believe.
This message is not for the original poster. I expect that they are not reading this. If they are that speaks volumes; they claim to be leaving us behind but they still hang around to read what we have to say? Please, if we really are the morons he claims we are then he should have moved on.
I'm smart enough to know that every debate like this boils down to one thing. There is no one technology that does it all. Which technology someone ultimately chooses depends on what they need and what limitations will not affect them. I am not pro Java. I write code in C, C++, Java, assembly language, VB, JavaScript, etc. whatever meets the requirements of the project. Portability is a big concern for my company. We support far more UNIX platforms then we do Windows. Our big customers are running AIX, HP-UX or Solaris. We make a lot of money from Windows customers and have no intention of dropping them but we can exceed their expectations using Java.
Everyone whose opinion I value seem to agree that the answer to, "What is the best <your technology here>" answer, "It depends."
> We are currently about to roll out version 1.0 of our commercial product > - built from new (so I had a choice over what technology/language to use [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Java/Linux camp). It would be completely insane for me to go to the > market with a front end that is not ready for prime time. Swing sucks but they are technical "in the Java/Linux camp." Again, says a lot about whether or not I should value their opinion.
> The fact is that we are all told and know in theory that we should not > judge a book by its cover - but what do we do the first thing we some > beautiful person walk past us (even though we may know that they may be > a "bitch" - in terms of personality). This is why plastic surgery is so > much in vogue at the moment - because looks *Do* make a difference > morons (pull your head out of your techie arses). How much does it cost me to look at a beautiful woman and think, "She looks hot." How much does it cost me to buy a software package for my company because the GUI looks good? A smart business person will evaluate the entire package. This is a horrible analogy.
> Its sad - SWING has a lot of potential, but its still not ready for > prime time. Business people like me who have to make desicions and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > "patches" afterwords, but hey what you gonna do? - it's all we've got at > the moment - and it does er, the job anyway.. If your market is mainly Windows customers then you would be stupid to pick a technology whose main advantage is portability. Pick the right tool for the job. I'm not going to use a pick-up truck to be a taxi and I'm not going to use a town car to haul bricks.
I would at this time like to point out that my wife, who is not at all technology savvy, was asking me why some web sites you uses are horrible and others are not. She wondered if it had something to do with the .asp ending in the URLs. I asked her what she meant. She noticed that some sites had addresses ending in .html, others with .asp and others there was no pattern. The .html sites where kind of plain. The .asp sites looked as good as the other sites but they crashed all the time. I asked her for specific site names. All the sites she really likes that never crash are J2EE. The e-commerce sites she will never spend money on are the .asp sites. She doesn't trust them to work properly. She worries it will take her money and crash before it processes her order.
> In the mean time, what does the Java lobby do? - instead of > consolidating its efforts to delivering a killer blow, its got its head [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > keep playing with your new SWING gadget - for me, I'm off to make some > money in the real world. If there was no money to be made in HP-UX, AIX, Solaris, Linux, etc. then everyone would be in Microsoft right now.
Me, I like computers and programming. I've been doing it since before Bill Gates formed Microsoft. I have no preference to any language or operating system. Talk to anyone in finance and they will tell you it is unwise to put all your eggs in one basket. Diversify.
> So long suckers ...! Good luck. Although there is still plenty of money to be made out there so you don't really need it.
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lqualig@uku.co.uk - 11 Jun 2005 03:32 GMT > I would at this time like to point out that my wife, > who is not at all technology savvy, So your wife is not technically savvy. Okay, so let's go on.
> The .html sites where kind of plain. > The .asp sites looked as good as the > other sites but they crashed all the time. Really. Microsoft.com, eBay.com, Intel.com and others run IIS/ASP. They seem to work just fine. What are these sites that "crashed" and how was she able to come to this conclusion?
> I asked her for specific site names. Please do share the names of these sites that "crashed all the time."
> All the sites she really likes that never crash are J2EE. For someone who is not "technically savvy" she seems to have a talent for spotting a J2EE site. How exactly does one identify a site as being J2EE? Since I have yet to ever see a url that ends with "J2EE" how was a non-technically savvy person like your wife able to figure this out?
> The e-commerce sites she will never spend money > on are the .asp sites. She doesn't trust them to work > properly. She worries it will take her money and crash > before it processes her order. I'd love to see a list of these .ASP sites that keep crashing. I don't expect to get one though because you know and I know that this is all a bunch of BS.
"." - 14 Jun 2005 20:32 GMT > > I would at this time like to point out that my wife, > > who is not at all technology savvy, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Really. Microsoft.com, eBay.com, Intel.com and others run IIS/ASP. They > seem to work just fine. Microsoft, eBay and Intel run IIS/ASP. These are all sites typically frequented by technically savvy people. My wife would never be found on Microsoft or Intel. She has been on eBay but oddly enough, she is selling her wedding dress and it never occurred to post it on eBay. In other words, these are all sites she doesn't like going to and only goes there if she absolutely has to.
I find that technical savvy people tend to intuitively know how to navigate a web site. The people who test the sites tend to be technically savvy and therefore don't find the bugs someone like my wife will find.
> What are these sites that "crashed" and how was she able to come to this > conclusion? See below for a list of sites. How was she able to find to what conclusion? If you mean the conclusion that they were all IIS web sites then the answer is that she did not. She asked me why some sites crash and others do not. Oddly enough, I tried to show her what not to do to avoid the crash. That is just the way I think. I'm always looking for a work-around. My wife's attitude is, "I'll just not use that web site." She does not feel she should adapt to the web site.
> > I asked her for specific site names. > > Please do share the names of these sites that "crashed all the time." Didn't memorize them. She knows I work on eCommerce related software. She wanted to know why some of the sites she used crashed and how she could get around it. I asked her to show me the sites.
> > All the sites she really likes that never crash are J2EE. > > For someone who is not "technically savvy" she seems to have a talent > for spotting a J2EE site. How exactly does one identify a site as being > J2EE? Since I have yet to ever see a url that ends with "J2EE" how was > a non-technically savvy person like your wife able to figure this out? She did not. She showed me sites and asked what the difference was. All the sites that had URLs ending in .jsp she liked and never had a crash. All the sites with URLs ending in .asp crashed. There was one site that had URLs ending in .cfm. *I* noted that cfm is ColdFusion. ColdFusion supports JRun, WebSphere and WebLogic servers. Therefore it is J2EE.
I've worked with IIS, WebSphere, WebLogic, Oracle AS, JBoss, Tomcat, Sun Java Systems (aka iPlanet and Sun One), ATG Dynamo and a few others. If you know what you are looking for it is easy to figure out what systems are using IIS and which are using J2EE.
> > The e-commerce sites she will never spend money on are the .asp sites. > > She doesn't trust them to work properly. She worries it will take her [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > expect to get one though because you know and I know that this is all a > bunch of BS. The sites she liked (that I can remember):
http://www.bluefly.com http://www.jcrew.com http://bluenile.ca
I cannot remember the site that had URLs ending with .cfm. Sites that crash on her:
http://www.bluenile.com http://members.ucconline.com
The last site is a member only site so you will not be able to get on there to check it out. My wife will use the site to view the catalog but we drive to the showroom when we want to place an order.
I will admit there is one group of IIS sites that she has been reasonably happy with. This is automotive sites. She has been to Mini, BMW, Volvo and a few others. The vast majority of these sites are IIS/ASP but then these sites do not have shopping carts nor has she ever bought something from them.
There was one site I was not able to determine what technology they were using:
http://melochemonnex.com.
I was able to determine that http://www.omniture.com created the web site for Meloche Monnex and poking around Omniture I found a few screens that said something went wrong and a message is being sent to technical support. Oddly enough, you helped me determine that Omniture uses IIS/ASP. They list eBay as a custom development site they worked on.
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lqualig@uku.co.uk - 16 Jun 2005 19:08 GMT My point is that some of the busiest ecommerce sites in the world ( such as eBay.com and Dell.com ) are able to successfully run IIS/ASP to process BILLIONS of dollars worth of transactions each month.
Any web-problems that your wife encountered are not likely to be the result of IIS/ASP being inadequate for the job. It's more likely that sites like "members.ucconline.com" have bugs in their web-site.
Bjorn Borud - 17 Jun 2005 01:06 GMT [lqualig@uku.co.uk]
| My point is that some of the busiest ecommerce sites in the world ( | such as eBay.com and Dell.com ) are able to successfully run IIS/ASP to | process BILLIONS of dollars worth of transactions each month. for any sufficiently large company you may assume they'll be using anything and everything on the market. what is externally visible does not necessarily tell the whole story.
-Bjørn
Tris Orendorff - 17 Jun 2005 19:42 GMT > [lqualig@uku.co.uk] >| My point is that some of the busiest ecommerce sites in the world ( [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -Bjørn Yes, but it does show what they trust to be on the front lines of the battlefield.
 Signature Sincerely,
Tris Orendorff [Two antennae meet on a roof, fall in love and get married. The ceremony wasn't much, but the reception was excellent.]
Bjorn Borud - 18 Jun 2005 02:21 GMT [Tris Orendorff <triso@remove-me.cogeco.ca>]
| Yes, but it does show what they trust to be on the front lines of | the battlefield. still, I wouldn't read too much into it because there are a lot of factors that contribute to decide these choices and they aren't always about what is absolutely the best XYZ, but what works with some other infrastructural component or what you can get the cheapest/best/most developers/consultants/operations-engineers for.
-Bjørn
lqualig@uku.co.uk - 18 Jun 2005 17:00 GMT > still, I wouldn't read too much into it because there are > a lot of factors that contribute to decide these choices > and they aren't always about what is absolutely the best XYZ... That's because there are no absolutes. There is no database that is "absolutely" the best. That's why DB2, Oracle, SqlServer, Teradata, Informix and others exist. Same with OS's, web-servers, etc.
The choice is made on what is the "overall best" solution. Evidently when it comes to high volume ecommerce web-sites Windows based systems are preferred as the overall best solution.
Note - eBay does more unit and dollar volume than any other ecommerce site in the world.
Bjorn Borud - 18 Jun 2005 17:04 GMT [lqualig@uku.co.uk]
| Evidently when it comes to high volume ecommerce web-sites Windows | based systems are preferred as the overall best solution. I wish I could be as certain of things as you are.
-Bjørn
lqualig@uku.co.uk - 21 Jun 2005 01:28 GMT >> Evidently when it comes to high volume ecommerce >> web-sites Windows based systems are preferred >> as the overall best solution.
> I wish I could be as certain of things as you are. I'm not claiming that it's right or that it even makes sense. I certainly don't get it and I'm a Windows user. It's simply the way it is when it comes to ecommerce.
Bjorn Borud - 18 Jun 2005 03:02 GMT [Tris Orendorff <triso@remove-me.cogeco.ca>]
| Yes, but it does show what they trust to be on the front lines of | the battlefield. still, I wouldn't read too much into it because there are a lot of factors that contribute to decide these technology choices and they aren't always about what is absolutely the best XYZ, but what works with some other infrastructural component or what you can get the cheapest/best/most developers/consultants/operations-engineers for.
-Bjørn
steve - 09 Jun 2005 23:52 GMT > Here's a snippet I took of a Java SWING developers blog: <SSSSSSSSNNNNNIIIIPPPPPP>
TTTROL
Nick Malik [Microsoft] - 11 Jun 2005 22:02 GMT Troll posts like these are not welcome on any NG, regardless of which platform they slam.
Saying unconstructive things in a negative manner will not produce a positive result. Doing it anonymously shows how little you care about either community.
OP: If by this message, you are stating that you will be moving over to the .Net platform, I encourage you to pick up a book on manners _before_ you make the transition. Any request for assistance on a NG that carries your attitude will not produce a lot of favorable responses.
 Signature --- Nick Malik [Microsoft] MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not representative of my employer. I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a programmer helping programmers. --
> Here's a snippet I took of a Java SWING developers blog: > [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > > So long suckers ...! C-Services Holland b.v. - 13 Jun 2005 10:25 GMT > Troll posts like these are not welcome on any NG, regardless of which > platform they slam. ofcourse it helps that you quoted the ENTIRE troll post ;)
 Signature Rinze van Huizen C-Services Holland b.v.
Thomas Weidenfeller - 13 Jun 2005 10:40 GMT >> Troll posts like these are not welcome on any NG, regardless of which >> platform they slam. > > ofcourse it helps that you quoted the ENTIRE troll post ;) I think it helps to compare the headers and contents of
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d86lbl%24a0n%241%40nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs- infra.bt.com&output=gplain http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d858rm%24i0a%241%40nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs- infra.bt.com&output=gplain http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d7qq4r%24dbl%241%40nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs- infra.bt.com&output=gplain http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d81l2r%249du%244%40nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs- infra.bt.com&output=gplain
to get an idea about that particular troll. Especially, when taking the timing into account.
'Followup-To' set a group which I don't read :-)))
/Thomas
 Signature The comp.lang.java.gui FAQ: ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/NEWS.ANSWERS/computer-lang/java/gui/faq
opalpa@gmail.com - 19 Jun 2005 20:15 GMT I like Java guis and wish to mention that major focus of Java 6.0 is to get gui inconsistancies resolved. As a recommendation spending a week or week and a half learning and playing with java guis and reading about it helps make good guis without frustration.
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